whey protein VS soy protein

roberteboot

Just a quick question ive just bought some soy protein powder ive been using it for awhile now and ive seen pretty good results.But i was just wondering what the difference between it and whey protein is?Whey protein always seems to be recommend.Thanks in advance.

Guvnor

roberteboot wrote:

Just a quick question ive just bought some soy protein powder ive been using it for awhile now and ive seen pretty good results.But i was just wondering what the difference between it and whey protein is?Whey protein always seems to be recommend.Thanks in advance.

I'd prefer whey but have nowt against the soya. Protein is protein at the end of the day and it's the qty of it that counts not necessarily the sources.

Musashi

Found this on muscle and fitness.



animal-source proteins like eggs, whey and beef are generally superior to vegetarian sources like wheat, although soya is a notable exception. Eggs, milk and fish provide the all-time highest-quality protein, followed by beef, poultry, pork and then plant-based foods.
Since supplement companies use whey, egg or soya sources almost exclusively, it's tough to go wrong where protein quality is concerned when buying a protein powder or MRP. Yet soya products like tofu often have partial oestrogens like genistein, which are a mixed blessing for men who eat a lot of them. Some level of these antioxidant iso-flavones is very good for men and women alike, as they help fight prostate cancer, breast cancer and heart disease. Even so, some people have raised concerns about the effect of these isoflavones on hormone levels in men if excessive amounts of soya protein are consumed.
One study of Japanese men found that completely replacing meat (150 grams) with tofu (290 grams but same amount of overall protein) very slightly lowered their testosterone to oestrogen ratio. Yet the above quantity of soya is phenomenally high - the same as that found in almost four blocks of tofu or 90 grams of soya protein - and other studies suggest that even very large (but more realistic) amounts of soya have no effect on male testosterone levels.
Experts say about one-sixth of the above amount can provide tremendous benefits for most men, including a 70% drop in the incidence of prostate cancer according to a study of 225 men, without any of the above drawbacks. Nonetheless, vegetarian bodybuilders who are concerned about excess intake of partial oestrogens from soya-based protein powders can substitute other plant-based protein sources for some or all of the powder. (Navy beans combined with wild rice make a complete protein, for example.)

RonanC

Guvnor wrote:

Protein is protein at the end of the day and it's the qty of it that counts not necessarily the sources.

Good lord, no they're not!

Take 100g of a whey isolate vs 100g of egg protein a day and you'll see noticeable differences, not least on your frequent trips to the bathroom on the egg protein!!

roberteboot - assuming you're male, use whey as soya protein has been found to put a dampner on your testosterone levels.

See here for information on the different types of protein.

tunney

I was reading yesterday about the effects of the acidity of a persons blood on their rate of muscle loss. Was basically saying that an increased acidity of the blood leads to increased muscle loss, and from that I suppose you could say a reduced rate of muscle gain. Seemingly foods such as dairy and meat increase the acidity of your blood while plant based foods reduced it - with raisins having the greatest reductive effect. Would this not affect the effectiveness of whey vs soya protein?

RonanC

tunney wrote:

I was reading yesterday about the effects of the acidity of a persons blood on their rate of muscle loss. Was basically saying that an increased acidity of the blood leads to increased muscle loss, and from that I suppose you could say a reduced rate of muscle gain. Seemingly foods such as dairy and meat increase the acidity of your blood while plant based foods reduced it - with raisins having the greatest reductive effect. Would this not affect the effectiveness of whey vs soya protein?

If I understand your post correctly, by that rationale shouldn't vegitarians make the most efficient bodybuilders?

Where did you read it? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

tribble

tunney wrote:

Would this not affect the effectiveness of whey vs soya protein?

Whey and soya are both plants...

tribble

RonanC wrote:

If I understand your post correctly, by that rationale shouldn't vegitarians make the most efficient bodybuilders?

Where did you read it? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

I'm no bodybuilder (by a long shot) but even as a vegetarian I have more muscle than any of my friends...

RonanC

tribble wrote:

Whey and soya are both plants...

Whey is derived from cow's milk.

Guvnor

Ronan protein is protein and despite your views or that of blackstar labs qty is more important that the source.

Whey isolate is not the best protein on the planet and in fact whey protein concentrate 80% is a better option plus cheaper.

I deal with guys taking 500grams a day and some of whom are European level bodybuilders and none use WPI. They get their protein from a variety of sources including eggs.

kazzer

I tend to agree with Guvnor on this. I believe protein is protein at the end of the day. Just ensure that your protein is 'complete' and includes all the essential amino acids which are required for muscle growth. I dont really see a difference between someone who sips whey all day and someone who eats tuna and eggs all day - in terms of protein. I would rather go for wholesome high protein foods myself, with the odd whey/casein shake just to pick up the slack or convenience.

RonanC

Guvnor wrote:

Ronan protein is protein and despite your views or that of blackstar labs qty is more important that the source.

Whey isolate is not the best protein on the planet and in fact whey protein concentrate 80% is a better option plus cheaper.

I deal with guys taking 500grams a day and some of whom are European level bodybuilders and none use WPI. They get their protein from a variety of sources including eggs.

I just used WPI as an example.

I can't agree with your anecdotal evidence that all proteins are essentially the same.

Lets say that for arguments sake we're only talking about post-workout here. Concentrate, isolate or a blended source would be far more beneficial than a casein based whey for example, especially from a digestion point of view to take advantage of the 'anabolic window'.

Similarly, for those who are lactose intolerant the source would be important.

I'm not trying to knock you, as you obviously have a great deal of experience here, but (using your example) surely you cannot say that a person taking 500g daily of protein from a soy source vs the same amount of protein from red meat or egg would see the same results if "qty is more important than the source".

Are you a personal trainer/nutritionist? Genuinely interested in what you have to say.

Guvnor

Post workout pre workout makes no difference. Some are faster and some are slower to digest but what I said was it's the qty and not necessarily the sources that count. If you have a 200lb guy taking in 200grams of top quality nicely measured and timed in equal portions with a guy who gets 400grams of any protein he can who will do better?

I am involved in the nutriceutical industry and whey is one of our products as is casein no egg protein as the market is not as big and whey can be cheaper.

Back in the 70's guys like Draper, Arnold, Ferrigno, Viator, Pearl and many more only had so called poor protein sources available and they did okay. These guys were dowing tuna shakes with buttermilk and other vile crap but they were still in awesome shape.

FTR - BV is a crock the max BV any protein can have is 100+/- 4 so eggs, wpi or chicken it's all the same at the end of the day.

Guvnor

'Casein based whey'

Whey is whey and casein is casein. You mean a whey & casein mix?

RonanC

Guvnor wrote:

Post workout pre workout makes no difference. Some are faster and some are slower to digest but what I said was it's the qty and not necessarily the sources that count. If you have a 200lb guy taking in 200grams of top quality nicely measured and timed in equal portions with a guy who gets 400grams of any protein he can who will do better?

I am involved in the nutriceutical industry and whey is one of our products as is casein no egg protein as the market is not as big and whey can be cheaper.

Back in the 70's guys like Draper, Arnold, Ferrigno, Viator, Pearl and many more only had so called poor protein sources available and they did okay. These guys were dowing tuna shakes with buttermilk and other vile crap but they were still in awesome shape.

FTR - BV is a crock the max BV any protein can have is 100+/- 4 so eggs, wpi or chicken it's all the same at the end of the day.

Oops, meant to say casein based protein.

Accept what you're saying about Draper et al, but there are many recent studies showing that post workout, a faster disgesting protein is more optimal. In terms of taking in protein at any other time of day, I'd agree with most of what you are saying.

I presume you've tried a high quality WPI, and from my own personal experience, it causes much less GI stress. For someone who's first purchase of protein powder was H&B's horrendous Milk and Egg protein, this was indeed a blessing!

Guvnor

Never used a wpi as it's the same protein as in a wpc just a few more percent as in 6-7% without the beneficial factors from the fats and more than twice the price. If you could buy 10kgs of 75% whey unflavoured for 75 euro or spend 225-250 euro on 90% wpi which would you choose?

Brands vary so it is possible to get a good egg and milk mix but some are muck same can also be said for the wpi's as well.

RonanC

By attempting to espouse the neglible and relatively insignificant benefits of fat in WPC you're not doing this discourse any favours and come across like a salesperson in a Tony Quinn outlet. Sure why not throw some fish oil into a post-workout shake for even more "beneficial fats"?

The figures you quote for the comparison reek of scaremongering. 25 euro for a kilo of WPC? I can get a 2lb tub for 16euro. Slightly off topic, but are you associated with TMOF perchance?

Given that this is the Fitness section and you yourself state that you work with individuals who consume 500g protein daily, I am approaching this from a purely bodybuilding perspective and not your average Joe Soap eating 100g protein daily so hear me out.

You originally stated that all proteins were essentially the same. Lets compare whey protein to supplemental casein. Whey (we'll call it a fast protein) will be rapidly digested, absorbed and assimilated by the body in a relatively short period of time. Casein (a slow protein) tends to curdle in the stomach and creates a conglomerate mass in the gut that slowly moves through the GI tract, taking significantly longer to break down and absorb. This results in lower but steadier levels of amino acids entering the bloodstream.

Since anyone attempting to build muscle needs higher levels of amino acids with greater frequency than the average individual, s/he must eat regularly throughout the day. Intuitively, it makes greater sense that a fast protein would be preferential based on rate of uptake. For this reason alone, a bodybuilder would not want to make a slow protein such as casein the backbone of their diet.

Also, the more energy your body spends on digestion, the less energy is has for muscle recuperation and building. This is the reason that research has shown whey to stimualte more protein synthesis than casein.

If you do find fault with any of what I have outlined (and I am by no means an expert on the subject) I would hope that you refute my points with more than (to paraphrase) "what worked for our forefathers is good enough for us". Research on sports science, nutrition, etc has advanced significantly in the intervening years and would be pointless to ignore.

Guvnor

We would all like to know where you can buy a 2lb tub of whey protein isolate for e16. If you feel that e25 for a kilo of wpi is scaremongering then sobeit. If you think the fat in wpc's is useless sobeit.

Casein is in your opinion so is a sub standard protein source. Oh dear :rolleyes:

RonanC

Guvnor wrote:

We would all like to know where you can buy a 2lb tub of whey protein isolate for e16.

Do a search online for Substance WPI (Juicy Watermelon is my personal favourite) from any decent American retailer.

Guvnor wrote:

If you think the fat in wpc's is useless sobeit.

Explain to me the benefits of fats post workout from the point of view of uptake/absorbtion and how beneficial this neglible amount would be.

Guvnor wrote:

Casein is in your opinion so is a sub standard protein source. Oh dear :rolleyes:

Read my post again and highlight anything I said that would lead you to this conclusion. Personally I take 200g of cottage cheese before bed due to, as I said in my post: it takes "significantly longer to break down and absorb. This results in lower but steadier levels of amino acids entering the bloodstream". Aside from the fact that this should illustrate my main point that all proteins are not the same, it's perfect for night-time.

Guvnor

Your Substance WPI by PrimaSource yields 84% protein and costs $23.99 from 1fast at present that 18.50 in euros and that's for 908 grams which means a kilo will cost 20.37 euros. Yet I am the scaremongerer? Obviously you get it shipped to Limerick for free and don't pay any duty on it? Let us in on the secret mate cause if we could get our hands on WPI for e16 all in we'd defo be on the pigsback!

Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to educate you on protein not that you need any. With your knowledge you will be a big force in the strength and bodybuilding fields should you choose either path.

roberteboot

So instead of responding to his arguments,which seem pretty well balanced and fair,you resort to sarcasm?

RonanC

Guvnor wrote:

Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to educate you on protein not that you need any. With your knowledge you will be a big force in the strength and bodybuilding fields should you choose either path.

I noticed that you didn't address my earlier query as to whether you were affiliated with TMOF so I checked your profile and saw that it is your home page. Fair enough, and I don't see anything wrong with defending your one of your products but to remain so indignant in the face of plenty of evidence to suggest that all proteins are not the same is disappointing to say the least.

You singularly and spectacularly failed to address any of my points highlighted above and resorted to the last refuge of those who know that they have backed themselves into a corner yet are not noble enough to admit that they may be wrong - sarcasm (quite churlish and petty sarcasm too). You act as if knowledge of the extant literature concerning bodybuilding and nutrition is something to be ashamed of.

I think I have cogently argued my thesis that all proteins are not one and the same, which is the only point of contention I have with you. If you want to discuss Substance WPI or "beneficial fats" from WPC I suggest you start another thread as it bears no relevance to the one at hand.

roberteboot - hope that this thread has provided you with the information that you originally sought.