Fight Club: Propoganda?

Excelsior

Just re-watching the Patriot recently- which is an appallingly bad movie. Its portrayal of British soldiers as 18th Century NAZIs and its seeming misunderstanding of the word "patriotic", which appears to have been garbled into something meaning, "vengeful" are the two primary gripes. Its overlong and it beautifies war and an imagined version of the birth of America too. It is really pointlessly violent and altogether is a piece of propoganda.

Fight Club, that ode to violence, barely repressed homoeroticism and the rejection of consumer capitalism, it could be argued, (perhaps) is just a better made, better scripted, and far better acted movie of the same vague genre.
No, don't get me wrong, I like the movie, and I love the book (and all Palahniuk's books- waiting for Choke) but it does glorify a certain NAZI-esque Ideal of Man.
And it certainly endorses the violent destruction of a society that it perceives as decadent and self-destructive, unfulfilling to its members both spiritually and in more concrete terms.
Fight Club mirrors the Patriot in its interpretation of the USA.
It is a glorious thing to die for the destuction of the evil empire.
Which movie am I talking about? The Patriot with regards to Britain, or Fight Club with regards to America?
Violence is not only valid, it is cleansing. If you lose a member of your family, gain "closure" by avenging the death!
If you feel your father failed you, re-locate your masculinity by fighting other men in similar circumstances.
In the Patriot, the British are often faceless, character-less murderers. In Fight Club, the corporate fat-cats, the shapers of the sick society rarely even get on screen; we don't get to see the women who are raw material for the soap, we don't get to see the families that endure Tyler's pornographic editing. Except for the Police Chief who almost gets his manhood cut off, (see; Tyler feels as if his manhood has never been given a chance to establish itself, and so he threatens his enemies with losing theirs- vengenace,) and the guy who worked in the store. But he wasn't even a corporate fat cat, or someone who was revelling in consumerist decadence.

There are a lot of similarities between the two movies. Fight Club; what is the actual core message?

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My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

ObeyGiant

The core message?
I guess the message I got from Fight Club is that "entertainment" has evolved from a distraction into something people attempt to derive entire philosphies from.

I think you just proved it right.

Hecate

I definatly wouldnt class fight club as propaganda (propangda from who exactly?)

It's just a damn funny, inciteful and clever film that was destined to appear at sometime anyway.

StarScream

we all know what the core message in fight club is......in the words of tyler durden:
"self improvement is masturbation"

Klay

Excellent film 'n all! Powerful messages too...I have a friend who got really into all the philosophical **** in it. He's been scratching quotes from it onto school desks and stuff!

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"(Shaft error to Klay[b-airlock140.esatclear.ie]: Erection reset by queer)"

[This message has been edited by Klay (edited 25-05-2001).]

Yossarian

An excellant film.
Only when you have worked in a corporate enviroment can you realise that "self improvement is masturbation".

Excelsior

I must have made my point poorly, or perhaps this should be on Humanities...
but the suppossed philosophy of the film is perhaps (!) in fact a sublimation of a philosophy that is extremely right wing in its nature, bordering on the Fascist in its portrayal of an ideal of Masculinity and the endorsement of violence as cleansing, worthy and valid, and at its core holds the position of Man as center of family, center of community and center of society.


I mean, if it is as great a film as every seems to think it is, (as evidenced on the numerous "Whats your favourite film?" threads) then there must be more meaning to it, more impact for you, than simple entertainment?

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My Adolescent website:
http://www.iol.net/~mullent

Slydice

I LIKE CAKE!!!!

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

I agree with Excel in principle- but I dislike the male ideology being pigeon-holed into "Nazi propaganda". Numerous regimes have trumpeted patriachal models- the Nazis certainly weren't the first(think it might have been the Spartans...).

It's worth noting that the director David Fincher is a notorious male chauvanist in film-making terms. His female characters are often vapid and make little contribution to the advancement of the plot-line. After watching Seven, Fight Club and a number of his B-offerings, that much is clear to me.

I would hardly describe the film as propaganda though- it's primary purpose is to entertain- discerning audiences who understand the film's subtle machismo and masochistic tendencies have every right to reject the film's message. The film portrays these ideals from a character view- propaganda is generally espoused from a global point of view.

Having said that- I actually found it refreshing that Fight Club addressed a pertinent point- the immaculate fall from grace of the working man. With women occupying more middle management positions than men (at least in the US)- the male's traditional province in business is no longer special (not that it ever was- middle management? ugh...).

The film from my point of view portrays how the redefinition of this male role brings initial satisfaction before it gets way out of hand. The film's ambiguous ending works brilliantly, and leaves the final outcome open to interpretation by the viewer.

It should at the end of the day, be viewed more for entertainment's sake than for any insidious messages the film might bring across. It's interesting to note, that while A ClockWork Orange sparked copycat crime all over the Western world in pockets, Fight club has done no such thing.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Veritas Veritas Veritas=

PS- The Patriot was the worst film I've seen in a VERY long time that made the Hollywood A-list. Mel Gibson continues to grossly misrepresent history in the Patriot just as he did in Braveheart. The similarity between the two films is staggering- and exactly why both films are incredibly poor. I could rant about how crap this film was- but then I'd be giving it more attention than it deserved to be honest.

JustHalf

Put simply... Fight Club questions you sexuality.

the celtic tiger

Why do we need it to be anything more than entertaining. I really enjoyed this film, a main reason was the twist at the end which i did not expect.

Other films that i love, and have no hidden meaning:

DIE HARD
THE ROCK


.

There doesn't have to be hidden meaning.

azezil

IMO people don't give a sh!t about the philosophy of the film, it's entertaining, it engages the mind and worth a watch!

I douth many people would actually apply it to every day life, like who the hell wants to live in a kip like that, n do you really think people would voulenterally give up their mtv's n mobile phones etc. ... i think not.

ps. b4 anyone mentions those 'servivor' programs, bear in mind they have the incentive of a large cash reward!

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"just because you're not paraniod, doesn't mean they're not after you!"

Belisarius

Intresting thread if possibly taken to excess a bit

As for Fight club you mention the anonimity of the protagonists ,I mean this is true of nearly all films , The characters exist as a focus point for the fists of fury of the main character , I know its cliched *much like the entire film* but its a case of John Smith :Henchman of Dr Evil from Austin powers .The skipping over of the character of the protagonists is indeed to Glorify that of the heroes and to alleviate any residual moral complications that might ensue as for the wole Cult of the male aspect , It wasnt the Nazis idea in the first place , as was pointed out , Its origins lie in classical times


What I dont accept though is the Patriot as propoganda...that was nothing short of a farce . It really was one of the funnier films of the year , I still have that scene in my mind where Mel Slaughters a regiment of Brits in the forest with nothing but a Tommahawk I ****ed my pants laughing at it in the cinema , It wasnt propoganda rather just laughably blatant Bias . As one commentator mentioned dubbed it at the time "Lethal Musket" would have been a far more apt name in my opinion .Hilarious watch with friends , but dont forget to cover the floor in newspaper first

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Shrewgar!

Blitzkrieger

I think Belisarius is right - it's too much of a Hollywood movie to be taken seriously. It's almost like they have to qualify Tyler Turden at the end by saying "Oh, by the way - he's insane". Though I've read the book and it happens there too, it seems whenever there's something controversial in a book/film it's always done by the bad guy and/or an insane person. It's like a normal person can't do something ab-normal.

I also think you're reading into the Nazi propaganda side of it. I think it's more of a day-dream for Palunichuk ("Wouldn't it be cool if......") fleshed out into a movie. I don't think it has any deeper meaning. It has a load of pop-psychology crap because that's popular in the states now.

Personally all I got out of the movie (apart from entertainment) was that I shouldn't spend all my life in a job I hate to buy crap I don't need, and I really wouldn't miss TV.

Oh - p.s. Those frames of Pitt spliced into the film are really annoying

[This message has been edited by Blitzkrieger (edited 26-05-2001).]

Shinji

I liked The Patriot; I liked Fight Club. You're right in ways in what you say, but it's not as profound as you might think.

Yes, both films are about the defeating of an Evil Empire; defeating some (fairly faceless) enemy that symbolises all that is wrong to the central characters.

This is called "conflict". It's the basis of most drama, and certainly not unique to Fight Club or The Patriot.

Victor

Of course, the whole point of the movie is that it creates the fascist ideal, but then destroys that ideal. The word fascist comes from Facsio di Caombatti (spelling) - a Fighting Force, part of Mussolini's philosophy. Of course, most of the Italian fascists only really wanted to pretend they had the 'great' Roman Empire back and parade around all day and then proceed to the cantina. Of course, it very quickly grew a much darker side.

Whatever about the 'Evil Empire', it also disproves some of Tyler's ideas.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blitzkrieger:
Oh - p.s. Those frames of Pitt spliced into the film are really annoying</font>

They are creating an effect. Setting you up for a fall, creating some humour along the way, Which is what the whole movie is about.

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Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

Hecate

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The word fascist comes from Facsio di Caombatti (spelling) - a Fighting Force, part of Mussolini's philosophy</font>

actually it derives from the latin word 'fasces'; a word given to an axe wrapped in reeds that was the symbol of Roman power, subsequently adopted by mussolini's blackshirts (since they thought they were reviving the glory of Rome).

anyway, Fight club is still funny as hell,
but I wouldnt go basing a philosophy of life on it

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JustHalf:
Put simply... Fight Club questions your sexuality.</font>

In a Bush/Cheney kind of way.

Remember, "Real men don't conserve!"

Greenbean

Can't it just be put down to a well-known and understood concept of male-bonding? A surivial trait necessary for the clan orientated mind to trust those fighting along-side one another. No big deal, it doesn't mean homoeroticism. If male bonding involves some sort of male love its a non-sexual one - just a natural and helpfull mechanism.

I go with the idea that Fight Club is a "what if" situation and it appeals in that going back to the good life way, when all was simple and when men could be men as is natural.

I couldn't care less if it makes men ogres (and this is maybe something boiling in the back of the mind of the author), thats just the way we were built and its the way that makes sense; cue statistics about the confusion of current day males in society and suicide rates; cue pointing out the dominant female etc etc.