Capital of Culture 2005

whatalanger

Does anyone actually think that it is going to be a success?

Blitzkrieger

No. They actively destroyed just about everything that made Cork unique.

Fysh

Blitzkrieger wrote:

No. They actively destroyed just about everything that made Cork unique.

Just out of curiosity, what would you have said made Cork unique back in days of yore? (As in, I've only lived here 2 years so I haven't seen much change while I've been here, aside from the demolition of Henry's).

dahamsta

whatalanger wrote:

Does anyone actually think that it is going to be a success?

The organisers. And even if it isn't, they'll say it was.

Be interested in a bit of expansion of your opinion too Blitz. What do you feel they destroyed?

adam

Tiriel

whatever about success or failure I think this thread is typical of the attitude of Cork people.. and I do admit myself included. I had to do a dissertation on St. Patrick Street in Cork and it involved meeting a lot of people on the Corporation and the City Council. All of these really do want to improve Cork City, economically and culturally.

The work they have done in my opinion has completely altered the appearance of St. Patrick Street.. but it didn't change anything else. One person described it as a four star hotel for the drunks.. for example. It has however given us something to be a bit more proud of when we see it on the news for example. Do you not remember what it was like?!!!

The Capital of Culture so far has lacked serious corporate interest, but it is improving day by day. Some of the things they have planned sound interesting.. others are just thrown in to fill up the schedule. for eg. holding the Munster Fleadh Ceoil.. I mean wtf??

Either way.. I think if it cleans up the streets of the city, people will be left with a more positive image, and the money won't have been wasted

dahamsta

Cork_girl wrote:

mental associations

Tiriel

:rolleyes: better?!!!

Nukem

The place will look better and kinda does at d mo but as far as the culture capital of europe HA.I mean i havent seen anything really properly advertised except the film festival and thats always that way.What culture,where -road workx culture??????

Was telling someone from Tipp that we were the Culuture capital in Europe and they went Really(they didnt know) - Its very poorly promoted everywhere as far as i can gather.

And my god i hate those light in Patricks St :mad:

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Nukem

OK dave.But if no one knows about it except Cork people then what good is it.What im saying is we are the culture capital of EUROPE and people in our Province dont know its on so how the hell does EUROPE know its on.
Flights and all that. You dont just start advertising when it starts do you???

By the way next year is 10ish weeks away.

Tiriel

Nukem wrote:

What im saying is we are the culture capital of EUROPE and people in our Province dont know its on so how the hell does EUROPE know its on.
.

it's been on the news.. it's been in the papers..

it was a national competition held a couple of years ago. Dublin had the title in 1990 and Templebar was the main result of it..

The Examiner had a supplement on it there about 2 weeks go with a programme of all events organised so far for each month next year.
People don't know about it because they have no interest in it. The title of it "Capital of Culture" imo is bit off-putting.. I mean think of Rome, Paris, etc. how can Cork compare? But, Cork has a great community spirit and that is becoming more evident in recent times. It's a great local area even with the skangers!!!

sure we'd have nothin to give out about if they weren't cruisin about!!

Nukem

I stand corrected about advertising!!!! But i thinkthey could really push d boat out.TV adds and all that but also are proving my point;we arent that cultural.Granted there are some of the most oldest churchs chapels and stuff here out of Europe(not kidding)
But i always thought of Cork as a social place rather than a place of culture
Like i love coming home from abroad to Cork its a nice city as it goes Majority of people are nice and nearly everyone wants to enjoy themselves.

Suppose thats our culture

Tiriel

Nukem wrote:

I stand corrected about advertising!!!! But i thinkthey could really push d boat out.TV adds and all that but also are proving my point;we arent that cultural.Granted there are some of the most oldest churchs chapels and stuff here out of Europe(not kidding)
But i always thought of Cork as a social place rather than a place of culture
Like i love coming home from abroad to Cork its a nice city as it goes Majority of people are nice and nearly everyone wants to enjoy themselves.

Suppose thats our culture

exactly. as places go.. Cork really does feel like home!! It's just got a good ol' vibe goin on!!
As far as City of Culture.. their budget is extremely limited so don't be expecting any tv ad's anyday soon!

Nukem

Thats wheat i am on about, a budget understanable ok but i dont want to see all the hard work done to the city and undermined by the fact that no one really outside the county wont know about it beacuse of funds !!!!!!

My opinion is - Cork is class,always has been & always will be;
just want to see it as the real Irish capital

Imposter

Nukem wrote:

But if no one knows about it except Cork people then what good is it.What im saying is we are the culture capital of EUROPE and people in our Province dont know its on so how the hell does EUROPE know its on.

Has anyone been to any of the other capitals of culture? Here's the list since 2000 in case the overwhelming amount of advertising passed you all by

2000
Avignon, Bergen, Bologna, Brussels, Cracow, Helsinki, Prague, Reykjavik and Santiago de Compostela

2001
Porto, Rotterdam

2002
Bruges, Salamanca

2003
Graz

2004
Genova, Lille


source

Hagar

Cork - Capital of Culchies 2005 - Visit "Langerland" Themepark...
Cork - Capital of Ireland Never.

damien

Cork_girl wrote:

whatever about success or failure I think this thread is typical of the attitude of Cork people..

Don't make generalisations.

All of these really do want to improve Cork City, economically and culturally.

And the mother bear that accidently suffocates her cub has the best intentions too. Well meaning people have caused wars and large scale misery throughout history. For something as important as the main street of Cork they really should have created more than a large patio.

Patrick Street is fugly. It seems to be taken from "Hard Times" by Charles Dickens. All stone and grey. It is lifeless and without a soul. This being the centrepiece of Cork hosting the capital of culture is shameful.

All this talk about lack of corporate investment is finger pointing and nothing more. Culutre is an attitude not a remodeling contract. You can't buy culture but this is what's happening. Poor planning and not understanding the subject now results in a filthy patio called the "New Patrick Street". How nice over a million was spent on this so that the homeless people that sleep there everynight have something more pleasing to the eye to wake up to on a cold December morning.

LiamLawlor

whatalanger wrote:

Does anyone actually think that it is going to be a success?

It will be a minor success in that Cork gets cleaned up but could have been a lot more successful if the committee allowed people from outside Cork get involved and didn't waste all their initial funds paying extremely high salaries to the choosen few.

Corporate sponsourship should have started about a year ago but word round the camp-fire is that the person responsible for getting in the corporates hasn't a clue but is 'very well connected' and part of the Crawford Gallary, arty-farty set.

Welcome to Ireland - 21st Century!

simu

Imposter wrote:

Has anyone been to any of the other capitals of culture? Here's the list since 2000 in case the overwhelming amount of advertising passed you all by

2000
Avignon, Bergen, Bologna, Brussels, Cracow, Helsinki, Prague, Reykjavik and Santiago de Compostela

2001
Porto, Rotterdam

2002
Bruges, Salamanca

2003
Graz

2004
Genova, Lille


source

I was in Rotterdam in 2001. They had some good art exhibitions on there. Still, Rotterdam is no Paris or Rome. In fact, it's quite ugly as much of it was destroyed in WW2. The cultural capital is more of an aspirational title than a factual one.

I've been to Bruges and Brussels as well and I spent a year studying in Lille, though not while they were cultural capitals. They're all a lot nicer and livelier in cultural terms than Cork imo. In fact, I'm constantly amazed at how the average Cork person seems to take pride in being ignorant (I am from Cork myself btw although I do not feel at home there).

Tiriel

damien.m wrote:

Don't make generalisations.

.

didn't mean to but just giving my opinion based on the research I did on the streets talking to people.

damien

Cork_girl wrote:

didn't mean to but just giving my opinion based on the research I did on the streets talking to people.

What was the sample size of this survey ?

Tiriel

no matter what answer I give to that question damien.m you are only going to compare it to the entire population of Cork. But for argument sake I interviewed approx. 300 over a 4 month period.

damien.m wrote:

Poor planning and not understanding the subject now results in a filthy patio called the "New Patrick Street". .

if u think it's a filthy patio now.. what did u think of the street before it was redeveloped? honestly? I mean at least now it is safe for physically disabled users, it has a decent footpath and appropriate phone-boxes. They have made it a hell uva lot more user-friendly than it was. And yes, I do think it needs a bit more greenery than the odd stick tree.. but overall.. it's a massive improvement.

As for the culture aspect of Cork, ( Culutre is an attitude not a remodeling contract. You can't buy culture but this is what's happening. ) Cork doesn't need to buy culture. It did however need a facelift. Culture is inherent in the people of Cork, it may not be in the form of the arts.. but it is alive and kicking

deRanged

I really like the new Patrick street - I'm even a fan of the lights.

If that's the only thing I get out of the city of culture, it'll almost be worth it.

SantaHoe

I was down in Cork last week, thought it looked lovely... not at all what I expected
And the only way we'd get funky streetlights like that here in Dublin is if some joyrider crashed into one.
I think it's nice to see something unusual like that... God forbid every town in Ireland ends up looking exactly alike

dahamsta

Have to say I'm with Cork_girl on this Damien. When I first saw Pana from the bridge end I thought it was horrendous, with the lights looking like gallows that we could hang those responsible from, however I have to take that back now because I actually enjoy walking down the street now it's nearly finished. Even the lights are pretty nifty now they've added the flourescents on the pavement side.

That being said, you were generalising about Cork people Cork_girl. We certainly fit a profile but we were only four posts into the thread when you lobbed the whole city into a category (which we can only guess at). And two of those posts were looking for more detail from Blitzkrieger.

It's interesting that he never followed up on that btw. Does he not know what made Cork unique?

adam

damien

Cork_girl wrote:

no matter what answer I give to that question damien.m you are only going to compare it to the entire population of Cork.

If you go and make an absurd generalisation like the one you did about the attitude of Cork people then you will get asked for conclusive proof. Withdraw your statement or present better facts.

if u think it's a filthy patio now.. what did u think of the street before it was redeveloped?

I thought it was terrible and it still is, now it's just a a million pound flat area in the centre of Cork that more easily displays the grime and scum that a small city like Cork can generate. When I heard they were going to remodel Patrick Street I welcomed it. Now I think it was a terrible waste of resources.

That was a serious amount of cash they spent that could have been used so much better. What's so unique about the street now ? What is of interest on the street ? There is nothing of cultural interest on it. There is nothing remotely aesthetic about it. It's a dirty grey slab.

I mean at least now it is safe for physically disabled users, it has a decent footpath and appropriate phone-boxes.

It already had appropriate phone boxes. That's a telecom providers issue anyway. Using your argument the runway in Cork airport is also safe for physically disabled users too because its a hulking piece of flat concrete. But Patrick Street is not very safe.

If they actually researched how to make it inclusive for all users they would have designed it with a better surface, they would have designed it to have better pedestrian flow to take into account less abled people and the elderly. There would have been better markings for the visually impaired. They would have designed the parking and taxi parking systems to include the needs of those in wheelchairs.

They would have actually planned the conversion of the street so that it didn't become impossible to use during the transition. Do you realise how dangerous it was for almost 12 months for the less abled ? It was practically a no-go area. Any kind of intelligence or hiring people with any decent experience should have made them think about the needs of people during the transition not after.

They have made it a hell uva lot more user-friendly than it was.

No, they just made it flat, that doesn't mean it's user friendly. It's means its more ambulatory.

it's a massive improvement.

The only massive thing about it is the how big the shambles of creating it is. It's an improvement in the way that taking one step forward is, not in the way taking a giant leap is. This is what the City Council have decided is the centrepiece of Cork life for the next few decades. It's like every other bloody street in the country.

It's like asking someone to build a website that defined the cultural spirit of Cork and they use FrontPage 97 templates to do it.

Cork doesn't need to buy culture. It did however need a facelift. Culture is inherent in the people of Cork, it may not be in the form of the arts.. but it is alive and kicking

But not on Patrick Street. Not in anything that the Capital of Culture is planning. The issue with those planning all this Capital of Culture stuff is that they do not understand Cork and it's culture or anything to do with the arts whatsoever and they think they can fix it all with cash and then when it's not working they complain about lack of corporate investment.

Giving Cork a facelift is gand, making this facelift the centrepiece and the main monetary investment to celebrate Cork being a culture capital is just plain stupid.

Tiriel

dahamsta wrote:

That being said, you were generalising about Cork people Cork_girl. We certainly fit a profile but we were only four posts into the thread when you lobbed the whole city into a category (which we can only guess at). And two of those posts were looking for more detail from Blitzkrieger.

adam

yes I did jump in there but I was only basing it on what I had heard.. and I didn't intend the comment to cause such an uproar!! I do feel that people are very negative about the city, I mean in the Limerick forum recently someone (I can't remember tbh) was complaining about how outsiders talked about Limerick city and referred to it as stab city.. well as far as I can see Cork people do that to themselves a lot more than other places!! and it's such a pity. again.. I know this can be read as generalising but please believe me it is only my opinion. ok!!

Damien.m - I am not gettin into this with you. I simply do not agree with you and there are too many flaws in your argument to even get started! For one.. just to back myself up.. the paving is not grey. They used 5 different types of stone of different origins and shades. Please just agree to differ. Don't wanna fight on this one.

damien

So, you refuse to get into this but at the same time counter all that I said by saying the street isn't grey because it has 5 shades of grey. Yeah, makes sense.

Raskolnikov

I don't know, I like the revamped Patrick's St. A nice wide open boulevard with adequate lighting and plenty of room to walk around on. The only problem that I have is that they've done feck all to promote cycle lanes in the city.

dudara

I too like the new Patrick Street. It does have flaws, and the state of the street during the construction works was terrible, but it is a vast improvement and is quite attractive overall.

The things I don't like are
1. The paving stones are not filled in correctly. Sometimes when I wear heels, they get caught betweeen the paving stones. This is a problem anywhere in the city where they've laid new stones, it's happened to me in Carey's Lane, Olive Plunkett Street and Pana. I've also seen this ahppen to 60 year old women as well. I'm just waiting for the compo claims to start.
2. The particular shade (shades for Cork Girl ) they've chosen for the street are stained and dirty already. The combinations of gum, fags, spit and puke are already ddoing their damage.
3. The litter boxes leak this horrible brown goo which is contributing to staining the footpaths.

However, I like the overall effect and the broadening of pana. I like the new taxi rank positions, although they should have installed a queueing system as well. I like the new bus shelters, especially the ones near Eason's that incorporate a phone box. I love the lighting. But more greenery is needed to just lighten the whole effect.

Now as to Cork being the City of Culture, I just don't know. So far, I feel that there hasn't been enough promotion. Now that the Gluckman Gallery has opened in UCC, let's see what that can add to the list. Let's just wait and see.

BTW I have to agree with the comment on bicycle lanes, there's a severe lack of them in the city

dahamsta

dudara wrote:

Sometimes when I wear heels...

A/S/L? Heh.*

Was talking to The Mammy about this the other day, she seems to think that it's pretty aesthetically pleasing too, but has reservations about accessibility and some design problems. Things like footpath edges being badly laid out and stuff, things that should have been spotted early on. Didn't notice them meself, have to say, but then I'm a selfish sod.

I like toddling over towards Waterstone for a book, wandering into HMV for a CD, having a pint outside the Chateaux, and dropping into Easons for my monthly copy of Wired. I find the whole dawdle a very relaxing experience. You certainly couldn't say that about the old Pana.

adam

*Alternative smart comment: "Me too."

Nukem

Heard something very interesting fomr someone the other day. Time is running short to the Culture 05 window and Oliver Plunkett st is in Sh+t.
"get the pavings down and make them look ok and we will fix them in 06 properly"
Dont't know if its true but there is inadequte support under the pavings and they dont have enough time to do it so they are botchin the job(TYPICAL)
Also a quick note:Walked from the top of Barracks st to the bottom and no bins what the Fu*k that is a main st with loads of chippers...etc....
That is goin to be an attraction for the Culture Capital visitors isnt it?????

dahamsta

Course there's also the School of Music and School of Art. Neither will be ready in time.

So we'll have a Capital of Culture with most of the Culture in rag order.

adam

Fysh

Given how this thread is progressing :

1)I agree that Patrick Street needed remodelling, and I think that what they did was a bit of a botched job to say the least. The pavement is far too narrow in some areas, the open spaces feel a bit pointless (since there's nothing to fill them except buskers), and there's not enough greenery. It's an improvement on what it was, but mainly because it used to be bloody horrible. Shame they didn't fix half the streets leading off Patrick street (eg Carey's lane, where the drains constantly stink) while they were at it.

2)I don't think the Capital Of Culture is going to end up as anything other than a shambles, because the city looks inconsistent at best (eg the work near the FAS office by the river where the pavement's been broken and dangerous ever since I can remember). Other problems such as the lack of adequate bin provision and the aftermath of the city's nightlife have not been addressed (we need more bins and a regular cleaning service, among other things)

3)I agree with the opinion previously expressed that Cork people seem quite uninterested in the idea of being a capital of culture. I find it amazing that in a city with two colleges and a student population well in excess of 10,000, the place feels, well, provincial. It doesn't bear any kind of comparison to other cities that should be similar, such as Galway. And we can make excuses for it, but what it boils down to is that in too many cases, people just don't care. I'd also like to take this opportunity to strike out against the notion that cork is a really friendly place; on average the friendliest people here are (in my experience, your mileage may vary etc) those who have either spent significant time abroad or who are originally from another country anyway.

4)"Culture is inherent in the people of Cork, it may not be in the form of the arts.. but it is alive and kicking" - What, exactly, does this mean? Culture in Cork is present to an extent - there are historical buildings, the opera house, galleries, and the Kino. However, most Cork natives I've met have been markedly uninterested in culture. Unless you're talking about dance music and clubbing, which is nightlife rather than culture. Care to explain further, given that we disagree?

5)Cycle lanes. God, how I'd like to have them. As a cyclist, I get given out to if I'm on the road (usually by taxi drivers) and if I'm on the pavement (usually by skangers with prams the size of a golf cart).

treefingers

i really like the new look patricks street. even the lights

although, i'm living with a swedish student at the moment and when i asked him what he thought about the city, he said that most of the centre was dirty and run-down. doesn't like the place at all. i never took any notice of it until he said it, but the city really doesn't look nice at all these days.

although it will be a big improvment i think when oliver plunket st. and the bus station are done. especially the bus station. that building used to look awful...

simu

Is Patrick Street finished? I thought it was to be pedestrianised completely.

Fysh

treefingers wrote:

although it will be a big improvment i think when oliver plunket st. and the bus station are done. especially the bus station. that building used to look awful...

It should look good, but then again so should Patrick St. and we all know what happened there. I think the fact that work on the bus station only started about a month ago shows just how poorly the entire thing has been planned. Particularly if there's any truth to the idea mentioned before, to "just get it done" in time for 2005 and actually making a proper job of it later.

Feh.

Amnesiac_ie

Has anyone been to the Glucksman Art Gallery in UCC yet? As far as I'm aware, the Capital of Culture was a major factor behind the realisation of this project.

treefingers

yeah i was in there. its a really cool building. some nice paintings as well, especially the modern american art section (think thats what its called) on the top floor....

Tiriel

damien.m wrote:

So, you refuse to get into this but at the same time counter all that I said by saying the street isn't grey because it has 5 shades of grey. Yeah, makes sense.

ok. here are 2 pics. maybe I' m daft.. but there are 5 different types of stone used throughout the newly developed Patrick St. These vary in shades, some include red tones, etc. yeah, the street paving is continuous in a way.. maybe that is what u mean.. but there are differentiations in colour, texture etc. fair enough if u don't agree.

Nukem

Think the red offset is kinda nice.Takes some of the grey away and dead happy to see that they have put in liners on the edge and stop of the paths for the blind (the red ones with bobbles on top)

Tiriel

Nukem wrote:

Think the red offset is kinda nice.Takes some of the grey away and dead happy to see that they have put in liners on the edge and stop of the paths for the blind (the red ones with bobbles on top)

yeah.. they did do a good enough job for the visually impaired.. they have corrigated strips in too..

Danni

Ok since this topic has gone WAY off topic, i'll just add what i think about Pana like others have.

Its a flamin disgrace! Did any of these designers think about us girls in heels that keep getting stuck in the footpaths?? 2 of my friends have broken their shoes on a night out & it wasn't from falling all over the place drunk. My grandmother (who wears flat shoes) tripped coz of the footpaths. Thankfully, she wasn't hurt. Anyway, my opinion is that they totally messed up the street's pavement. I think they could have done a much better job.
The lights, i though were weird at the start. I thought they looked like they were broken because of the way they hang. I'm getting to like them now though

Fysh

Cork_girl wrote:

ok. here are 2 pics. maybe I' m daft.. but there are 5 different types of stone used throughout the newly developed Patrick St. These vary in shades, some include red tones, etc. yeah, the street paving is continuous in a way.. maybe that is what u mean.. but there are differentiations in colour, texture etc. fair enough if u don't agree.

...

I have no idea whether it was deliberate, but you've totally missed damien.m's point as far as I can work out. Yes, there are several shades of tile on the paving stones used on Patrick Street. We didn't need pictures to prove this. It still looks grey and dead overall in my opinion, particularly with the lack of any sort of greenery to contrast it with. However, you've also missed out everything else that both I and damien.m have said as to why the supposedly "finished" work isn't really satisfactory.

damien

Out of curiosity Cork_girl , are you in any way involved in the City of Culture Project or any of the companies involved in the promotion of the new Patrick Street ?

Who was the survey that you did for ? Or was it just a personal survey ?

Amnesiac_ie

Raskolnikov wrote:

I don't know, I like the revamped Patrick's St. A nice wide open boulevard with adequate lighting and plenty of room to walk around on. The only problem that I have is that they've done feck all to promote cycle lanes in the city.

I remember hearing that Cork had been earmarked as one of 15 cities in Europe that was going to massively promote cycling and develop cycle lanes throughout the city. Whatever happened to that???

simu

I'll ask this again - was it not stated in the original plan that the whole street was to be pedestrianised?

damien

No. But I did hear talk of buses and taxis only.

simu

Apparently not: http://www.corkcorp.ie/projects/patrick_street/patrickst.html

Fysh

simu wrote:

Apparently not: http://www.corkcorp.ie/projects/patrick_street/patrickst.html

going back to complaints about the smoothness of the surface...I think looking at that site answers any questions about the whole damn thing. Looks like the project was handed over to some aspiring artist muppet with views to having his/her name in the history books as the redesigner of our city (which s/he may yet be, but for the wrong reasons). I can't help but feel their intentions were right, but everything else from there on (ie initial ideas, subsequent designs and refinements, understandings of requirements, reviews of area where work is to be carried out) was flawed.

Tiriel

dudara wrote:

I too like the new Patrick Street. It does have flaws, and the state of the street during the construction works was terrible, but it is a vast improvement and is quite attractive overall.

The things I don't like are
1. The paving stones are not filled in correctly. Sometimes when I wear heels, they get caught betweeen the paving stones. This is a problem anywhere in the city where they've laid new stones, it's happened to me in Carey's Lane, Olive Plunkett Street and Pana. I've also seen this ahppen to 60 year old women as well. I'm just waiting for the compo claims to start.
2. The particular shade (shades for Cork Girl ) they've chosen for the street are stained and dirty already. The combinations of gum, fags, spit and puke are already ddoing their damage.
3. The litter boxes leak this horrible brown goo which is contributing to staining the footpaths.

However, I like the overall effect and the broadening of pana. I like the new taxi rank positions, although they should have installed a queueing system as well. I like the new bus shelters, especially the ones near Eason's that incorporate a phone box. I love the lighting. But more greenery is needed to just lighten the whole effect.

Now as to Cork being the City of Culture, I just don't know. So far, I feel that there hasn't been enough promotion. Now that the Gluckman Gallery has opened in UCC, let's see what that can add to the list. Let's just wait and see.

BTW I have to agree with the comment on bicycle lanes, there's a severe lack of them in the city

I have to say I basically agree with Dudara above. The street's development has pro's and con's but overall I like it. I'm not sure what point I'm missing out on.. but sure lemme know!! oh and by the way no I'm not involved with any committee!! All of my research etc. was purely college based..

I'd like to point out that the redevelopment of Pana was a plan long before Cork was even entered in the competition for City of Culture. It is completely separate and does differ a lot from its original plan layout due primarily to lack of funding. The original intention was to redevelop Pana and The Grand Parade. However... the dosh ran out and they couldn't even finish Pana to the standard they had originally hoped for. Basically the traffic lanes were supposed to be paved with granite.. but are now done in tarmac. So when the money ran out.. they decided to postpone Grand Parade and do Oliver Plunkett St. instead as it is a far smaller project. As for rushing it to have it finished in time as mentioned in other posts.. I dunno!! Hope not! :mad:

The Capital of Culture is a positive thing for Cork. If it gets things done around the city.. sure how bad! To be honest I 'd personally hate to be on the Committee that is organising events etc. Imagine how hard it would be to do! Especially with all the criticism!! At least the new Pana can be used for outdoor events etc. whereas before it would have been manky! That's what I think. Fair enough.. people aren't impressed by the new street.. but how can u say it isn't culturally appropriate? what would have been?? I was lucky enough to see the other competition entries for the street and I really am delighted that Beth Gali's entry won!!!