Man U V Arsenal. The Mindgames Begin.

The Muppet

Paul Wilson
Sunday October 17, 2004
The Observer

A week to go, but Sir Alex Ferguson has already started the war of words ahead of this season's battle of Old Trafford. He described Arsenal as 'a mob who got away with murder' in the build-up to next Sunday's game, in which the champions - 3-1 winners against Aston Villa yesterday - will attempt to stretch their unbeaten run to 50 Premiership games.
Perhaps it was crowing from Highbury that goaded the Manchester United manager into revisiting the events of last year, when six players were charged by the Football Association after a goalless draw that was marred by seven yellow cards, one red, for Patrick Vieira, and the sight of Arsenal players, led by Martin Keown, raging against Ruud van Nistelrooy and accusing him of diving.

Wenger has just described United as a fading force in English football and Robert Pires appeared to suggest the fighting spirit engendered among Arsenal players by ganging up on Van Nistelrooy last September acted as a spur for the rest of their season.

'Arsenal got off scot-free really, they got away with murder,' said Ferguson of the FA's decision to ban Lauren for four games, Keown for three, and Vieira and Ray Parlour for one each.

'The disciplinary treatment was ridiculous when you think that Eric Cantona got nine months for attacking a supporter. All right, that was a serious offence and no one would disagree that something had to be done, but United took their own action in suspending him for four months. I don't think Arsenal would suspend one of their own players for four months no matter what he had done.

'The FA said what Eric did set a terrible example to young people. Given that he did it in a night match that wasn't on television, while United v Arsenal kicked off at lunchtime with probably about 10 million kids watching live on TV, I wonder what was really the worst example. What Arsenal players did that day was the worst thing I've seen in this sport. No wonder they were so delighted at the verdicts.

'They conveniently forget things, that mob. They seemed to think Patrick Vieira was badly done-by, yet he's the captain of Arsenal and he's jeopardised his team by trying to kick Ruud van Nistelrooy. OK he missed, but he still tried. There was no criticism of that, even though he was the one sent off.'

With United, who drew 0-0 at Birmingham yesterday, 11 points behind Arsenal, nothing less than victory will do. If Arsenal extend their record-breaking sequence to 50, they will take further confidence for the remainder of the season.

'We've got to win, haven't we?' the manager said. 'But football is a funny game. If you go back to 1997 we were 12 points clear and absolutely fly ing, then we got a couple of injuries and a wobble and it cost us. Who is to say that will not happen to Arsenal? In any case they haven't really played anyone yet who is likely to beat them. They have still got to play Chelsea twice, us twice, Tottenham twice, Newcastle, Liverpool...'

Arsène Wenger, when asked last night if winning at Old Trafford would end United's title challenge - the gap would be 14 points if Arsenal win - said: 'If it was January or February I'd say they can't recover, but they have too good a squad to write them off at the moment no matter what happens on Sunday.'

Wenger was also quizzed on whether he was expecting another volatile game. 'We are always contenders in the fair play league now, so I hope we don't drop those standards,' he said, drily.

'Apart from last year's incident, usually games between Manchester United and Arsenal are very good football games. It's a game the whole of England is waiting for, in fact it's a game the whole world is interested in.'

United supporters can take comfort in the fact that the arrival of Wayne Rooney, Alan Smith and Louis Saha should mean Wenger's players have more than just Van Nistelrooy to worry about this season.

'You could look at the Arsenal game as the start of Rooney's season,' Ferguson suggested, dismissing the notion that the 18-year-old might be in need of a rest.

'He still needs games, because he's missed the pre-season through injury. You normally like to give players six games before the real action starts and by next Sunday he will have played twice for England, twice in the league and twice in the Champions League, so he will be ready just in time for Arsenal.'



Strike One To Fergie

A Dub in Glasgo

Maybe to Fergie but United are no near wrestling control from Arsenal

gandalf

Hehehe sounds more like desparation

Loved Arsene's reply "We are always contenders in the fair play league now, so I hope we don't drop those standards"

Arsenal Win or draw we win, slagging material for years against United Supporters, they have to win

The Muppet

gandalf wrote:

Arsenal Win or draw we win, slagging material for years against United Supporters, they have to win

That just can't happen, Real Life is never that cruel.

gandalf

Hehehe who's feeling the pressure more do you reckon The Muppet

The Muppet

Pressure! Whats That ?

I shall remain quitely confident we can call a halt to the Gunners gallop next Sunday. No motivation needed for this one.

GuanYin

The Muppet wrote:

Pressure! Whats That ?

I shall remain quitely confident we can call a halt to the Gunners gallop next Sunday. No motivation needed for this one.

Judging by the level of Utd's general play this season (and not their results) and comparing it to Arsenals, motivation won't be enough. I can only think that Utd will be more than happy with a draw.

I'd say they'll play it very tight and if they've kept the score down in the second half may try to nick it.

Utd's team are weak in every department compared to their legandary teams of the last decade. They're not only poorer players with less invention, skill and guile but they are also mentally weaker less intelligent players (and bear in mind the "smarter" team had Beckham in the side).

Despite my distaste for the loudmouth lout that is the average Utd supporter, I actually thoroughly enjoyed watching the team play. That declined last season, but this season I can't watch them at all.

I'd say a nil all draw will me a moral victory for the Red Nymphs - they just aren't Devil standard anymore.

jesus_thats_gre

Ferguson is really grasping at straws now.. He knows he has lost it and doesnt know what to do to get it back!!

Big Ears

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Ferguson is really grasping at straws now.. He knows he has lost it and doesnt know what to do to get it back!!

I agree , and if this game is anything like the Shield game (which it probably won't be) Man United are in big trouble of getting hammered .

Ive watched a lot of Arsenal this season , and in most games they seem capable of scoring 8 or 9 , hopefully Wenger feels it time for revenge against that 6-1 defeat all those years ago .

Henry , Reyes , Bergkamp , Ljungberg , Pires against the likes of Ferdinand , Silvestre , Neville(the whinger) , Heinze , O'Shea , Brown , I know who my moneys on .

thejollyrodger

I bet any money Arsenal will win and they will probably play their best football of the season just to rub salt in Man Utd's wounds. Wenger isnt giving anything away to Fergi and I think (and going to bet) that the goal difference will be 3 or 4 to Arsenal..

TwoShedsJackson

Ferguson needs to realise that Wenger isn't Kevin Keegan :rolleyes: These attempts at mind games have moved beyond pathetic and into the realms of desperation now.

cournioni

It worked in the 2002/03 season. Wenger totally lost it near the end of the season.

PHB

I'm sorry but while Arsenal are a fantastic team, they still don't cut it at the higher levels.

When you watch them in the premiership, they tend to not get going until they've scored.
When they score the other team really just give up and Arsenal walk all over them.

If you watch a load of the games of Arsenal this season you see them working hard and getting a 1-0 lead, ocne that happens they score an incredible amount of soft goals that would make a defender cry.

That won't happen againist Utd Chelsea or any of the European teams, and they tend to get stuck in a route one mentality.

The only thing I want in this game is, not a draw.
United lose, ok, ****, but at least it will kick them in the ass.
United win, score, push for the championship.
United draw, gah who the **** cares.

smemon

PHB wrote:

I'm sorry but while Arsenal are a fantastic team, they still don't cut it at the higher levels.

When you watch them in the premiership, they tend to not get going until they've scored.
When they score the other team really just give up and Arsenal walk all over them.

agreed, arsenal create many chances but also give away a whole lot.

i think ive said this before but on a big pitch, unlike highbury, ive noticed arsenal struggle to get their crisp clever passes together. they cant close down people as quick as they would at highbury and therefore get a little anxious.
obviously that doesnt happen every time they play away but any signs of weakness are usually shown away from highbury, continental sides being an example.

perhaps henry, vieira (the french players) are effected by it too with france, not used to playing in a spacey, big environment were when you go behind the pitch can feel pretty huge when compared with the corridor that is highbury were nobody can hide.

GuanYin

PHB wrote:

I'm sorry but while Arsenal are a fantastic team, they still don't cut it at the higher levels.

So we're all agreed, they should have no problem against Utd.

Jivin Turkey

smemon wrote:

i think ive said this before but on a big pitch, unlike highbury, ive noticed arsenal struggle to get their crisp clever passes together. they cant close down people as quick as they would at highbury and therefore get a little anxious.
obviously that doesnt happen every time they play away but any signs of weakness are usually shown away from highbury, continental sides being an example.

I dont know the exact stat for it but didnt Arsenal go unbeaten for ages (the whole season maybe) away from home about 2 or 3 years ago? Couple that with going unbeaten last year and Id say you could count the number of times they have been turned over domestically away from home on one hand in the last 3 years.

Yes, its all down to the highbury pitch.

A Dub in Glasgo

PHB wrote:

I'm sorry but while Arsenal are a fantastic team, they still don't cut it at the higher levels.

.

Agreed, which is why the English Premiership will not produce a CL winner in a while. Arsenal cannot hack it in Europe. Man Utd only done it recently by the skin of their teeth. The EPL is simply not good enough to manage success in Europe at a consistant level.

LegacyUser

this is as easy as pie.

If Utd do not win against Arsenal fairly(meaning no awful decisions that go against them, i mean if they lose fair and square with Arsenal dominating) = Manchester Utd have no chance in hell of getting the league.

If it is a draw = Still not enough.

If they win = They will win the league.

LegacyUser

Sorry me again, just thought about it...can you imagine the abslutely gigantic psychological advantage Utd will have for beating Arsenal and ending their unbeaten run. That in my opinion, if it happens will do some serious damage to Arsenal.

gsand

I dont doubt for a second that man utd can win this game...

Without a doubt they will play better than in most games previous to this one, however the problem they are having at the moment is grinding out the 1-0 wins they used to be so great out and chelsea seem to have acquired a taste for.

They are dropping to many points with wasteful draws. Even if they beat all the so called big sides, its the wins against the lower teams which win you the league.

DEG viper

I can see united winning this game with Van nistleroy gettin the goal and getting his revenge after what happened last year

cournioni

I can see United winning by three goals. I think that once United if they go ahead they will be all over Arsenal and will demolish them. United certainly are not at their best but they have yet to field their strongest 11. I think United will field their strongest team against Arsenal and will win.

But then again, I am a United fan. But I cannot see United losing this one.

impr0v

DEG viper wrote:

I can see united winning this game with Van nistleroy gettin the goal and getting his revenge after what happened last year

He has yet to realise the season had started. Whatever getting married has done to him, it's a bad thing for united.

GuanYin

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I can see United winning by three goals. I think that once United if they go ahead they will be all over Arsenal and will demolish them. United certainly are not at their best but they have yet to field their strongest 11. I think United will field their strongest team against Arsenal and will win.

But then again, I am a United fan. But I cannot see United losing this one.

Its amazing what you see in your sleep

cournioni

haha... Hopefully I'll be seeing it fully awake next Saturday!!

DEG viper

Id say the game will be very fiery and with alot of tough tackles going in from viera and co. as well as some of the united new boys like heinze rooney and smith if he plays

TwoShedsJackson

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I can see United winning by three goals. I think that once United if they go ahead they will be all over Arsenal and will demolish them. United certainly are not at their best but they have yet to field their strongest 11. I think United will field their strongest team against Arsenal and will win.

But then again, I am a United fan. But I cannot see United losing this one.

Mayeb we should start a sweep for you to change your name to Smemon part 2 :rolleyes: There is no way in hell Man United are winning this by three goals.

gandalf

This is the only game against United in recent years I am not nervous about... I fully expect Arsenal to extend their unbeaten run there.

LegacyUser

Jesus christ, i want Utd to crush Arsenal.

cournioni

Thing is gandalf... Even with a weakened team out last season, you still did not manage to beat United. Now that more or less every player is back apart from Solskjaer and Howard, you should fear United. But then again it's all up to you.

We'll see TSJ... We'll see. No one would have said that United would hammer Arsenal 6-1 (was it?) a few seasons back either...

gandalf

Thing is I do not really care the pressure is not on Arsenal

Praetorian

Arsenals run has been nothing short of amazing, although they have avoided defeat a few times with more than just a pinch of luck; all in all fair play to them. However it is getting a little bit boring seeing them win week in week out. It's not good for the premiership having such a dominant team. Back when United were dominating, they still lost 3-4 games in a season.

At this stage I don't care who beats Arsenal, once a premiership team beats them soon.

p.s. I've been a United fan for as long as I can remember, so of course I want them to win.

cournioni

gandalf wrote:

Thing is I do not really care the pressure is not on Arsenal

True.

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

haha... Hopefully I'll be seeing it fully awake next Saturday!!

Isn't the game on Sunday ? .

Oh and as for United winning by 3 goals..................nice joke .

jank

Im kinda nervous about his one, everytime i think arsenal are going to crush them utd allways come up trumps and this is no exception.

The first goal will be crucil i think. If Utd score first then it will put doubts in to aresnal's mind and utd will rasie their game. If arsenal score first then there will be a whole lot more pressure on utd to win and they will be exposed to the quick counter attack of arsenal

Its going to be like the fa cup match last year only the gunners will win this one.


Hopefully vieria will play too.

Jivin Turkey

Wenger and his team know that they cant go unbeaten forever. So even if they lose this game I doubt it will have the crippling moral effect that some people here think it will.

And I cant see United competing with Arsenal in midfield. 3 of the 4 probable starters in the middle (Keane, Giggs, and Scholes) are not performing their best. While as the like of Ljungberg and Pires are on fire. And its not as if Vieira or Fabregas are playing too bad either.

As for United by 3 goals...........

PHB

Even I don't think United will win by three goals, I think if it happens, which it will , it'lll be a one or two nil win.

I don't think Arsenal will score, unless its by a complete magical shot like last year.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

I don't think Arsenal will score, unless its by a complete magical shot like last year.

They have scored on average 3 goals a game. Uniteds defense has been very lacklustre this year. I would be shocked if they didnt score, and I cant believe even the biggest United fans think they will be able to shut them out. Sure even Liverpool managed a goal at Old Trafford!

PHB

Yeah, they do score an average of 3 goals a game in the premiership, how about in Europe?

How many goals on average a game do they score?
Versus a high level defence, which Neville - Rio - Slyvestre - Heinze is, they havn't shown their ability.

Anyway, this will be fun

The Muppet

PORNAPSTER wrote:

haha... Hopefully I'll be seeing it fully awake next Saturday!!

You,ll be daydreaming so as the game is on Sunday,

I hope your prediction is right but I think a draw is tthe most likely outcome. As for fielding our strongest team there is doubts over Keano but that may be just part of the pre match mind games. With a fully fit squad I think our team wil be as below The only change I woulld see is Brown instead of Silvester and Rooney instead of Smith but I believe Smith will start because of his Physical attributes although rooney is no shrinking Violet either.


Carroll

Neville Ferdinand Silvestre Heinze

Ronaldo Keane Scholes Giggs

Ruud Smith

GuanYin

Rooney has suspect tempriment, I wouldn't be surprised to see him sent off, would be an interesting spin on the comments made by Fergie this week

TwoShedsJackson

PHB wrote:

Yeah, they do score an average of 3 goals a game in the premiership, how about in Europe?

How many goals on average a game do they score?
Versus a high level defence, which Neville - Rio - Slyvestre - Heinze is, they havn't shown their ability.

Anyway, this will be fun

How fortunate for Arsenal then that they're playing Manchester United in the Premiership :rolleyes: As for including Sylvestre as part of a 'high level defence' that is just further signs of delusion on your part.

Nine goals in nine Premiership games so far, not exactly a tally to frighten a decent defence, which is what Arsenal also have, not that most of the United drones on here could ever bring themselves to admit that.

dirkey_wynne

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

How fortunate for Arsenal then that they're playing Manchester United in the Premiership :rolleyes: As for including Sylvestre as part of a 'high level defence' that is just further signs of delusion on your part.

Nine goals in nine Premiership games so far, not exactly a tally to frighten a decent defence, which is what Arsenal also have, not that most of the United drones on here could ever bring themselves to admit that.

Ok, you're stating that Arsenal have a good defence? Yet saying Utd don't? The goals conceded column of the league tables at present reads 8 for Arsenal, 7 for Utd. So Arsenal have a worse defence than Utd, and haven't played any of their main rivals yet, whereas Utd have played 2. I don't think Arsenals defense is all that good to be honest. It's not better than Utd's. However their attack is far better - at present. And midfield too. I think it could be a very interesting game. With Rio back and Roy in goal, Utd's defence has shored up quite a lot. Hopefully they can cope with the irresistible force that is Arsenal. Hopefully. And again, hopefully, the goals that we know are present in any side Utd send out on any given day, will show up on the day!

LegacyUser

I know it will be a brilliant game of football. I personally see Arsenal winning it. But hey, we were robots against Sparta Prague tonight so that is why I think so. Then again, this is not a normal match.

Is it just me or do Utd just look ridiculously demotivated?

smemon

TwoShedsJackson wrote:

Nine goals in nine Premiership games so far, not exactly a tally to frighten a decent defence

true but i dont think arsenal will be in for an easy ride with rooney, van nistelrooy, smith and saha all possibly up against them at some stage.

personally, id drop ruud and play saha and smith with rooney given a free role. ruud been poor the last few game including tonight, not pulling his weight. saha when he came on was flying into tackles and sprinting to win loose balls, i dont think ruud thinks his position is in any doubt so dropping him would wake him up a bit.

ronaldo simply must start along with keane. despite rooneys dream debut, this match will make or break him for me. like pornapster i really cant see utd losing this at home. forget utd's performances this season, this game will be different as utd are fired up for it, with revenge, stopping the record and closing the gap in mind.

Jivin Turkey

smemon wrote:

true but i dont think arsenal will be in for an easy ride with rooney, van nistelrooy, smith and saha all possibly up against them at some stage.

Well Birmingham didnt cope too badly. Besides if United go out and play the 4 of them at once, plus possibly Scholes and Ronaldo, I think everyone will agree Arsenal will rip the reamaining troops to bits.

smemon wrote:

despite rooneys dream debut, this match will make or break him for me.

Very valid point. Rooney has had 3 games so far. If he doesnt perform against Arsenal, we can definately write of the remaining 15 years of his career and point him in the direction of the scrap heap. :rolleyes:

smemon

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Very valid point. Rooney has had 3 games so far. If he doesnt perform against Arsenal, we can definately write of the remaining 15 years of his career and point him in the direction of the scrap heap. :rolleyes:

The first time ive heard this game being played DOWN. this is rooney's 1st big test as a utd player and a huge game needed. if he does we'll see if money was well spent.

reyes and ronaldo on the flanks for both will be key, henry and van nistelrooy have both been poor this year, they'll be looking to raise their game. with mike riley in charge ( ) im even more optimistic manu can roll over the 'invincibles'.

Jivin Turkey

smemon wrote:

The first time ive heard this game being played DOWN. this is rooney's 1st big test as a utd player and a huge game needed. if he does we'll see if money was well spent.

Even if he scores a hatrick (or gets sent off), it is far too early in his career to claim it was money well spent (or not).

Henry poor? 8 goals in 9 games? All from open play. Change the record will you?

Mike Riley at old trafford. Definately a plus for United.

cournioni

Lads... You are coming up with all of these statistics, when a game like this doesn't go on statistics or form at all. It's almost like a cup match.

I can honestly see United coming out on top in this one by three goals. I am an extreme optimist, but I hope I'm right just to piss ya all off!

gandalf

Hmmm I really love all this Henry disappointing stuff In the Premiership he is awesome because he has pure quality all around him supplying him and feeding off his passes, can't explain why he hasn't hit the same level in Europe yet and as for France they do not have the same players as Arsenal or the same style.

Rooney is the biggest threat at United at the moment but I still stick by my opinion it was a waste of money when the United really need 2 quality central midfielders urgently. United are like a soft centred sweet at the moment tough Defense, strong attack but a soft gooey centre

PHB

What the **** match were you watching tonight(smemon)

Rooney was ****, Van Nist was excellent.

The only chances united got were either van nist's doing or making.

The chances he made for other people if given to him would have been goals.

Rooney spent the entire game as a spoilt child, taking on shots that he might score one in a hundred times instead of distributing it out to the sides.

Hes good, hopefully he will be great, but at this point both Saha and Smith are better than him, and hopefully it will be a Ruud Saha or Ruud Smith line up.