players on drugs - Wenger

uberwolf

according to Wenger he suspects an awful lot of his imports displayed medical results suggesting drug use for performance enhancing reasons. I'm not surprised by anything but his willingness to discuss it.

teamtalk

BaZmO*

uberwolf wrote:

I'm not surprised by anything but his willingness to[/URL]

Indeed. But he does suggest that the blame could lie at the feet of the clubs involved.

B.

The Muppet

Fair dues to him. What will mr Blatter have to say about it though ?

uberwolf

it's open acknowledgement by a man who knows that players are either being taken advantage of or are actively abusing drugs. There really ought to be a reaction at all levels of the game. It will also be interesting to see if other managers react. Will they see him as "spitting in the soup?" (a cycling phrase to describe whistle blowers who jepordise(sp) the sport by telling the truth). If there's no reaction, I may be tempted to interpret it as a quiet acceptance by men who have things to lose themselves.

mayordenis

any ideas of who he is talking about?? the likes of fabregas maybe.

uberwolf

thought occured, it would have to be players who have since left - because they'd hardly appreciate it if they were still there. So if you wanted to speculate, think of players who he imported, didn't perform and have since left.

leeroybrown

It's not entirely surprising.

I'm sure a lot of people have read about the Itallian court cases where it came out that major players at big clubs were unknowingly being given drugs such as anti-depressants under the guise of vitamins.

I'm not saying that players will be blameless in this but my view of doping in soccer is that there are minimal gains (some strength and a slight increase in speed) to be made.

beer enigma

uberwolf wrote:

thought occured, it would have to be players who have since left - because they'd hardly appreciate it if they were still there. So if you wanted to speculate, think of players who he imported, didn't perform and have since left.

Not necessarily, Wenger seems to be implying that the players may not have known

Wenger went on to say that he suspects some clubs of doping their players without their knowledge.

"Drugs are a problem in all high-level sports. I wouldn't say they were a big problem in football, but I wouldn't say that it does not exist.

"There are clubs who dope their players without the players knowing.

"The club might say that they were being injected with vitamins and the player would not necessarily know that it was something different."

As leeroybrown mentions....the Italian court case is testament to that

uberwolf

regardless of whether they knew or not they'd still be done in court. Whats more because the numbers are so small within the club, there'd be few enough that would fit the bill. Their manager has just said that one of them (at least) was on drugs and cast doubts about there past performances. I'm merely speculating that they have since left the club because the reason for there purchase (i.e past performance) was drug induced and not natural talent.

Overmars speculated a number of years ago about how defenders seemed harder to outpace - this in the years before injury slowed him

beer enigma

Point taken.....sadly, I guess you could look at quite a few players in reality who haven't lived up to their pre-signing abilities.

Hey Uberwolf...where's that nice little dancing fella gone from your sig ?? - used to cheer me up no end watching him

The Muppet

Surely Wenger can not say such things without the FA investigating his claims. Dont forget when Rio Ferdinand was banned we were all told that a line had been drawn in the sand and from there on in Drug offences were going to be punished severly. If the FA are true to their word Arsenal will have to release these Test Results and the players involved must be banned for at least 8 Months.

I am very doubtful that this will happen which leads to the question are Arsenal getting preferential treatment from the FA again?

uberwolf

I believe the FA is to begin EPO testing, only 6 years after it became very public knowledge that professional athletes were abusing it. Other sporting bodies have reacted with incredulity that they weren't testing already. The FA have a dangerously lax attitude IMO

daveirl

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The Muppet

daveirl wrote:

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I though a test had been developed to detect EPO ?

I was not aware of those full circumstances until now so I accept your point but there was no proof of drug abuse in the Ferdinand case either but that didn't stop the FA from issuing an 8 month ban.

I appreciate the cirumstances were different and that Rio was at fault for missing the test but the FA at the time said they were instigating a Zero Tolerance policy to stamp drugs out of the sport. Here we have one of the top managers holding his hands up and admitting that some of his players blood tests indicate that they have taken performance enhancing drugs.

I commend him for that but in the interst of balance and fairness that confession has to be followed up and investigated and the relevent punishments given if the allegations are substantiated.

uberwolf

A ban can be administered if a player fails to produce a sample or if his A and B samples show positive for a banned substance. The only other option, afaik, is a sporting corruption charge which Italy, Spain and France have introduced in recent years. This would result in the clubs being charged on the basis if deliberate manipulation of sporting results using unsporting methods. Britain neither has that law nor could the players be charged because they were ignorant to the fact.

Cascarino admitted he'd been doped whist in France did he not?

The Muppet

After a quick Google I can confirm that there is a blood test for EPO so are these samples going to be tested or does the FA's Zero Tolerance stretch that far ?

I am no scientist so there may be a technical reason as to why tests can not be done but there should at the very least be an investigation of these claims and the findings made public.

uberwolf

I can't imagine there is any reason Arsenal would have stored the samples. Also any ban could very easily contested because drug enforcement 'vampires', as they're known, weren't present and didn't conduct the test.

daveirl

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uberwolf

they re subject to blodtests, but what they are actually tested for seems to have been remiss. A test for EPO has been knocking around since the sydney olympics.

Big Ears

Players can't be suspended for being doped without knowing can they ?
Because unless they can I think the Muppets comments are.................kind of stupid really(I don't mean to cause offence) .

'are Arsenal getting preferential treatment from the FA again?'

I would say the answer is no , but when did they get it before ? .

The Muppet

Big Ears wrote:

Players can't be suspended for being doped without knowing can they ?
Because unless they can I think the Muppets comments are.................kind of stupid really(I don't mean to cause offence) .

'are Arsenal getting preferential treatment from the FA again?'

I would say the answer is no , but when did they get it before ? .

No Offence taken but by your logic any player failing a drugs test can claim they took it unknowingly and escape punishment. HMM does that not sound kind of really stupid to you?

I wonder did Waterford Crystal knowingly take the banned substance ?

uberwolf

The Muppet wrote:

I wonder did Waterford Crystal knowingly take the banned substance ?

LOL, no ignorance isn't a defence.

Dustaz

uberwolf wrote:

they re subject to blodtests, but what they are actually tested for seems to have been remiss. A test for EPO has been knocking around since the sydney olympics.

Thats the nub of the whole story.

The FA have ALWAYS been horribly derelict in their dope testing remit. There are shining examples of players who have abused all sorts of substances and have never been caught simply because the FA's procedures are horribly outdated. Japp Staam, Paul Merson, Ian Wright, Lee Sharpe, Robbie Fowler have all been 'in drug trouble' and have never been nailed down by the FA.

If what wenger said spurs the fa into action then mores the better. They SHOULD have been spurred by the merson and staam cases but cleary opted for the status quo.

Big Ears

The Muppet wrote:

No Offence taken but by your logic any player failing a drugs test can claim they took it unknowingly and escape punishment. HMM does that not sound kind of really stupid to you?

Im just saying Wenger beleives that it was the clubs , who could be responsible for the abnormally high red blood-cell count , without the players knowing .

If the players can prove that the club did this without the club telling them , then why should they be punished ? .

Its one thing claiming something its another proving , remember claims of 'I was moving house' and ' I had my phone off ' , didn't help a certain someone did they ?

The Muppet

Just to spell it out for you as you appear to be completely missing the point.

The offence is having the substance in your system . How it gets there is irrelevant.

Big Ears

The Muppet wrote:

Just to spell it out for you as you appear to be completely missing the point.

The offence is having the substance in your system . How it gets there is irrelevant.

Have athlethe's not got off drug charges before , because their coaches doped them , without them knowing ? .

I presumed it was the same it soccer , but I must be wrong .
Now all I have to do is get Patrick Viera to eat poppey seeds(a muffin , will be the weopon of choice) before a drugs test , and he will be out of the next game against Ireland aswell :rolleyes: .

The Muppet

Big Ears wrote:

.
Now all I have to do is get Patrick Viera to eat poppey seeds(a muffin , will be the weopon of choice) before a drugs test , and he will be out of the next game against Ireland aswell :rolleyes: .

Good Idea.Try and teach Pires how to stay on his feet while your at it.

Big Ears

The Muppet wrote:

Try and teach Pires how to stay on his feet while your at it.

Are there any classes that teach baby's how to walk ? , I could book him in to one of them .

Guy:Incognito

i think the main drugs in football are more the recreational type than the performance enhancing type and tbh while i dont condone drug taking i wouldnt consider a player having traces of recreational drugs in their systems a major issue because at the end of the day they will only hinder the player and that will be his problem.

uberwolf

Stekelly wrote:

i think the main drugs in football are more the recreational type than the performance enhancing type and tbh while i dont condone drug taking i wouldnt consider a player having traces of recreational drugs in their systems a major issue because at the end of the day they will only hinder the player and that will be his problem.

that is pure speculation. Soccer is the sport with the biggest money behind it. All things being even it would have the biggest problem due to having the greatest incentive.

Boro

The mirror on saturday had an article on this - right in the middle was a blacked out picture of a head (supposedly one of the biggest names in football) who plays for Arsenal, and apparently is tested very often by the FA who are trying to catch him out. Now to me and the lads, it looked like Viera's head.

When thinking of arsenal players, and which ones may have taken performance enhancing substances, Viera isnt really one that would immediately spring to mind. However he did come pretty much from nowhere to become a superstar and relations with him and arsenal have seemed to be strained lately.

Pure speculation of course but gave us something to talk about while we were watching that god awful game between N.I. and Azerjyban. Although i also heard that while very high levels of Red Blood Cells can possibly indicate EPO, it can also be the result of just being extremely fit.

uberwolf

Boro wrote:

Although i also heard that while very high levels of Red Blood Cells can possibly indicate EPO, it can also be the result of just being extremely fit.

In very rare cases maybe. This is so unlikely that cycling governing body were happy enough to ban automatically anyone who went over a threshold of 50% haemocrat. Wengers comments would have this threshold in mind. That is to say that if these soccer players had those haemocrat levels in any other sport they would receive an automatic 2 year ban, subject to proving they were gentically disposed to that haemocrat level which would leave them off. This isn't the case as the Arsenal players in question would still have those levels and be under no suspicion from Wenger.