Anyone see RTÉ 9pm news tonight...

Wertz

More specifically the gun-camera footage from an air raid on a Baghdad suburb?
I know this isn't technically the correct form, move it if you must...

Anyway, the newsreader said to beware of disturbing images: we hear that so much on the news and probably pay it little heed these days. I kind of wish I had in a way...

The footage begins on an infrared gun-camera feed from an Airforce F-14 Tomcat taken back in April this year, released by God-knows-who but substantiated by the Pentagon as being genuine when they were asked to verify it's authenticity.

Basically it showed footage of a bombing run on a Bagdhad suburb, accompanied by radio comms from the pilot. The guy spots a group of people (taken to be civilians and very apparently so), asks on his comms if he should engage, gets the go ahead from his flight commander and launches a guided bomb...

The usual digital IR b&w images didn't do it justice, but suffice to say that you see about 30-35 black figures running from something and then a direct hit, mid-group, creating an explosion that engulfs every single one, and would probably have taken out twice the area the group took up.
The pilot gets back on comms and exclaims "Whoa, dude..." : not in a surprised way, moreso in a celebratory (?) way. The whole incident from first contact with the group, till orders were asked for/received, till bomb was launched took maybe 40 seconds.

Now I've googled the keywords looking for the video on AP or someplace but nothing yet. Our national broadcaster is pretty good at what it does, and maybe the video clip simply isn't online yet.
Fortunately I didn't see the Nick Berg tape or similar executions, but that little vid clip tonight disturbed me like a lot of other things simply don't do these days. The pilot's warcry (for that's all I can think of it as) just topped it for me. Stuff like this is propaganda heaven for muslim fundamentalists and governmental powers alike (but that's for another topic/forum)
In the wake of Abu ghraib and Rumsfeld's "misunderstood" :rolleyes: comments today, this is dynamite, and I really didn't mean that pun...

Maybe this is old and RTÉ only got hold of it someplace today, but I can find no mention of it anyplace else...
Frightening.

ro_chez

Ah, thats pretty old man, I seen it a good few months ago, think it was ogrish not too sure tho!!

Trust RTE to be showing news thats over half a year old :rolleyes:

sceptre

http://globalresearch.ca/images/Massacre%20of%20Civilians.wmv

Don't ignore the warning about the content mentioned by Wertz.

Doper Than U

Sweet Jesus

Wertz

Like I say, even they said it was from April, although I'm pretty confused as to why they decided to show it tonight, and they came across with the attitude that it was hot off the wire or something.

Maybe there was some doubt as to it's authenticity at an earlier stage? Anyways, like I said the Pentagon has said it's not a mock-up.

Seriously, when Iraqis or any other muslims see this on Al jazeera or wherever, how can they be expected to feel for the plight of kidnapped westerners? In fact why the hell wouldn't images like that turn you into a damn kidnapper, or worse...?

On a related note, did anyone catch John Simpson's Panorama about the friendly fire incident in which he and his team cheated death? Who the hell do the US military let into their planes? And can I have some of whatever it is they're snorting?

dangerman

Channel 4 said the pentagon confirmed that it was an F-16 doing close-combat support in Fallujah in April.

From channel 4:

Overnight, Channel 4 News received the following e-mail:

"This video is indeed gun film footage from a US Air Force F-16 fighter. The mission was not "recent", it was in April 2004. This was a close air support mission, flown by an F-16 Fighting Falcon in the Fallujah vicinity, and under the control of a Joint Terminal Attack Controller serving with ground forces in the area. The JTAC designated the target and confirmed the hit."

The confirmed hit happens incredibly quickly, just 32 seconds from the pilot telling ground control he's seen the crowd to the deaths of thirty or so people.

The video grpahcially illustrates US rules of engagement in practice. Unlike British troops, if the Americans percieve anybody or anything to be a threat it is attacked, particualrly in Fallujah, particularly in April.

link: http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/10/week_2/05_iraq.html

Pataman

Its no wonder every extremist wants to kill Americans with that sort of propaganda. They really make it easy. And the amazing thing is they release this. Why? Do they want to show off their technology? Do they not think we wont notice the "targets" are more than likely civilians fleeing?

ro_chez

Wertz wrote:

Seriously, when Iraqis or any other muslims see this on Al jazeera or wherever, how can they be expected to feel for the plight of kidnapped westerners? In fact why the hell wouldn't images like that turn you into a damn kidnapper, or worse...?

Well you dont think people go around decapitating people or blowing themselves up for no reason. The difference between us and them is that their media don't sugarcoat the truth when it comes to reporting the atrocities that are inflicted in these countries daily, whether it be in Iraq, Palistine or elsewere and the only way to get their plight exposed to the rest of the world is to resort to these types of actions.

Wertz

ro_chez wrote:

Well you dont think people go around decapitating people or blowing themselves up for no reason. The difference between us and them is that their media don't sugarcoat the truth when it comes to reporting the atrocities that are inflicted in these countries daily, whether it be in Iraq, Palistine or elsewere and the only way to get their plight exposed to the rest of the world is to resort to these types of actions.

You're preaching to the choir, but keep up the good work.

Also I love the fact that when I went hunting on a few US news-sites for anyhting remotely resembling this story earlier, and all I got back was zip.

BTW I don't think the US released that tape to Ch4 news: looks more like someone with a guilty conscience/whistleblower, no...?

Flukey

At least RTE shows this kind of thing. If you were in America they'd be showing you pictures of the soldiers giving sweets to kids and some conflict footage, but nothing like that. As has been said, that is why we have terrorism. It doesn't justify it, but it does cause it. There were no car-bombs and the like before the invasion. Saddam is gone, which is a good thing, but that could have been done without an invasion and so avoided all the problems it has caused The troops are liberating the Iraq people alright, liberating them of their mortal existence that is. This is a thread for the politics forum.

Wertz

Yeah, it's one for the Politics forum now: just thought it was current, but the issues it raises after the fact are all politics/Iraq.

BloodBath

I have 2 more videos similar to the one above, both from afghanastan.

One is from an ac-130 gunship. Basically a huge plane with 3 cannons and 2 miniguns poking out of it that flys over an area blowing the **** out of anything that moves on the ground.

They were hunting down what looked like civilians fleeing from a mosque and other nearby buildings. The guy kept asking for clearance to blow away the mosque but doesn't get permission. They must have killed at least 10 people that were just trying to flee and then they took out the mosque.

It seems this is a regular occurance with american missions. They deserve everything they get tbh.(Americans btw)


BloodBath

Superman

Well its war and these things happen, now don't get me wrong i think it is horendous and wars in general are a waste of everything, regardless of how people try to justify things.

I have al-jazeera and basically all the arab channels in my house and the footage on them is far far more disturbing, especially the stuff that comes out of palestine. They always get alot more home footage.

If you watch it for a while you can really see why people want to crash planes into stuff, they knew all about terror before planes started crashing.

But i guess what goes around comes aroung and i'm sur the man upstairs will sort out america in the long run.

aphex™

What pisses me off is that by showing this, RTE will most likely end up being mentioned on one of those stupid McCathhite websites that lists Ireland as being "anti-american" again.

Those Republicans are utter evil, (just watched Outfoxed). I wish the Libraterians (3rd party in the US??) would just say to their supporters "lads, we're voting for the Democrats this year". It's a matter if world importance that they win.

(I'm presuming Kerry would be more like Clinton than Bush and not start wars for no reason)

pork99

Do they not think we wont notice the "targets" are more than likely civilians fleeing?

How do you know who they are? How do you know it's not a band of armed militants? I watched that video - to be fair you cannot see clearly from that video who the target is.

They were hunting down what looked like civilians fleeing from a mosque and other nearby buildings.

I've seen that video. Again it's "what looks like civilians" - in other words "I want to believe the Americans massacre civilians so that's what I will see". How can you tell?

The Americans in both Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting an enemy which is mostly indistiguishable from the civilian population. They don't wear any uniforms and merge into the population.

It's a war - the objective isn't to die for your country - it's to make the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country.

Pataman

pork99 wrote:

How do you know who they are? How do you know it's not a band of armed militants? I watched that video - to be fair you cannot see clearly from that video who the target is.



I've seen that video. Again it's "what looks like civilians" - in other words "I want to believe the Americans massacre civilians so that's what I will see". How can you tell?

The Americans in both Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting an enemy which is mostly indistiguishable from the civilian population. They don't wear any uniforms and merge into the population.

It's a war - the objective isn't to die for your country - it's to make the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country.

Guilty until proven innocent... The guy in the plane has a responsibility to make sure they are hostile. It is a big responsibility, having a gun/plane/ship doesnt give you the right to fire indiscriminately. It may be a "war" but not to everyone.

pork99

Pataman wrote:

Guilty until proven innocent... The guy in the plane has a responsibility to make sure they are hostile. It is a big responsibility, having a gun/plane/ship doesnt give you the right to fire indiscriminately. It may be a "war" but not to everyone.

The pilot is given his target by forward observers on the ground. It's actually their responsibility. The pilot cannot stop at 3,000 feet altitude maybe going at 700 mph and get out and check for himself.

Pataman

I know the pilot cant stop and get out, but buck stops with the guy with his finger on the trigger. I dont think it would be accepted to completely pass blame onto the ground observer. if you listen to the audio feed the reply is instant from the other party, it may be a guy on the ground, it may not. Where there is doubt err on the side of caution. The evidence from the hospitals that day was a lot of civilians killed.

Hagar

It's so very wrong.
I'm glad I'm not an American.
I would be ashamed if anyone did this in my name.

Flukey

They have a lovely euphemisim for these civilian casualties: Collateral Damage.

If Osama Bin Laden had rung George Bush on the afternoon of the September 11th attacks and said "Hi George, we meant to get the towers and the Pentagon, but the rest was collateral damage," would George have said "Don't worry about it Osama, these things happen," and would the American people have said the same?