I'm a Novice and I'm Pissed Off

JuliusFranco

Well I'm not getting pissed off exactly, more confused and I just don't know what to do with myself..

I'm relatively new at this. Maybe you've all had this feeling...

A few lads in our gaff and I only really started playing poker since April/May, thanks mainly to Late Night poker on Discovery H&L. We play a couple of nights a week for a fiver each freezout with between 3 and 6 players. It's gotten to the stage now where we kinda know how everyone plays and we've all agreed that we're not gonna learn much more about poker just playing amoungst ourselves.

So a month or two ago I decided to go to pokerroom.com and see what the outside world was like! After briefly flirting with boring play-money limit games I took the leap and started playing the 0.25/0.50 real - money NLH cash games and I more or less held my own if not making a couple of quid.

I then heard about the Merrion and the free entry games on Monday and I thought, ok, this is the next step, so I went along there 2 weeks ago and again last Monday.

Overall, it's great (even if my hands shake like a leaf if I'm throwing in chips or if I'm dealing...I hate dealing! - though I'll get used to it I'm sure). It's just completely different to how I expected it.

I dunno what i expected actually, At first every time i was in the SB or BB or anywhere in an early position with QQ or JJ I felt like I felt like i had put my head through a iron railing and couldn't get my head out. AKs my arse - cos someone on the button will always see your (substantial) raise with 62, then see your all in raise after the flop of 34A with of 3 outs (pot odds smot odds), and of course a big fat friggin 5 plops out on the river (after a K on the turn to add insult to injury!)

Maybe I'm just a bit peeved cos nearly every time I went all in with a reasonable pair,(be 2/1 fav) i'd hit trips on the turn but lose to a flush on the river. (I know it's a free roll/cheap fun game and it is..but...well ya know...)

Maybe, i do adopt the following strategy:
First hand of the night, don't look at my cards and raise all in (actually, now that i think about it, my not? it seemed to work for an American dude)
An A is good, in any position, with any kicker-raise all in
In fact, f**k it, any two cards can win - raise all in
What ever the re-buys cost, stick it on red on the roulette table, so you break even - repeat if necessary...repeat if necessary
Sell naked pictures of your girl friend while she's asleep to supplement income, those re-buys add up ya know!

Maybe, I just played a bit too tight and I have to..well...loosen up a bit and enjoy the ride!

Maybe I should limp in now and then, even if my K8s won't like a raise, it mightn't happen.

Maybe, i should pay more attention to what people are doing.

Maybe, i should bluff now and then (though i can't imagine that ever happening..lord no...)

And then there's that maths theorem that says that the more you perform a certain experiment the more likely the results will follow what the odds dictate (central limit theorem or something) Good luck doesn't last for ever, but neither does bad luck!

God, I love poker!

DapperGent

The freerolls don't really correspond to proper poker.

It's mostly a crapshoot. You'll have to play in a bit bigger money tournament to get a proper game unfortunately

pokertroll

Hi Julius I can really symphathise with the problems that you are encountering. You will find this happens a lot in the lower entry games where rebuys are cheap.
Generally there is a larger element of gambler/poor players in these games who do not really understand what a good starting hand is.

I'm talking about the ace rag, any picture card, any 2 suited cards type of player - the type of player that never considers what the pther player might have. Luck is a big factor in their game and I have often seen such crap players make final tables and win tournaments with this play. There are a LOT of these players in this city. They generally stick to the freeroll/20 in events and can really ruin your night.

You therefore have to play a very tight/aggressive game against these guys.
Better to see a flop with JJ/QQ from early position if you think your all-in will be called. you need to be able to get away cheap from such hands.

The only way to avoid such players is to stick to Freezout type tourneys. Generally such players will not be as lucky in these tourneys as they cannot rebuy. 100 in might be out of your league but you will find the Suited Aces 50 in freezout on Monday has a high standard of play and is relatively good value.

Hectorjelly

Where as once you get to play the 100Euro Freeze outs, players will raise utg with K10s, call a reraise for half of their stack, and then call an all in with a flush draw. Or call a slightly overbet pot bet on the flop with an inside straight draw, on a paired board!!!!

No matter what limit you play you will encounter terrible play, in general as you go up in stakes the standard will rise accordingly, I wouldnt pay too much heed to what goes on in the freerolls; a lot of the players will be playing for the frist time & have litererally no idea what is going on.

amp

Jesus, this place has more angst in it than PI at the moment. God I love poker.

pokertroll

I agree Hector, you do get it at every level.

Controversially, I don't mind the raise with K10S UTG occasionally because against good players from that position it is representing something bigger.

As you would know, you can raise with anything but can't exactly call with anything. The key is knowing when to get away from it if you only partially hit the flop.

The main distinction that I see between a good player and a bad player is that a good player can throw away a hand if he thinks that another player has a better hand, a bad player won't as he is not thinking of the other players hand,overvalues his own hand or does not understand pot odds. How often have you heard
'sure they were suited' as a reason for making a horrendous call with A5s?

Hectorjelly

pokertroll wrote:

Controversially, I don't mind the raise with K10S UTG occasionally because against good players from that position it is representing something bigger.

Your dead right, utg is a good spot to represent a big hand. Also, if you do this and show the table your cards you can then feel free to raise utg with the more usual holdings of AA or KK. However, if your doing this I would much rather have a hand like 22 or 78s, as you are very unlikely to be called by a hand that dominates you on the flop.

Its funny you should say that, as the hand in question I had AK in mp and did think about folding, which is very rare for me to a single raise. He had about 12k and made it 2k to go utg. I thought for a while and considered folding, after all; nobody is going to be raising with AQ here are they! But I had a good look at him and he looked like he had no idea what he was doing (funnily enough he didnt), so I made it 6k.

DeVore

The main distinction that I see between a good player and a bad player is that a good player can throw away a hand if he thinks that another player has a better hand, a bad player won't as he is not thinking of the other players hand,overvalues his own hand or does not understand pot odds. How often have you heard
'sure they were suited' as a reason for making a horrendous call with A5s?

Bingo.

I've seen some appaling calls just because their hand was high up the poker ladder despite the board being pair, flushing straighting etc etc.
"I know you probably have a house but like, I've a K high flush, I had to call" etc etc

DeV.

JuliusFranco

you are all absolutly right

i kinda read my original message there and i think i sounded a bit like a crybaby. I'm certainly not at the 100 buy in level and i dunno about the 50 buy in either
I did really enjoy playing the free roll games these past couple of weeks, I've learnt a little and i have to remind myself that i went out at the freezout stage cos i played bad not because i was unlucky. The first night i went out cos i raised all in for 3100 UTG with AQs and this was like with the blinds still at 100/200! I was called with an AK (and an old lady went all with 53 who incidenly won that main pot with trips! but she was BB, short stacked and a bit, well, nutty). I thought about that quite a bit since and I reckon I should have probably folded or maybe raised (no point calling) say 6 or 800. Mr AK might have reraised (he was 2 to my left which is kinda early position too) and I probably would have put him on a big hand and correctly folded (or probably call cos I was stupid to begin with and .. well.. rushes of blood to the head can be seducing!) What do should I have done?

The next night i was just anted away and made my last stand with..actually i can't remeber..T2s or something fantastic, which brings me to another question, at what stage should you think about making your last stand? When you have say 10 times the BB, 5 times?

Iago

JuliusFranco wrote:

you are all absolutly right

The first night i went out cos i raised all in for 3100 UTG with AQs and this was like with the blinds still at 100/200! I was called with an AK (and an old lady went all with 53 who incidenly won that main pot with trips! but she was BB, short stacked and a bit, well, nutty). I thought about that quite a bit since and I reckon I should have probably folded or maybe raised (no point calling) say 6 or 800. Mr AK might have reraised (he was 2 to my left which is kinda early position too) and I probably would have put him on a big hand and correctly folded (or probably call cos I was stupid to begin with and .. well.. rushes of blood to the head can be seducing!) What do should I have done?

AQs is a raising hand not a calling hand, by all means raise if you feel that you're going to take the blinds or will be ahead preflop but all-in is a mistake after all preflop it's only the 15th best possible hand. In a 9 seated table it's likely that someone else has a pair or even AK. Raise to 2-3 times the blind or slowplay it and throw it away if you don't hit. Imho

The next night i was just anted away and made my last stand with..actually i can't remeber..T2s or something fantastic, which brings me to another question, at what stage should you think about making your last stand? When you have say 10 times the BB, 5 times?

Every hand can be your last stand, it depends on your position. If you have just paid the blinds then remember you could have up to 5 hands before you are forced to play so wait for cards. Of course this depends on the number of people on the table, the action before you go all-in and your position..

and yes DeV et al, it is me and the real Iago hasn't been abducted by aliens

Hectorjelly

JuliusFranco wrote:

AQsutg.....<snip>What do should I have done?

The next night i was just anted away and made my last stand with..actually i can't remeber..T2s or something fantastic, which brings me to another question, at what stage should you think about making your last stand? When you have say 10 times the BB, 5 times?

AQ is known as a trouble hand, too good to throw away, too weak to raise utg with. Most people overvalue it, I think you should only really raise with it in Mid or Late position, and if you are playing with big blinds, or against poor opponents. If the blinds are low then I wouldnt bother raising against good opponents with AQ, as you are unlikely to be called by the hands that you want to be called with KQ, JQ, AJ etc, etc. Against bad players you will, so fire ahead !

As for being shortstacked, well at around 12 BBs I have two options, all in or fold and in most tournaments Im going all in virtually every playable hand. The tighter your opponents the better this strategy. Note that not everyone plays this way! Counterintuitvely once you get down to less than 6Bbs you need to tighten up; as you are much more likely to get called.

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

and yes DeV et al, it is me and the real Iago hasn't been abducted by aliens

So your super secret master strategy was to play tight? How long did it take them to work that out?

Iago

Hectorjelly wrote:

So your super secret master strategy was to play tight? How long did it take them to work that out?

Not quite although it is an element of it, and it's not super secret, just a flaw in my game that I recognized and fixed.

It wasn't my loose play that was costing me as much as another area that I was lacking in, to be honest I'm still not playing as well as I should be or need to, but I've definitely seen an improvement in my ROI recently..

Edmundo

I don't feel so bad now for throwing away AQ on Wednesday in the SnG when DeVore was all in for 5-700 after being raised by a guy for 1k I think.... Of course a Q comes on the river and I'm kicking myself for folding.....

pokertroll

Hectorjelly wrote:

As for being shortstacked, well at around 12 BBs I have two options, all in or fold and in most tournaments Im going all in virtually every playable hand. The tighter your opponents the better this strategy.

Thats the strategy alright - 10-12BB should be enough to get a good player off a hand. Or so I thought........

I have been knocked out of 2 freezout tournaments this week(Merrion 110 and Fitz 270) with exactly this strategy. The problem I think is that I'm giving some players too much respect (Norman and Viv, not to mention any names)

Last night in the Fitz I was on the button,down to 3600, after the break. Blinds were 200-400. Norman was small blind with 3300 and Derry(big guy) was on the big blind with 6K. Everyone passed to me and I found a pair of 3s. I figured I was in the perfect stealing position as Norman had less chips than me and could only call with a pair or a big ace and Derry would have to have something big to call also. I needed chips and would be happy with the blinds of 600.

So I went all-in and Norman called all-in with KQ. What kind of call is that?
What does he think I have? A small pair? If so its a 50:50 shot at best. Does he think I have less than KQ? Any ace is ahead of KQ! Anyway, he flopped a Q and I was down to 300 - no way back from that.

Don't get me wrong here, I understand the call if he had a lot more chips than me as he has 2 overcards but I don't think it is the type of hand to call all-in with.

careca

I've seen Norman do that a lot Mark. He doens't mind taking a gamble in order to try and double up. Hes probably hoping for 2 live cards just. And yet I've seen him go ballistic at people who do the same. I guarantee you if he had 10/12K he wouldn't have called even if he had a chance to knock you out.

pokertroll

careca wrote:

I've seen Norman do that a lot Mark. He doens't mind taking a gamble in order to try and double up. Hes probably hoping for 2 live cards just. And yet I've seen him go ballistic at people who do the same. I guarantee you if he had 10/12K he wouldn't have called even if he had a chance to knock you out.

He is a hypocrite alright. A couple of hands earlier, one of his mates came over, grumbling about how unlucky he was when his all-in with QQ was called by AK and Norman was saying how bad a call it was. He isn't the most stable of players and I would say that luck/gamble is a big factor of his game.

dropsy

Mark,

Maybe there's another way to look at that hand with Norman last night - he's got a reasonable hand in the BB...one he'd certainly like to see a flop with on the cheap. So then he see's the button raise all in for more or less his stack. If I'm in SB I'm thinking that if you had AA or KK you might put in a small raise in order to get a caller as with your stack size and a hand like that you don't really want to win just the blinds - you'd rather double through. So if I assume you don't have AA or KK, then I put you on a small/mid pair or Ax.

So if I'm prepared to take the chance that I hit one of my two cards then the only thing I'm afraid of is you hit your A or you hit your set if you have a pair - 3 and 2 outs. The last possibility is that your are on a total bluff in which case I might already be ahead.

So, if I make a decision that I'm prepared to risk my stack in order to hit one of my cards (any idea what the odds on making a pair when all in with unpaired hand are - circa 50/50 i would have thought?), then it might not have been such a crazy call after all. Not saying this is what I would do - with a full round to come before I have to post a blind, I would probably have waited (but then you know that already )

Hectorjelly

dropsy wrote:

Mark,

Maybe there's another way to look at that hand with Norman last night - he's got a reasonable hand in the BB...one he'd certainly like to see a flop with on the cheap. So then he see's the button raise all in for more or less his stack. If I'm in SB I'm thinking that if you had AA or KK you might put in a small raise in order to get a caller as with your stack size and a hand like that you don't really want to win just the blinds - you'd rather double through. So if I assume you don't have AA or KK, then I put you on a small/mid pair or Ax.

So if I'm prepared to take the chance that I hit one of my two cards then the only thing I'm afraid of is you hit your A or you hit your set if you have a pair - 3 and 2 outs. The last possibility is that your are on a total bluff in which case I might already be ahead.

So, if I make a decision that I'm prepared to risk my stack in order to hit one of my cards (any idea what the odds on making a pair when all in with unpaired hand are - circa 50/50 i would have thought?), then it might not have been such a crazy call after all. Not saying this is what I would do - with a full round to come before I have to post a blind, I would probably have waited (but then you know that already )

KQ vs 33 47.0%

KQ vs AK 24.5%

KQ vs A5o 42.0%


If norman puts him on a pp, he's behind (allthough its marginal). If norman puts him on a premium broadway cards (AQ,AK) hes miles behind. If norman puts him on a lone ace, hes a little behind. See a trend here? Calling all ins with KQ except in exceptional situations is the sign of a poor player.
Even if PT is bluffing he only has around a 60% chance against a random hand.

dropsy

I would agree in most circumstances Hector - I was making that point that as a short stack who really needs to double through that this might have been one of those circumstances where the risk of a call could be worth the reward if you hit. I did say in my post that you would have to assume that you hit one of your cards in order to make the call, but if you do, the odds you posted change dramatically. Also, the position of the raise and the nature of it (all in) gives a higher probability of a weak hand IMO.

In a tournament situation where your objective is to win or place highly (as opposed to limping into the money) I still think a call here is something to consider - as i said above, I don't think I would have done it but it's not as unmerited at it appears at first glance.

sirchancealot

You are not playing tight it sounds like you are week tight,poker is a game of experience and that will come the more you play.Be more observant at the table and when you have AA dont start seeing monsters under the bed,stick in a good raise or re raise to get it heads up and then fire both barrels unless the flop is a nightmare flop ie:KK blank etc...finally read some books or borrow one at the fitz cash desk,if they still lend em.Good luck.

Marq

I too was somewhat baffled by Norman's call with KQ last night to put Mark out. But having seen a lot of Norman's play recently, when I thought about it, it wasn't so surprising. Norman was down to 3300, which to be honest was going nowhere and he knew it. With the blinds starting to hurt and big stacks forming around the tournament, I think Norman decided that now was the time to take a gamble, knowing that if he won, he'd be able to gain lots more chips quicker with a bigger stack, and if he lost, he was out of the tournament. He put Mark on a small pocket pair (his read on you seems to be quite good, I remember him calling with bottom pair against you in the fifty game once when you moved all-in on a busted draw when there were straight and flush draws on the table), and knew that he was just worse than even money to win the hand. when the table broke 20 minutes later, Norman had over 13k in chips, and was well set going towards the higher blind levels. That one hand allowed him to start bullying and taking pots without showing down, which is exactly what he wanted.

What I like about Norman is that he's willing to go with a gamble if he thinks it's the best strategy. You want to just sit the guy down sometimes and say to him that he needs to remove the small percentage of idiocy from his game (J8 is not a calling hand!), because he's one of the best tournie players around, and his read on players is often phenomenal.

Hectorjelly

dropsy wrote:

I would agree in most circumstances Hector - I was making that point that as a short stack who really needs to double through that this might have been one of those circumstances where the risk of a call could be worth the reward if you hit. I did say in my post that you would have to assume that you hit one of your cards in order to make the call, but if you do, the odds you posted change dramatically. Also, the position of the raise and the nature of it (all in) gives a higher probability of a weak hand IMO.

In a tournament situation where your objective is to win or place highly (as opposed to limping into the money) I still think a call here is something to consider - as i said above, I don't think I would have done it but it's not as unmerited at it appears at first glance.

Its a - EV decision, but your right; considering his stack size its not an awful one.

Hectorjelly

Marq wrote:

What I like about Norman is that he's willing to go with a gamble if he thinks it's the best strategy. You want to just sit the guy down sometimes and say to him that he needs to remove the small percentage of idiocy from his game (J8 is not a calling hand!), because he's one of the best tournie players around, and his read on players is often phenomenal.

Norman is willing to gamble;

When he thinks he has the best of it
When he thinks he has the worst of it
If its the weekend
If its during the week

pokertroll

I don't think 3300 in chips should have been a panic situation for Norman - I certainly wasn't panicking with my 3600, I was just being proactive :-) He had a whole round to find a hand - 10 players at the table. I just think that he overrates hands like KQ, like a lot of players do and can't get away from it. At best its a coin flip - there is still the posibility that I would play AK or AQ the same way and in that case he is severely dominated. Remember, he is calling for his seat in this game.

Marq, Its funny that you mention the hand a while back when he called my all-in with bottom pair (of 3s) after I missed my flush. I was thinking at the time that it was a great call but don't you remember a couple of hands previous to that (might have been the first hand of the night) when Norman called an all-in on a flop of AKX with pocket 3s. Of course, the other guy has 2 pair A and K.

Whats the pattern? is the guy a great reader of the game or does he find it hard to throw away a pair of 3s or KQ for that matter?

careca

I don't like sitting on the fence here but I think both Mark and Marq have good points. I don't like his call with KQ and he is definetly just gambling. As Hector points out he could have been miles behind. On the other hand I sat next to Norman one night and saw him play some of the best poker I have ever seen (he was showing me his cards a lot), as Marq has pointed out.

Anyway, off to London early tomorrow to kick gutshots ass and watch the pool destroy chelskea.

Marq (captain), get some good sleep over the weekend for the dream team on Monday night

Easy Money

Marq

pokertroll wrote:

Whats the pattern? is the guy a great reader of the game or does he find it hard to throw away a pair of 3s or KQ for that matter?

To be honest, I think it's a bit of both - that's what I meant when I said I'd like to see him play without that 10% idiocy. He does get attached to hands, and he does take the game much more personally than most. I still think that he knew exactly what he was getting himself in for in that hand against you last night. I'm just speculating I suppose. And for the record, there's no love lost between Norman and I - the guy hates my guts, but I do think he's a great player.

(still would have preferred the pair of 3's myself though)

Easy Money

Yup, after Dapper didn't come through for me last night I have to win money myself now, so I'll be raring to go come Monday.

pokertroll

Marq wrote:

(still would have preferred the pair of 3's myself though)

I would have preferred not to be called but no point in agonising over it too much. Myself and Norman have had a lot of showdowns in the past. He does tend to be luckier than me - WPC event when I called his all-in with 5-6 against my AK in the BB- but I did have my my reward a couple of weeks back in the Merrion when I put Norman on tilt. He went all-in 4 times in a row and I called and won each time (with Ace Rag even), moving from 3k to 20K just before the end of the rebuy period..

Good points were made all round - thanks for the discussion and best of luck in the Gutshot event.

Lafortezza

Hectorjelly wrote:

Calling all ins with KQ except in exceptional situations is the sign of a poor player.

I knew henbane was a terrible player.

In this situation mark I'd say that Norman thought you were trying to steal from the button. He'd probably have taken the 52/48 shot if you had a lower pocket pair, but if he thought you might be stealing with K10 or QJ then he was right to call. The chance that you might have Ax or a QQ or better was one he was happy enough to take.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

I knew henbane was a terrible player.

In this situation mark I'd say that Norman thought you were trying to steal from the button. He'd probably have taken the 52/48 shot if you had a lower pocket pair, but if he thought you might be stealing with K10 or QJ then he was right to call. The chance that you might have Ax or a QQ or better was one he was happy enough to take.

You really have to be grasping at straws to put your opponent on K10 or QJ, in that situation there are far more hands that dominate you than vice versa. In situations like that, I think if you cant beat ace rag, then you should fold. KQ is a hand that looks good; but gets people into trouble a lot. It doesnt have much equity in all in situations. I often see inexperienced, or just plain bad, players calling raises with it, (all in or otherwise) and getting themselves in trouble. AQ is considered a trouble hand, KQ is a terrible hand in NL.

In this case there seems to be a consensus that Norman is a good player, with easily identifiable weaknesses.

Well done in the big tournament btw.


EDIT: Apologies, all that writing and it can be summmed up it up in one line. This is a a fundamental NL rule; Avoid situations where you're either a coinflip or a large dog for all of your chips. Thats why calling an all in with 22 is just about the worst play you can do, but calling an all in with AK is reasnable, even though technically 22 has a bigger equity all in then AK.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

I knew henbane was a terrible player.

In this situation mark I'd say that Norman thought you were trying to steal from the button. He'd probably have taken the 52/48 shot if you had a lower pocket pair, but if he thought you might be stealing with K10 or QJ then he was right to call. The chance that you might have Ax or a QQ or better was one he was happy enough to take.

In the other post I was going to mention that the only other reason you might call with this hand is for metagame considerations; if your opponents are aware that you are prepared to call with crap then they are far less likely to try and steal from you. Paul Philips has a short entry on this subject in his blog:

"Articulate or not, that's a great point. The advertised willingness to play the "mutual assured destruction" game is a huge asset in the tournament poker metagame. It's entirely possible that I rank guys who take that to extremes too highly (e.g. hansen, flack, ivey) because they will bust me far more often than more conservative players will, possibly even at cost to their own short-term EV."

http://www.livejournal.com/users/extempore/57543.html

Lafortezza

Maybe Norman thought he had a read on Mark, and thought Mark was on a total bluff? I give Norman more credit for having a good reason to call with KQ. He's played far too much poker to think that KQo is a good hand to call an all-in with.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

Maybe Norman thought he had a read on Mark, and thought Mark was on a total bluff? I give Norman more credit for having a good reason to call with KQ. He's played far too much poker to think that KQo is a good hand to call an all-in with.

Maybe your right, you have probably played with him more than I have (and you were there!), but thats definitely not the impression I get from Norman. A few months ago in the 100 FO in the merrion, I raised preflop with JJ, and check raised him all in on a J10x suited flop. He said: "I know you have an over pair" and called with A10. My raise was about 4 times the pot and we both had pretty good stacks. He can be an intimidating player, especially if youve never played him before, but Ive seen him make a lot of stupid calls.