Could Ireland/uk use a Patroit Act?

magick

Just interested to see what peoples opinions are of this, a friend and I were talking about it he seemed that it would be a good idea because of uk probs with IRA and maybe AL Queda. Ireland for IRA/UVF etc terror groups. Personally i think it would be a bad idea, granted the security forces cant be everywhere but why give up some of your rights.

flogen

Well the patriot act has proven itself to be the big mistake people warned of in the US, so I would hate to see it happen here.
It erodes too many rights and freedoms. Also the way things are now I don't think such a draconian measure would be needed to keep Irish terrorists in check.

Britain did tighten its laws after sept 11th too, although not as severely (but I think it did still create a lot of anger)

flogen

elivsvonchiaing

magick wrote:

Just interested to see what peoples opinions are of this, a friend and I were talking about it he seemed that it would be a good idea because of uk probs with IRA and maybe AL Queda. Ireland for IRA/UVF etc terror groups. Personally i think it would be a bad idea, granted the security forces cant be everywhere but why give up some of your rights.

M8 when you mention IRA and Al Queda in the one sentence, there is now some poor asshole in Langley scrutinising your previous posts...

I know people and have sent email to them: that would encriminate me in at least 4 global conflicts. It wasn't me. Same poor asshole has worked this out. 10 years ago it was fashionable to prefix all posts with somehthing like - Bombs - anthrax - yield should be 10m!

I'm actually for retinal scan at airports; getting a drivers license; registering citizenship etc. This can be abused too - but there has to be a higher order - beating terrorism.

I would, howerever, have problems with causing 2 hr delays at airports- the security firm associated with Dubya!

Hobbes

UK has already had it, and it failed. Or do you not remember internment?

bonkey

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

M8 when you mention *** and *** in the one sentence, there is now some poor asshole in Langley scrutinising your previous posts...

I know people and have sent email to them: that would encriminate me in at least 4 global conflicts.

And now you have some...nice person...in Langley (hello Langley person...see, I'm not abusive like them. Ra Ra USA) reading your past posts, and seeing that you've been "involved" in 4 global conflicts by admission!!!

I'm actually for retinal scan at airports; getting a drivers license; registering citizenship etc. This can be abused too - but there has to be a higher order - beating terrorism.

But hang on....

The September 11 terrorists all held valid passports. With those valid passports, they could obtain drivers licenses etc. Not one of them tried to be anyone other than who their valid passport said they were, which meant that their retinal scans would match up with those belonging to the "real" passport holder...

So exactly how does any of that help make anyone more secure? It might make ppl feel warm m safe, but it isn't realistically reducing the risk from attacks that I can see.

jc

Meh

We already have laws which are arguably worse than the Patriot Act -- the non-jury Special Criminal Court, convictions on the word of a Garda superintendent alone, mandatory data retention for telephone companies.

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

So exactly how does any of that help make anyone more secure? It might make ppl feel warm m safe, but it isn't realistically reducing the risk from attacks that I can see.

jc

But it's great for keeping rock stars from coming to your country.

Sparks

And the rumours I've heard about the Civil Contingencies bill passed in UK during the hunt ban protests say it's even worse than the Patriot act, as it's supposedly right up there with the Contingencies bill passed by the Weimar Republic...

sceptre

sovtek wrote:

But it's great for keeping rock stars from coming to your country.

Well he is being followed by a moon shadow.

ArthurDent

Cat Stevens a rockstar -ugh shudder! That's me up all night with bloody "Father and Son" running through my head - thanks guys :eek:

ChipZilla

magick wrote:

Just interested to see what peoples opinions are of this, a friend and I were talking about it he seemed that it would be a good idea because of uk probs with IRA and maybe AL Queda. Ireland for IRA/UVF etc terror groups. Personally i think it would be a bad idea, granted the security forces cant be everywhere but why give up some of your rights.

I agree with Benjamin Franklin, who said:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The UK hasn't had a problem with the IRA in years. And anybody who comes out with the old chestnut "If you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to fear" is full of crap.

sovtek

ChipZilla wrote:

And anybody who comes out with the old chestnut "If you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to fear" is full of crap.

Something made very obvious earlier this week.

grumpytrousers

true story....related to this...while living in london, I rang a pal o' mine whose name isn't Eamon, but certainly sounds Irish. My own name isn't exactly Vladimir, but certainly isn't 'local'.

As me and my pal discussed his impending visit to chez moi, I mentioned the fact that normally he'd have been able to cross Hammersmith bridge but couldn't "cos the fookin' ra took the fooker out for a few weeks"

...pause...

heard these clicks on the line

me: did you hear that
Eamon: No, what
me: I just mentioned the ra and the bridge and used words normally innocently associated with balloons
Emaon: what? you mentioned the ra blowing up the Hammersmith bridge
me: Aye
Eamon: well
me: I said yes
Eamon: Sorry didn't hear you, some funny ****ing clicks on my phone line here

SIMULTANEOUSLY: HELLO there MI5.

that was years ago...post 9/11 Christ alone knows what its like presently

I initially tried to post this using more coy language but said feckit...I've nowt to hide and it's a true story and I can account for my movements around that time:D

elivsvonchiaing

grumpytrousers wrote:

...
SIMULTANEOUSLY: HELLO there MI5.

that was years ago...post 9/11 Christ alone knows what its like presently

I initially tried to post this using more coy language but said feckit...I've nowt to hide and it's a true story and I can account for my movements around that time:D

This could have been just paranoia - and a nasty neighbour attempting to gimp a free-phone call off your line...

My story is thick Paddy just arrived in London. Everyone I knew was miles away. So I started using chatlines over the phone during the week nights to pass the time. I met this bird who I started chatting to. We agreed to meet and did. It just went downhill from there... (no chemistry). We did chat for a bit, but it clearly wasn't going anywhere. So to relieve the awkward silence. She said: "So do you work around here?" - "Yeah - just across the road". Out of politeness I ask "So where do you work?" - "Oh it's a building on the Thames just down from..." - and from phone conversations about security in the building she worked - I got MI5.

The sad thing is I only thought about this after I left her. Didn't blink an eye when she described the building.

Got totally paranoid about this - only reason being I know a guy who knows everybody whose probably on a number of watch lists (probably just two though).

Years later I really think it was just coincidence I met her; she may have made up where she worked or was just a frustrated secretary who thought wtf protocol my arse, and just said where she worked to see the reaction.

Paranoia is easy to fall into... Howdee folks in Langley BTW.

She was definitely not Miss Moneypenny

wheels of ire

The banner ad on this site just happens to offer 'Ira information'.
Which I suspect is info on an Amercian tax form.
Still it is a bit odd, no?

arcadegame2004

Well I personally believe that national governments should not be allowed to exploit the threat of terrorism to roll back too many freedoms of their citizens. Putin is an even worse example of this than Bush and I don't think people should sit back and do nothing if a Western government tried to ban all independent media, including where excuses such as : they owe money to a semi-state company (which Putin used as an excuse for Gazprom's takeover of MediaMost (formerly owned by Vladmir Gusinsky whose empire was heavily critical of the war in Chechnya). Unfortunately, our Constitution makes freedom of the press "subject to public order and morality", meaning that if this were to happen, it is possible that it would be constitutional

On the more specific question of the Patriot Act itself, I certainly agree that it is being abused. The ultimate example of this is exemplified by Guantanamo Bay. Okay, so mayeb Guantanamo Bay isn't strictly-speaking, US sovereign-territory, but as I understand the Patriot Act, it includes internment powers and it would seem that excessive use is being made of them on the basis of someone having an Arab-sounding name or being an Arab-American or Muslim. We saw in NI how such indiscriminate use of this weapon can make the problem of terrorism worse by engendering bitterness and resentment. Unfortunately, most Americans consider themselves and some even consider their President to be above criticism, as demonstrated by the hysterical reaction of some in the US to the assertive interview by Carole Coleman on Prime Time recently. Given what we have discovered in the past 10 years or so about corruption in the body-politic, I would recommend to Americans that they question the actions of their government, instead of being led like sheep.

wheels of ire

I couldn't agree with you more.
An undefined 'Global Terrorism' is being invoked to justify repressive actions by all kinds of authoritarian powers, a lot of whom are only slightly democratic.
BTW my last post about the banner ad which was at the top of the page was not a piss-take, but seems to have offended someone.If they would enlighten me, I'd have a chance to understand how, not having logged-on to give offence. I prefer sensible discussion to abuse-shouting.