Drug Rape Hysteria

BrianD3

There were two interesting articles in the papers recently about drug rape. In this week's Sunday Indo there was an article entitled "Drug rape doesn't happen, alcohol is the real culprit: how science has shown that drug rape is just another sensational urban myth". The article quotes some independent sources to back up this statement.

*According to Dr. Mary Houlihan from the Rotunda sexual assault unit, there has never been a single proven case of drug rape in this country. Lab tests have never found traces of Rohypnol or any other so-called date rape drugs in any samples taken from alleged victims of drug rape.

*Garda spokesperson Martin McCasey echoes this view.

*Dr. David Williams of TCD Pharmacology Dept points out that drugs such as Rohypnol are controlled drugs which require special prescriptions etc. and that this makes them difficult to acquire and makes widespread street use highly unlikely.

In addition, Mark Rogers from the manufacturers of Rohypnol states that Rohypnol is insoluble in drinks and has a dye in it, so spiking is difficult. Also, someone's drink would have to be spiked with the equivalent of 15 tablets of Rohypnol to produce the symptoms claimed. Examples of such dramatic claims include victims being knocked senseless in less than 20 minutes, being left unconscious for at least 4 hours, having no recollection of what has happened when they eventually come to etc. etc.

In yesterday's Irish Indo, there was a different viewpoint. Article entitled "Why you can't take your eyes off your drink". It mentions various statistics and anecdotes relating to drug rape. Crucially, no independent scientific evidence is mentioned. For example, according to the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, 3% of its clients last year *said* they were victims of drug rape. A British TV programme where 1 in 4 women *said* they had their drink spiked is referred to. Some girl who was on holiday in Marbella *said* her drink *must have been* spiked. But no actual proof.

The article seems to gloss over the fact that women who claim that their drink has been spiked prior to rape have often consumed excessive quantities of alcohol. Rosemary Daly of the DRCC advises women to be careful where they leave their drink and to be vigilant in case someone attempts to spike it.

She fails to advise women to drink responsibly which seems like a glaring omission. She is quoted as saying that women's drinking habits are *not* the cause of rape, rather that men are the cause of rape. Which is basically correct - but surely advising women to drink responsibly would be more practical advice than giving advice on how to avoid being spiked with drugs. Also would it not be more PC and accurate to say that a "small minority of men" are responsible for rapes rather than saying simply "men" are responsible.

Actually, this sounds suspiciously like the bullsh1t that radical feminists spout about how men can't be trusted, how all men are potential rapists and how women need to be on their guard because of all the hoards of men out there who are waiting for an opportunity to spike some woman's drink with Rohypnol :rolleyes:

I know which side of the argument I'm coming down on. The scientific side. What do others think? Is this just the usual media hysteria or is there a hidden epidemic of drug rape in this country?

BrianD3

MrNuked

Other things than Rohypnol could be used to spike someone's drink. Ecstacy or vodka for instance.

secret_squirrel

There have been a couple of tv programs about it - C4 I think it was. They were wandering around Cardiff and the like, interviewing young girls. Something like 25% of them were claiming to have had their drinks spiked. Crucially the program was making very little distinction between spiking with booze (whose mates havent dont that to them at least once) or with something like E or Rhohypnol. Personally I think its being blown out of proportion - does it go on? I would guess it does, but in a tiny amount of cases where the girl in question actually thinks it has happened.

Having said that I would be interested to know if that unit at the rotunda tests every girls sample for Rhohypnol and the like.

Personally I think its mostly the girly version of the mythical 'bad pint'

ykt0di9url7bc3

secret_squirrel wrote:

Personally I think its mostly the girly version of the mythical 'bad pint'

<me> Jesus! you were fairly mouldy last night Sarah...you passed out on the couch...
<Sarah> Someone must have spiked my drink...
<me> you were putting them back fairly hard?
<Sarah> I never get badly drunk, what are you looking at me like that for?...ITS NOT MY FAULT...I KEEEEEELL YOU!!!!!!

25% is very high

gnu

I heard a report from the UK of cigarette being "spiked" by dipping it in embalming fluid. I think there was something like that in Six Feet Under.

angeldelight

possibly is being blown out of proportion but is it better to warn ppl etc. better safe than sorry and all that. and there's a bit of a difference between a friend spiking ur drink when ur there wit lots of them to keep an eye on you and sum1 else slipping extra alcohol into ur drink, and ur left to fend for urself?

bonkey

The one thing that gets me....

a headline saying "Drug rape doesn't happen", and then an article clarifying that what it really meant is that Drug Rape hasn't proveably happened (or probably hasn't happened) in terms of the reported cases in Ireland.

Big difference.

jc

leeroybrown

I'm sure there have been a few unreported cases of actual drug rape in this country, but last time I heard the official statistics there had been no reported cases where tests subsequently proved that a drug such as rohypnol had been involved as opposed to alcohol (I'm aware that many of these drigs are chosen as the time they remain tracable for is low).

I think that rape is a disgusting crime and have huge sympathy for anyone who has been the victim of it but that said whenever I've heard representatives of groups like the DRCC they come across as extremists with one agenda. The last time I saw their representatives in public discussion (Q&A a while back, I think) their representative was openly claiming that any man who had sex with a woman who had consumed a lot of alcohol was a rapist, and that they should be legally pursued. I can have no respect for any group that take such an extreme and unrealistic view, and ultimately will disregard most of the things they have to say because of it.

Perhaps drug rape might get treated more seriously if those campaigning for it's recognition came across as a reasonable and realistic group.

BrianD3

a headline saying "Drug rape doesn't happen", and then an article clarifying that what it really meant is that Drug Rape hasn't proveably happened (or probably hasn't happened) in terms of the reported cases in Ireland.

I agree. It was a sensational and potentially misleading headline designed to attract the reader's attention. However, this to be expected from newspapers and TBH this is the first time I've seen an article questioning the "conventional wisdom" on drug rape which is that drug rape is a real and widespread problem. So overall I think the article was worthwhile as a counter to the numerous articles I've read that appear to scaremonger about the drug rape "epidemic".

BrianD3

nxbyveromdwjpg

Part of teenage culture is drinking far too much alcohol. Always has been. Except now people don't just put their hands up and say "I was stupid, I drank too much alcohol". Now it has to be somebody else's fault, the drink must have been spiked with something other than alcohol.

I'll go out on a limb here and say I agree with the article headline and doubt it has ever happened in this country, ever.

Rhohypnol is just a boogie man, as someone already stated its insoluble in drinks and has dye in it, and 15 insolubale tablets fizzing coloured dye in a drink just doesnt seem like a plausible scenario to me (and even thats only if john q. rapist could even get his hands on the stuff in the first place)

Spike a drink with a E? Again insoluble, and also have you any idea how fowl that would taste? Not to mention that it wouldnt be any help in sedating the victim in the slightest (probably do the exact opposite) making it a pointless endevour in the first place.

eth0_

Rohypnol isn't very difficult to obtain in Ireland, actually. There are many other drugs that are soluble and colourless that would produce similar effects.

And if there ISN'T a rohypnol epidemic....why did Hoffman-La Roche start adding a colourant to the drug so it would change the colour of a drink it was slipped into?

But those are very interesting points. I've been witness to a few girls claiming their drinks had been spiked and only one actually sounded like she had ACTUALLY had her drink spiked and wasn't just blindly drunk.

Gurgle

nm wrote:

I'll go out on a limb here and say I agree with the article headline and doubt it has ever happened in this country, ever.

I'll go further out on a limb and say that the average Irish rapist just isn't that sophisticated.

Why would they bother ?

They rarely get reported, never mind caught, convicted, sentenced and punished.

And if they do get dragged through the whole system ?
Worst possible case for the rapist is a couple of years inside. When released, they can carry on as if nothing happened.

FX Meister

I dunno, happened to a mate of mine in the George, group of guys he had met were buying him drinks and on the second bottle as he took a sip he felt a tablet in his mouth and spat it out but he had already taken enough of the drug to mess him up for the night. And I've also noticed in the george that a lot of the people keep a bear mat over their drink, obviously so people can't spike them. So is it a myth here too are are they just to paro in the george. I can see though that a lot of women might get too drunk on a night out and a man take advantage of this.

sliabh

eth0_ wrote:

And if there ISN'T a rohypnol epidemic....why did Hoffman-La Roche start adding a colourant to the drug so it would change the colour of a drink it was slipped into?

Because of the bad publicity. If the public get hysterical enough a company will do things it knows to be daft just to please them.

Remember Shell and the Brent Spar? Shell knew it was disposing of the platform in the correct way but a huge public campaign forced them to scrap the platform on land. At least Greenpeace had the good grace to admit afterwards that they had goofed.

BrianD3

Rohypnol isn't very difficult to obtain in Ireland, actually

So the pharmacology lecturer from TCD is wrong?

why did Hoffman-La Roche start adding a colourant to the drug so it would change the colour of a drink it was slipped into?

Perhaps it was an attempt to cover their own arses in the face of unfounded, hysterical, "lynch mob" type accusations?

One part of the article that I didn't mention: according to the guy from Hoffman, there were widespread reports from the US about Rohypnol being used for date rape, at a time when the drug wasn't even available on the US market. How accurate this is I don't know.

BrianD3

Fwaggle

I don't mean to undermine rape victims in any way because a good friend of mine was raped by a relative when she was young and shes pretty messed up still because of it, but i knew a young girl who claimed to have been drugged and raped, but when the police started asking her questions about it, she broke down and admitted she lied. She was drunk and had sex with someone consensually but she didn't want her to father to find out so she made up the rape story. Poor young fella was arrested and branded a rapist for nothing.

Women that do that sort of thing are the reason why real rape victims are often afraid to come forward, because of fear that no one will believe them, and its why courts often can't convict either. One word against another.

I would well believe that rohypnol wasn't the cause of as many rapes as they say. It gives women who drink too much, have sex and then are ashamed about it, an excuse to cry rape.

Makes me sick tbh.

fozzle

I think the real problem here is that poeple assume that spiking means putting something into alcohol. I believe this does happen in Ireland, but not as much as is suggested by certain groups. But spiking also covers putting alcohol into a non-alcoholic drink, and this certainly happens.

Unfortuneatly girls seem unable to admit to being incapacitated purely due to alcohol, as they believe they won't be taken seriously. Unfortuneatly, date-rape enabled purely by alcohol consumption is most certainly an issue in this country. However, there are girls (and guys) who use it as an excuse to hide a consensual sexual event, and this is why people don't believe in the real date-rape incidents. Sorry if this isn't worded very well, it just makes me so angry that people could belittle something so serious just so mammy or daddy, boyfriend or girlfriend doesn't know they got jiggy with someone.

Btw, angeldelight, if I had friends who were willing to spike my drink with alcohol I wouldn't call them friends for very long, they should respect your wish to drink or not to drink. If they are presurising you into drinking, especially in such an underhanded manner, you should seriously re-think weather you want to be in these situations with them.

seamus

MrNuked wrote:

Other things than Rohypnol could be used to spike someone's drink. Ecstacy or vodka for instance.

Vodka? How in God's name could you effectively spike someone's drink with vodka. Unless they're drinking Aftershock all night, they're going to notice that particularly harsh alcohol in their drink.

leeroybrown

You'd be surprised sometimes. I think that quite often a spiked drink might be a case of making someone who is already drunk that bit more drunk. Having seen a friend drink a pint of Bulmers that had been jokingly laced with Grappa on his birthday (I didn't find out it had been done till afterwards) and not notice I'd believe anything. He was already quite drunk but you can imagine but that was a whole lot of alcohol not to notice.

Kell

One thing confuses me about the effects of date rape drugs vs excessive quantities of alchohal.

When anyone here remembers being twatted drunk, you can probably recall falling round the place, not being able to string a sentence together, slurring etc etc or quite simply not remembering anything. If your off your head on speed/ecstasy/coke/acid a different kind of buzz. The shít in your head is mad, but you generally have your wits about you.

Descriptions of victims of drugs used for date rape including a close friend go along the lines of- time moving like treacle, couldnt actually move my limbs, brain screaming no but mouth unable to spill out the words and generally things to that effect. Now compare that to the buzz of alchohal and recreational narcotics and theres not much of a comparison really. So, either "drug rape victims" are basing their story on what they have heard the drugs to do or they have indeed been drugged/spiked whatever. I find it difficult to contemplate that descriptions of the effects of rape drugs would be based on urban legend though.

Or-

The introduction of a traumatic event to an already heavily inebriated mind causes the body to go into shock creating the "time like treacle" scenario. Hmmn.

K-

gom

Perhaps the reason that their our no proven cases of Drug Rape in Ireland is deu to the fact that no gardai station is equiped to test for the presence of the drugs involved in Drug Rape. Most Date Rape drugs leave your system within 24 hours any way.
I know two people that have been raped. One was suspected Drug related and absolutely true given that all she had to drink that night was 1 pint of guiness.
Most people never report being raped to the Gardí and only a small number over that report it to the Likes of th Rape Crisis Centre. Even when it is reported it is usually too late to detect the drugs involved as it can be days/weeks/months/years since the assualt took place.

Leader Article on Date Rape in G2 Sept 9th 2004
Nigella lawson on Date Rape Men fall prey to date rape drug gangs
Is there an easy way to test for date rape drugs?


In regarding to that Sunday Indo article I'm not suprised it had such a headline. The Irish Indo and the Sunday Indo in particular are all about presenting an ultra-conservative spectical Irish image. They will moan at anything and Sir. Anto wishs to keep the old pre-90s Ireland ideals of society.

BrianD3

One thing to remember is that there are plenty of people out there who take drugs *and* alcohol, rather than drugs *or* alcohol. Excessive alcohol on its own MAY not produce the same symptoms as something like Rohypnol. But what if the person is taking a combination of any of the following - alcohol, E, speed, acid, nicotine, coke, hash, red bull, various prescription medicines etc.

What if the person has an infection or is depressed. I'm not a medical professional so not qualified to speak about these things - however I did notice when I was drinking that drinking while I had a cold was not a good idea because the drink would affect me much more quicky and produce different "feelings" than if I didn't have a cold.

BrianD3

Seraphina

this is almost as bad as blaming the women for being raped cause the way she was dressed was asking for it. so she drank alot? that doesn't mean she deserved to be raped. and trust me, if the girl was too drunk to remember, then she's way to drunk to have consensual sex. i dunno about you, but i have to be falling all over the place to not remember, and in that case i wouldn't be in any state to put up a struggle. that doesn't mean the sex is consensual though.

drugs like that are used because the effects are somewhat similar to far too much alcohol, and often tests are done far too late for detection. i think some cases are probably misreported, but that doesn't mean you should go around saying that every girl who claims her drink was spiked should be accused of lying and just drinking far too much.

seamus

Seraphina wrote:

and trust me, if the girl was too drunk to remember, then she's way to drunk to have consensual sex. i dunno about you, but i have to be falling all over the place to not remember, and in that case i wouldn't be in any state to put up a struggle. that doesn't mean the sex is consensual though.

That's a delightfully grey area though. Unless someone sets out to get someone hammered for the purpose of having sex with them, then I can't condone it as rape in any form. We all make drunken mistakes. Sex is just another one of them. If a man got absolutely hammered, and got chatted up by a big heifer, and taken home with her, only to wake up with no memory of the night before, would people be so quick to shout "Non-consentual sex! RAPE!".

I don't think so.

BrianD3

Perhaps the reason that their our no proven cases of Drug Rape in Ireland is deu to the fact that no gardai station is equiped to test for the presence of the drugs involved in Drug Rape.

It's not the job of the Gardai to test for drugs. The police cannot be expected to have either the equipment or expertise to do this. That's why, in cases of drink driving, the services of a medical professional are needed to confirm a suspicion of drink driving. And why you cannot be convicted of drink driving solely on the basis of a breathalyser reading.

In allegations of drug rape I believe the medical side of things is handled by sexual assault units in hospitals who will take blood/urine samples, preserve them if necessary and then send them to the State Laboratory or Forensic Laboratory for analysis.

Most Date Rape drugs leave your system within 24 hours any way

Do they? I have a source which states that many drugs remain detectable in urine for several days. These drugs include Ketamine (often accused of being a date rape drug) which is apparently detectable 5-7 days after taking.

BrianD3

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i dunno about you, but i have to be falling all over the place to not remember, and in that case i wouldn't be in any state to put up a struggle. that doesn't mean the sex is consensual though.

and why should the man have to take responsibility for the fact that you got yourself into that state? if he's drunk too, then why is he accountable for both his and your actions when you can't even be held for yours?

gom

BrianD3 wrote:

Do they? I have a source which states that many drugs remain detectable in urine for several days. These drugs include Ketamine (often accused of being a date rape drug) which is apparently detectable 5-7 days after taking.

BrianD3

Ketamine is a bloody horse tanquiliser. of course it stays in the system...

Rohypnol is a paralaysis inducing drug and in most cases is not the prefared drug of choice in the UK anyway(i'm using teh UK as it has known convictions for drug rape)

I'm not denying that some cases of claimed drug rape may in fact be just alcohol rape. As I previously stated two of my friends were raped. One suspected drug rape. The other was extremely drunk. Everyone knows there is a difference between drunken sex and rape. It doesn't take a genious to recognise the difference.
No consent and it is rape. Its that simple. There is no debate. Thats what the law says. Struggle, Treat to your life, drugs or no drugs, mini-skirt or non... the only differenciation that can be made is if it was consentual or not.

BrianD your scepticism amazes me. Are you a Judge or Garda by any chance? because these are the kind of attitudes that Irish establishment seems to present time-after-time.

There are many drugs and sometimes a mixture involved in date rape. For god sake Paracetamol mixed with alcohol can case people to get tunnel vision and fall asleep very easily. Zydol-prescipted widely to anyone with chronic pain such as artitus, MS and any other long-term pains is one of the easily available drugs assosiated with Date Rape.

What would you say if your own mother, sister or dauther convided in you that they believed that after a night out with some friends and one or two drinks they awoke to find themselfs half naked in a bathroom, hotel room or even there own bed and have no idea who they had sex with???

Would you display a similar attitude to this and questioning line of this manner?
Would you accuse them of giving into a hysteria and blame them instead for just being drunk?

secret_squirrel

Seraphina wrote:

but that doesn't mean you should go around saying that every girl who claims her drink was spiked should be accused of lying and just drinking far too much.

I dont think anyone was suggesting that - merely suggesting that drink spiking happens much less than people might wish to think or admit to themselves.

Kell

Mordeth wrote:

and why should the man have to take responsibility for the fact that you got yourself into that state? if he's drunk too, then why is he accountable for both his and your actions when you can't even be held for yours?

Hmmn. This issue apparantly stumps a lot of judges and jurys alike. Where do you draw the line and ask people to actually take responsibilty for their own actions i.e. male or female getting buckled drunk and having an undesirable episode.

I would say more commonly than not, the dumb founded fella is going "but she was an active participant??" when faced with "you assaulted me when I was shítfaced".

Yes, no one deserves to be raped, but a little responsibilty for ones actions is required so the victim can definitively say "I said no, put up a struggle and can categorically state that I was raped".

K-

gom

Kell wrote:

"I said no, put up a struggle and can categorically state that I was raped".

K-

Omg

No means NO!

You don't have to put up a struggle for it to be rape.
No one gets accused of rape if it was bad drunken sex. People just regret such promiscuous behaviour and think next time before getting that drunk...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

What would you say if your own mother, sister or dauther convided in you that they believed that after a night out with some friends and one or two drinks they awoke to find themselfs half naked in a bathroom, hotel room or even there own bed and have no idea who they had sex with???

actualy that happened to a good friend of mine during the week, I reckon his bottle of vodka must have been spiked because he was acting crazy and woke up beside some strange girl in her bed, with no idea who she was or where he was. It's a terrible state of affairs isn't it ? the poor chap. he must be devestated.

Kell

gom wrote:

Omg

No means NO!...

I wasnt implying that it didnt. Either no or struggling generally suffice.

In answer to your questions earlier about questioning your sister, mother etc if they woke up somwhere not knowing who they had sex with? I questioned a good friend of mine who had repressed memory of such an ordeal to vague memory. After about thirty minutes of sensitive questioning, turns out she wasnt raped at all. Actually didnt even have sex with the guy.

So the answer to your question is, yes I would display the same attitude as I have here and yes I do adopt the same line of questioning. Peoples brains are funny things and given long enough with an idea, they will believe anything (not meant in a bad way). Careful and sensitive questioning usually uncovers the truth be it nasty or benign.

K-

Silent Grape

sigh.

i was raped while hammered drunk and high as a kite.

it was still rape, he was sober. perhaps he was merely 'taking advantage' which is another grey area.

but it doesnt matter HOW drunk a person is, if they are capable of thinking coherently enough to think about sex, then they are able to think coherently about the person they're going to be having sex with, and know whether she or he wants it. you have to AGREE to have sex, lying there is not agreeing.
anybody who takes advantage of someone too drunk or stoned to know what they're doing is scum.

the only reason my friends belived me that i had actually been raped (as opposed to drunken sex) was that he beat me while i was unconscious.

Seraphina

Mordeth wrote:

and why should the man have to take responsibility for the fact that you got yourself into that state? if he's drunk too, then why is he accountable for both his and your actions when you can't even be held for yours?

he doesn't have to take responsibility, but he doesn't have to take advantage. im not talking about a girl really drunk and jumping on every guy she sees, then claiming rape. i'm talking about the girl who needs helping home (and lets face it, this happens alot) who can't stand by herself, let alone have sex consensually. a situation such as Silent Grape's (sorry for bringing you into this) where the girl didn't initiate whats going on, and certainly doesn't want it, but is unable to stop it.

GuanYin

Rohypnol is neither easily available or inconspicuous in this country.

Just thought I should clarify that.

There are plenty of drugs that are readily available and could be used for date rape however, fortunately few have been copped onto in this country (and I'm not going to name them here).

The biggest date rape drug and most commonly used is alcohol. In most chem screens alcohol is all thats found.

Elimination of other date rape drugs from a human system are not fast. Certainly they would be traceable for 24 hours at least.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Seraphina wrote:

he doesn't have to take responsibility, but he doesn't have to take advantage. im not talking about a girl really drunk and jumping on every guy she sees, then claiming rape. i'm talking about the girl who needs helping home (and lets face it, this happens alot) who can't stand by herself, let alone have sex consensually. a situation such as Silent Grape's (sorry for bringing you into this) where the girl didn't initiate whats going on, and certainly doesn't want it, but is unable to stop it.

if I drank myself into oblivion, then walked out into the middle of the road and got hit by a passing car.. it would be my fault.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see much of a difference in this situation. Sure he was a **** for taking advantage, but if you're going to get into that state and leave yourself open to be taken advantage of like that, *shrug*.

Moriarty

Mordeth wrote:

if I drank myself into oblivion, then walked out into the middle of the road and got hit by a passing car.. it would be my fault.

The driver would share the blame and they would be tried for manslaughter more than likely.

secret_squirrel

Silent Grape wrote:

sigh.

i was raped while hammered drunk and high as a kite.

it was still rape, he was sober. perhaps he was merely 'taking advantage' which is another grey area.

I dont want to trivialise what happpened to you or in any way question it, but if you were that wasted how do you know he was sober? Obviously he was scum for beating you and deserves his balls cutting off, but he may or may not have been aware he was raping you.
No one deserves what happened to you however, people like that make me ashamed to be male.

the_syco

BrianD3 wrote:

Rohypnol isn't very difficult to obtain in Ireland, actually

So the pharmacology lecturer from TCD is wrong?

Please note; he be talking about getting it legally.
You can get hash, E, heroine, in Dublin. Why not date-rape drugs?

Fwaggle wrote:

Poor young fella was arrested and branded a rapist for nothing.

Women that do that sort of thing are the reason why real rape victims are often afraid to come forward, because of fear that no one will believe them, and its why courts often can't convict either. One word against another.

Actually, under current laws, the man would be branded a rapist, charged, and jailed, but let go if the girl admitted she lied, and the woman would not be named. And yes, it has happened before.

gom wrote:

Omg

No means NO!

You don't have to put up a struggle for it to be rape.
No one gets accused of rape if it was bad drunken sex. People just regret such promiscuous behaviour and think next time before getting that drunk...

Rape = when woman doesn't want to have sex. Rape happens by b/f + husbands.
Rape = if the woman decides that, after putting the condom on him, and during the sex, say no, that this means no, and the guy should have stopped midway, and went his seperate way.


Although drugs are a factor, our soceity must relaise that drink is not good. If a woman, or man, gets so drunk, that they lower their "standerds" (if they have any), and shag some ugly piece of sh|t straight after the club (and I mean on the f'ing wall opposite the niteclub), this is consual sex, and not drug-related rape. Once the people cop on about this, the Gardai should cop on that drug rape actually happens, and is not "just the drink".

Also, BrianD3, after use of Liquid E coma, seizures and respiratory collapse can occur following abuse of Liquid E and, when combined with methamphetamine, there appears to be an increased risk of seizure. Combining use with other drugs such as alcohol can result in nausea and difficulty breathing. Liquid E may also produce withdrawal effects, including insomnia, anxiety, sweating, tremors, rapid or intense drowsiness and impairment of muscles and speech. It's a colourless, odourless liquid with a salty taste and usually comes in small vials or bottles but has also been seen in powder and capsule form.
Also, I'm not going to use its medical name, so that you can't go out and buy it :mad:

seamus

Seraphina wrote:

he doesn't have to take responsibility, but he doesn't have to take advantage. im not talking about a girl really drunk and jumping on every guy she sees, then claiming rape. i'm talking about the girl who needs helping home (and lets face it, this happens alot) who can't stand by herself, let alone have sex consensually. a situation such as Silent Grape's (sorry for bringing you into this) where the girl didn't initiate whats going on, and certainly doesn't want it, but is unable to stop it.

Specific cases are disgustingly objective, but by and large, I would be of the opinion that anything that happens while drunk can't be blamed on another party.
A bit like blaming another driver for crashing into you because you were asleep. However, in the case of sex, it always takes two to tango, and with the exception of rare cases where someone sets out to get another sober person drunk for the purpose of sex, or where someone (possibly even a trusted person - probably the case for Silent Grape) takes advantage of an incapacitated person, either party can't claim rape. If it's something that wouldn't have happened if you were sober - tough.

That's the main problem with "date rape" cases - most were just hammered - and where rape actually did occur, people will dismiss them - "Ah, that's what happens when you're locked". Especially in this country, even the most liberal people have a love affair with alcohol, such that they think everyone drinks, and no-one would take advantage of a drunk person unless they were similarly drunk.

Once you get alcohol involved, the intention of one's actions become so disgustingly grey, I don't think there's anything comparable in law. While I'd like to say "You were hammered, therefore it's your own problem", you can't let others get away for their crimes because their victims were drunk.

BrianD3

Moriarty wrote:

The driver would share the blame and they would be tried for manslaughter more than likely.

No. What would probably happen in the case Mordeth described is that there would be an inquest and a verdict such as "death by misadventure" on the part of the drunk would be returned. The driver of the car would likely get off scot free. OTOH, if a drunk driver mowed down a sober pedestrian crossing the road at a zebra crossing, then the driver would likely be charged with causing death by dangerous driving and could expect a lengthy prison sentence.

BrianD3

Kell

BrianD3 wrote:

No. What would probably happen in the case Mordeth described is that there would be an inquest and a verdict such as "death by misadventure" on the part of the drunk would be returned. The driver of the car would likely get off scot free.

Sorry to be technical, but no. As soon as a pedestrian sets foot onto road, they have right of way. Thats fact. Thats why every driver that hits a pedestrian gets done irrelevant of the fact that pedestrian may have been at fault.

Now back to topic.

Someone asked there a while ago about how rape can be claimed if you were that wankered you couldn't remember where you were and you didnt know if that person was wankered too. To that I would pose, fair cop, the victim may have been out of their skull, but it does take some sort of twisted fúck to get down and dirty if they know how shítfaced their partner is even if she/he is an active participant.

K-

BrianD3

Sorry to be technical, but no. As soon as a pedestrian sets foot onto road, they have right of way. Thats fact. Thats why every driver that hits a pedestrian gets done irrelevant of the fact that pedestrian may have been at fault.

No, it's not that simple. The pedestrian has right of way but also has a duty to take care when crossing a road. If a driver is driving safely and at an appropriate speed and a drunk pedestrian suddenly runs out of a pub in front of his car, the driver will not be charged with manslaughter or causing death by dangerous driving. The driver will still be partly to blame for the accident and his insurance will pay out but any award will be reduced due to negligence/misadventure on the part of the pedestrian.

BrianD3

sliabh

BrianD3 wrote:

No, it's not that simple. The pedestrian has right of way but also has a duty to take care when crossing a road. If a driver is driving safely and at an appropriate speed and a drunk pedestrian suddenly runs out of a pub in front of his car, the driver will not be charged with manslaughter or causing death by dangerous driving. The driver will still be partly to blame for the accident and his insurance will pay out but any award will be reduced due to negligence/misadventure on the part of the pedestrian.
BrianD3

A cousin of mine killed someone in a similar situation to this. The pedestrian ran in front of their car (they were running from the Gardaí at the time) was struck and killed instantally. My cousin was a bit upset, but no blame was attached to him in any way.

chill

BrianD3 wrote:

I know which side of the argument I'm coming down on. The scientific side. What do others think? Is this just the usual media hysteria or is there a hidden epidemic of drug rape in this country?
BrianD3

The trouble is...... no one KNOWS !!!

British TV had a special on it a couple of weeks ago and what came across to me was that they had NO IDEA how much of a problem it is ! They based their estimate on the number of women that claimed they had been drugged ! How nonsensical is that ??
Every night the cities are full of dead drunk women (yes, and men) falling on the floor, vomiting and passing out. How on earth can we accept their 'word' about a subject they themselves have no knowledge of ?

It clearly is a problem........... but until we know HOW much of a problem...

Zombrex

Mordeth wrote:

if I drank myself into oblivion, then walked out into the middle of the road and got hit by a passing car.. it would be my fault.

If you got pissed drunk and a man had ruff anal sex with you, would that be your fault? Would you wake up next day and say "ah the things I do when I am drunk!"

Or if you got pissed drunk and someone took your wallet cause you were to drunk to fight back, would you say "ah fair enought, I was very very drunk"

We do not tolerate a crime being committed against us when we are drunk and more than we do when we are sober. So why is it different for women. It is rape unless the girl is drunk in which case it is a "mistake" :rolleyes:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

If you got pissed drunk and a man had ruff anal sex with you, would that be your fault? Would you wake up next day and say "ah the things I do when I am drunk!"

well, if he raped me.. then he raped me, it's rape.

but if I was pissed, and for some strange reason allowed him to do this to me.. I don't think I'd be too happy with myself in the morning but I like to think I'd have enough sense of personal accountability to accept that **** happens. I got pissed drunk, and consented to it. If I did not wish to give my consent so something like this, then I should not have drank so much and perhaps I oughta think about what it was when I was that drunk that made the idea of gay sex so appealing..

Zombrex

Mordeth wrote:

but if I was pissed, and for some strange reason allowed him to do this to me..

But that is the point. How can you "allow" something to happen to you if you are too drunk to understand and appreciate what is about to happen to you.

Consent means that you fully understand what is happening, and what you expect to happen if you give consent. Just like the law protects someone against a fraud because the person does not understand what is actually happening to them (you sign something to get a package delievered and suddenly find you house is sold to someone from South America) the law protects you if you are not in a fit state to understand and appreciate what is happening to you. It doesn't matter if you are in that state because you have gotten drunk or if you have been drugged by someone else. Just because you have done it to yourself doesn't mean you have given consent to what ever happens to you.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

But that is the point. How can you "allow" something to happen to you if you are too drunk to understand and appreciate what is about to happen to you.

alright, well if someone is *that* drunk.. then I would consider it to be rape yes, but in the marjority of cases.. we still have control over our actions.. we may act in a different "strange" way on the drug but we just have to question why we choose to act the way we do when we drink alcahol. And it is a choice, you may not realise that you are making it but you are. The problem is not the alcahol, it's the person. The drug just helps bring it out. I stopped drinking alcahol just under a year ago because of this, I didn't like the person I became when I drank and I was drinking far, far too much. So I stopped.
*shrug*

Just because someone is out of their mind on drugs does not mean they should be legally "naked" no, but some level of personal accountability and resonsibility has to come into play.

secret_squirrel

Wicknight wrote:

Consent means that you fully understand what is happening, and what you expect to happen if you give consent.

The problem here Wicknight is that you are talking about 'consent' as if its a completely black and white thing, when like much else in life its a huge grey area where both societies responsibilties and a persons responsibilities intersect.

By a strict interpretation of your definition of consent I would be well within my rights in demanding a refund on the last 3 pints of the 9 I drank on Saturday since by the end of the 6th I was so wasted that I didnt fully understand what I was doing. If I tried that I would be laughed out of the pub and the court.

Whilst the issue of rape is a far more serious matter - there is still an element of personal responsibility that needs to be acknowledged.

chill

Wicknight wrote:

But that is the point. How can you "allow" something to happen to you if you are too drunk to understand and appreciate what is about to happen to you.

So you are saying that Men cannot have sex with a woman who is drunk, bacause that is rape ?

Are you serious ?