Celtic are Premiership bound - Desmond

Dub13

Celtic are Premiership bound - Desmond
14/09/2004 - 11:19:46

Celtic will be in the English Premiership in three to four years, according to the club’s major shareholder.

Speaking to Eamon Dunphy on his new morning show on NewsTalk106, Dermot Desmond said: “I think in the next three or four years we’ll see Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership. I think the market will dictate that they want a more competitive Premier League and it’s obvious that Celtic and Rangers should be invited to be part of that.”

He also said that Scotland’s two major clubs “are too big to play in their league. In Scottish football they have to have a rethink to make the league more competitive.”

Mr Desmond added: “Every time that we succeed in Europe or we have such a good record at home, I think it’s recognised by people that viewers, soccer aficionados that Celtic is a team they like watching and I think that is making a good case for Celtic joining the Premiership."

He also rubbished speculation that Celtic manager Martin O’Neill would be leaving the club for less green pastures.

"Every single week there’s speculation about him joining some team, whether it’s Blackburn or Southampton or Chelsea or Man United and Martin is still there," he said.

"If I was to spend time answering that question on a continuous basis, I would have no time to do anything else, neither would Martin O’Neill. He’s committed to Celtic, I’m committed to Celtic and that’s our focus at the present time - there’s no club bigger than Celtic."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/09/14/story166469.html

eirebhoy

It'd be great if it did happen but I'm no more convinced than I was yesterday. What would happen? 5 relegations instead of 1 or 1 promotion instead of 3? I just can't see it happening.

Dub13

I think the mid to lower table clubs in the EPL would be the most aganst it,you could safely say if the old firm were to move south teams like Aston Villa,Spurs,Bolton etc etc would lose out on at least a Uefa cup spot.

andyman

Sepp Blatter also said that in a couple of years he and FIFA are planning to reduce the top flight leagues in Europe to 18 teams

Jivin Turkey

I dont know was it on here or a mate that told it to me, but the best way I think Celtic adn Rangers could approach this would be to enter a reserve team into the Vauxhall Conference or such. This way the team would pretty much guaranteed to be in the Premiership in about 5 years. And no one could really complain.

Dub13

Was there not talk of them both going into the Coca Cola cup (or what ever it is now) a few yaers back...?

Bateman

Am I the only one who thinks it is a stupid idea? Clubs should play in their own leagues, if Celtic and Rangers are not getting enough competition in their own league, tough. It is a ridiculous idea and I could never see all the relevant authorities countenancing it.

Jivin Turkey

Bateman wrote:

Clubs should play in their own leagues.

What about Monaco?

The fact that they are so dominant in their league it would be a benefit for all involved for them to move out of it. I find it hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise, seeing as everybody in the new Scottish league would want to raise the bar and have a craic of winning it, and hence CL football.

Dub13

It has been done before...so it "can" be done...ie Monaco,Cardiff.And in this day age of money rules I would not rule this out by a long shot

The Muppet

I can't see it happening in the given timescale. There would be a lot of objections from existing English clubs and the players representatives so it will be difficult to find a mechanism to include them that will be acceptable to all. Would Scotish football fans be happy to see this happen?

Guy:Incognito

Theres plenty of crap teams doing t so why not decent ones. Swansea, cardiff, Derry im looking at you!.

leeroybrown

There are plenty of examples of teams playing outside their oun country. It's an obvious step for both Celtic and Rangers to want to play in a better league. No disrespect to Scottish football but ultimately there are only two clubs with the financial muscle to win the league.

I think some Celtic/Rangers supporters might be reluctant to move south but most of them know it makes sense. The big problem is that if the FA and SFA agree to parachute the two teams into the Premiership any team below about 10th in the Premiership will feel like they're being pissed on from a great height. Also I could see a requirement for Celtic & Rangers to provide some very large parachute payments for displaced clubs in order to make the space.

Also, I'd foresee a requirement for Uefa to transfer one CL qualification spot south along with the teams.

p.pete

Stekelly wrote:

Theres plenty of crap teams doing t so why not decent ones. Swansea, cardiff, Derry im looking at you!.

And let us not forget Merthyr Tydfil

Imposter

Soccer is now a business. Money determines what happens and if Celtic and Rangers decide they don't want to play in the Scottish league they can do so. They may not get the backing from english clubs to transfer into the premiership (or even the first division) but it would make financial sense for both the premiership as a whole and Celtic and Rangers as clubs to do so. However it would not help or make sense for the weaker premiership teams.

I think the way football is going, it is not too much to suggest that the premiership, scottish league, La Liga, Serie A etc will look very different in a few years (10 or so) to what they are now. Surely a European league is not far off where the richest clubs play against each other (and more or less only each other). I think the G14 could pull out of Uefa (unless Uefa come to some form of compromise with them) and form their own European league. Such a league would generate a lot of TV money as well as attracting all the top players. It would turn the current national leagues into feeder leagues for this superleague and devalue the leagues as a result. It could also cause the end of international football as we know it too.

KdjaCL

This will never happen or if it does ,it very s hort stay in premiership for them.
They cant compete with top clubs, they spent 30 million in 5 years , West brom could spend that and still be relegated, Celtic atm have good 1st Division players but not many good enough to play week in week out in the premier league.
And with Celtic being Scottish money stays firmly in the pocket, i mean they only get 65,000 a home game and sell 1 million + jerseys and buy hmm actually get free agents and loan players. Any Celtic fan who thinks a club like that would survive in the PL is a fool.
They would last a season, if they had to play tru the leagues it would be years before they got out of the 1st divison. O Neill has to leave cant belive he is still there tbh.

kdjac

eirebhoy

KdjaC wrote:

This will never happen or if it does ,it very s hort stay in premiership for them.
They cant compete with top clubs, they spent 30 million in 5 years , West brom could spend that and still be relegated, Celtic atm have good 1st Division players but not many good enough to play week in week out in the premier league.
And with Celtic being Scottish money stays firmly in the pocket, i mean they only get 65,000 a home game and sell 1 million + jerseys and buy hmm actually get free agents and loan players. Any Celtic fan who thinks a club like that would survive in the PL is a fool.

Eh, the reason they're loaning players and getting free transfers is because they have no money. If they move to the premiership they get over £12m on TV revenue alone compared to about £1m in Scotland. If they were move to the prem they would be competing with the top teams on the cash front as they're small amount of debt would be wiped out immediately and they'd have the 2nd biggest stadium, one of the biggest fan bases, etc.

C'mon KdjaC, stop with all this anti-Celtic bias. They would absolutely destroy division 1. They have a lot more than good division 1 players. Marshall is probably the best U-20 goalkeeper in Britain and has already proved himself at the top level. Agathe is a superb right back and has made that spot his own ahead of McNamara who is forced to play on the left. Balde has got a bit of interest from premiership clubs and a 4/5mil Newcastle bid was turned down last month.

Thompson is proven in the premiership with Bolton. (I didn't do this research BTW) In the 97/98 season, Thompson got 9 goals and 9 assists in the premiership for Bolton. Therefore, he actually played a part (either scored or assisted) in 44% of Bolton's league goals that season and only played 33 matches. Bolton also got relegated that season.

Lennon is one of the best holders around. Juninho is proven in the prem. Petrov is the captain of Bulgaria at 25 and has had some interest from Inter and Barca. Hartson (who's still only 29) was 2nd top premiership scorer in all comps in 97/98 while Sutton was the league's joint top scorer in the same season.

10 (6 of which are currently international first teamers and then there's Lennon who was forced out) of the first team players are internationals while, off the top of my head, there's at least 7 players that can't even make the first team who have international caps.

If Celtic were to move to the prem there would be around £20m available to spend immediately with more every summer.

TwoShedsJackson

Eirebhoy, I'm frankly shocked you got through eulogy no. 737357427427 to Celtic without mentioning Balde once, are you slipping??

(edit) I guess it's me that's slipping as he is indeed in there. Who are these 7 internationally capped players who can't make the Celtcic team? (/edit)

KdjaCL

Eirebhoy there is no way the board there would allow 20 million in one season, as you said biggest fan bases. Them along with Man utd were among the 1st capitalise on merchandising. They are not poor and as the top earning list of clubs show they well up the top. They sell near 1 million jerseys in ireland alone. In the US they have massive support.

And the players they have all came from 1st division clubs , they have an excellent manager and thats about it football wise and as i was reading the thread (3-4 years in PL )most of the players you mentioned bar Marshall be pensionable by then. I do not like Celtic but likes football and have watched many a team go up and down the top Div 1/ Bottom PL with far better players and more money to spend than Celtic.
Financially they would not survive , the reason they doing so well (in a football sense are they really?) is because O Neill is a class act. Realisticaly football wise their players would not be good enough for the premier league as if they were they would be there now.

Kdjac

eirebhoy

KdjaC wrote:

Eirebhoy there is no way the board there would allow 20 million in one season

When MON arrived 4 years ago he was given £20m to spend at once so if we were to move to the premiership I have no doubt that the manager would get around the same amount.

Of course Quinn would be spending a load of money if we were in the premiership, he's still trying to sort the debt out as it is.

Realisticaly football wise their players would not be good enough for the premier league as if they were they would be there now.

C'mon, I think you have to admit thats nonsense.

TwoSheds, the internationals not in the first team: Douglas, Hedman, Valgaeran, Camara, Pearson, McGeady, Lambert.

KdjaCL

The "unofficial" entrance fee to the premiership and staying in it is 20 Million, then a further 10 to 15 to ensure survival. To Challenge for Europe well thats what most Celtic fans would expect (very high expectations tbh) is a wee 60 odd Million.

Now im sure mr Quinn has done his maths and noticed that what he gains by being in the PL he loses from not being in the CL. The teams who have survived in PL in recent season all spent big to achieve that, the teams that didnt survive may have spent big but badly.

They should be in a stronger position moneywise why they are not with that fantastic stadium and humongus fan base is beyond me.

And if their players were good enough they would be there, dont kid yourself the top 12 teams in PL can afford any player in Scotland and the lure of PL and more wages would soon have them there, the days of a club saying " hes not for sale" are well over Rooney Drogba Ronadinho all proved that, and if Celtic had a player any team in top 12 wanted and they would be there. Scottish leagues best player in last 5 years imo Barry Ferguson went to Blackburn! That says it all really.


kdjac

eirebhoy

As I said, Celtic have already rejected a bid for Balde and rejected bids for Larsson during his time at Celtic, one from Monaco comes to mind. Camara rejected a Bolton bid because he wanted to go to Celtic. Juninho could have stayed in the premiership if he wished as he has interest from a few clubs. There was a good few premiership clubs interested in Sutton before his move to Celtic. Spurs and a few others had a bid for Hartson rejected. I think Lazio were interested in Agathe a couple of years ago.

What makes you think that just because a player is good enough for the premiership that someone will bid for him? There's thousands of players out there, Scotland isn't the only market.

KdjaCL

I applaud your dedication to the cause, from readin both threads you defending your team well (shels fans take note) but imo doubt thewy would survive and as the THREAD bloody said 3-4 years these guys be in old folks homes by then

kdjac

eirebhoy

I have a slight feeling that there'll be alot of money available for MON to splash out this summer (and possibly a bit this January). in the summers of 2000 and 2001 MON was given over £27m to spend. Since then (3 summer windows) he has spent less than £5m on 6 players. Since O'Neill took over Celtic have gotten just over £10m from players out. Add the fact that he has reduced the wage bill a lot by releasing players like Johnson, Rieper, Stubbs, Wieghorst, Moravcik, Kharin, Rafael, Gould, Boyd, Guppy, Larsson, Mjallby all on free transfers. Then you have other younger lads like Miller, Doyle, Healy, Smith, Crainey and Goodwin. The sales of Viduka, Riseth, Burchill, Berkovik, Tebily would also have got a big chunk of wages off the bill. Even with the signings, the wage bill is definitely reduced by millions annually and there's still the likes of Lambert, Hedman, Petta and Fernandez to be released in the summer.

I'll eat my hat if there isn't well over £10m to spend in the summer.

The Rooster

I wonder what Desmond's motive is by pouting such rubbish "Celtic and Rangers will be in the Premier League in 3/4 years".

Is he totally ignorant of reality or does he think if he tries to generate debate it might happen.

One thing for sure is that he's only in it for the money. and the only way he'll make money is to get Celtic into the Premiership.

I'd love to see it, but can see no logisitcal way of it happening - although I hadnt heard the conference idea before (There is no chance of parachuting into Prem or Div1). Might be a good idea to field two teams, one in Scotland and one in England - although obviously that would create its own problems, but the biggest step is the first step.

eirebhoy

It would cost way too much to get a team from the conference to the premiership in a short amount of time.

Dub13

What happened to the idea of them going into the English League Cup last year or the year before...?I think this may be the way forward as they would not take up a European spot ant it will get them a foot in the door.

eirebhoy

Dub13 wrote:

What happened to the idea of them going into the English League Cup last year or the year before...?I think this may be the way forward as they would not take up a European spot ant it will get them a foot in the door.

The winner of the league cup gets a UEFA cup place so they would be taking up a spot.

Raskolnikov

KdjaC wrote:

I do not like Celtic but likes football and have watched many a team go up and down the top Div 1/ Bottom PL with far better players and more money to spend than Celtic.
Kdjac

Oh come on, you're not seriously equating Celtic to a side below of Wolves, West Brom or Norwich are you? It was just over a year ago that Celtic were in the finals of the UEFA Cup. Admittedly, getting to those finals was a great achievement for Celtic, I still think that they'd rank as a mid-table Premier League side, with the added revenue that the Premiership would bring, they could rise even higher.

If Celtic want to improve as a football team (and a company) then the Premiership is the only way to go.

KdjaCL

Raskolnikov wrote:

Oh come on, you're not seriously equating Celtic to a side below of Wolves, West Brom or Norwich are you? It was just over a year ago that Celtic were in the finals of the UEFA Cup. Admittedly, getting to those finals was a great achievement for Celtic, I still think that they'd rank as a mid-table Premier League side, with the added revenue that the Premiership would bring, they could rise even higher.

If Celtic want to improve as a football team (and a company) then the Premiership is the only way to go.

Millwall are in Europe.

About Desmond it makes no sense to do somfin like this , assuming they got in they would lose the CL money instantly and even if they were an mid table prem team like Charlton, Birmingham they wouldnt be better off. It would be a very dangerous business risk. CL money is near gauranteed atm for them PL money wouldnt replace it.

kdjac

eirebhoy

KdjaC wrote:

Millwall are in Europe.

And they failed to beat a team that Celtic would demolish.

KdjaCL

eirebhoy wrote:

And they failed to beat a team that Celtic would demolish.

yeah yeah ,bet you thought they would beat Barca

kdjac

Dub13

eirebhoy wrote:

The winner of the league cup gets a UEFA cup place so they would be taking up a spot.

No they would not....I think its a far bet to assume Celtic and Rangers will take up the First and Second spot in the Scottish League for the next 10 years or so,Scotland gets two Champions League places....so if the old firm have the two Scottish spots they will not need to take the English League Cup Uefa spot.

Raskolnikov

KdjaC wrote:

Millwall are in Europe.

Yes but I'll wait until they get to the UEFA Cup final before I eat my words.

KdjaC wrote:

About Desmond it makes no sense to do somfin like this , assuming they got in they would lose the CL money instantly and even if they were an mid table prem team like Charlton, Birmingham they wouldnt be better off. It would be a very dangerous business risk. CL money is near gauranteed atm for them PL money wouldnt replace it.

kdjac

True, it's a massive gamble, but the potential reward of such a venture would be great, the Premier League money, an improved squad which would thus give them a chance at greater progression (and more money) in the Champions League.

The alternative is remain in stagnation in the Scottish league, never being likely to challenge the European giants.

KdjaCL

Raskolnikov wrote:

The alternative is remain in stagnation in the Scottish league, never being likely to challenge the European giants.

Like Porto stagnate in their league? they pulled it off spent less than Celtic and in an even ****tier league.

kdjac

Big Ears

'and in an even ****tier league.'


Maritmo 1-0 Rangers , and Maritimo are not among the top 3 Portugeuse sides .

PHB

Also even if Celtic were able to hack it in the premiership, they just aren't as good as the rest of the top 6

I dont think you consider them being better than

Man Utd
Arsenal
Liverpool
Chelsea
Newcastle
Middlesborough

Not to forget
Bolton
Blackburn(Hughesy is the bomb )
Charlton
Aston Villa
Everton

all of whom would easily give Celtic a really tough game

They will finish in a mid table position, maybe not even get a europe position.
They would have to spend up to 40-60 million to get a decent squad together, and the only way they would do that is if they convincced Martin O'Neill to stay, and investeed in 20 under 21's


The premiership is too big already, it needs to be cut to 18/16 teams imo

Where are Celtic and Rangers gona come in?
Gona get a place in the play offs or something?
What if rangers get in and Celtic don't, and Celtic are stuck in division one?
They gona pull out and go back to Scotland?

Big risk for celtic and rangers, but hey, maybe they'll become a decent club out of it

smemon

rangers aren't good enough for the premierleague at the minute, they'd be relegated at this moment and time if they were there.

scotland is a 1 horse league now, people dont seem to know that. once rangers sold amoruso and ferguson that was them finished. rangers will be lucky to finish 2nd this year.

Dub13

I agree with PHB....they are just not up to it right now will they ever be...? I dont know, is it worth the risk...?I dont think so.

And before people start saying Celtic beat Liverpool,Blackburn etc I think Celtic have (or maybe had going by last week aganst Barca) the ability to raise there game to beat the so called "bigger clubs" from the EPL the odd time but I dont think they would cut it week in week out,not right now.

eirebhoy

Dub13 wrote:

No they would not....I think its a far bet to assume Celtic and Rangers will take up the First and Second spot in the Scottish League for the next 10 years or so,Scotland gets two Champions League places....so if the old firm have the two Scottish spots they will not need to take the English League Cup Uefa spot.

If a team that already has a European place wins the league cup the place goes to the 6th place premiership team. If Celtic or Rangers were to enter it and win they are blocking others from getting a place.

MON said in today's papers that he can't see it happening (the Old Firm in the Prem) in the forseable future. He also said would around £2.2m per premiership club be enough of an incentive for clubs to invite them. How does he have such an accurate figure and where would the £40m+ come from.

BTW Kjdak, the way he was talking, Celtic would certainly earn a lot more by playing in the Prem.

PHB, if it was to happen the first team is strong enough in most places (with 6 of today's team with at least a season in the Prem as one of their clubs best players and 10 with international experience) and there'd be ~£20m available to strenghten.

Dub13

eirebhoy wrote:

If a team that already has a European place wins the league cup the place goes to the 6th place premiership team. If Celtic or Rangers were to enter it and win they are blocking others from getting a place.

That did not happen with Millwall in the FA cup last season.

eirebhoy

Dub13 wrote:

That did not happen with Millwall in the FA cup last season.

The FA cup is different.