Bolton v Liverpool (May contain scores)

Thanx 4 The Fish

Bolton unchanged, Rafa rings in the changes.

Pool playing a five man Midfield, Warnock on the left after Kewells injury and a debut for Alonso and Garcia and Cisse dropped. Cisse was involved in a car crash on Wednesday which is apparently why he is out.

Hyypia nearly had his head taken off after the first challenge with Davies who "accidentally" caught him with an elbow.

mike65

Must check that Cisse crash, apparently he hit a parked police car which was attending a crash! :eek: Still he's not used to driving on the left.

edit the crash happened between cars on the move :eek: :eek:

Mike.

mike65

Hyppia off and Traore on!

Mike.

Thanx 4 The Fish

1-0 Davies, great run and cross from Pederson, but Dudek a little at fault

Pacifico

Hopefully it'll liven up a bit now...

mayordenis

yeah hopefully it will id say we'll see cisse on shortly, where is kewell?

Thanx 4 The Fish

Kewell is out injured.

Pacifico

Xabi Alonso has been impressive....

Jivin Turkey

Axel wrote:

Xabi Alonso has been impressive....

Yeah from the glimpses he has shown you can see the class. Im not overly impressed with Garcia however.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Funny, I was thinking the opposite, I know that he will have to have time to get used to the premiership and all that but he has not been great, he has put in a couple of balls that have been ok, but that is what you would expect really of a top flight player. Gerrerd hasn't been great so far either, hopefully Rafa will give them all a good kicking at half time.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Good one there from McAllister talking about Cisse, I think he will be on staright away or maybe immediately.

Jivin Turkey

Cisse on.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Cisses is on for Warnock, Garcia has gone out left and Gerrard on the right, Alonso in the middle with Hamann.

mike65

I'm relying on radio commentary but Liverpool sound like a team of ppl who are barely on nodding terms with one another. I see much hard work ahead.

Mike.

smuckers

Liverpool just scored but offside given.

smuckers

Full Time.

Jivin Turkey

That wasnt pretty. Very little communication between the team. I know they have only had a couple of games but Im not sure if the Baros/Cisse combination will work too well, they are both very individual, and rarely seem to want to pass. Gerrard did not look one bit pleased playing wide, and gave up running.

impr0v

Benitez made bad use of Gerrard all through the match. Garcia looked good for me, I thought Andy Gray had a good point about Alonso looking for the killer pass every time. Unlucky with the offside, but Bolton deserved the points imo.

Pepe LeFrits

Garcia looked good, Alonso not so much so. Deserved result for Bolton. London's stranglehold on the top 3 is broken

jesus_thats_gre

Pretty much an appalling performance by the pool.. Alonso seems to have caught Stevie G's need to ping the ball 50 yards everytime he gets the ball.. I thought Garcia done well, he took the disallowed goal well and got in plenty of good positions.. Baros seemed out of sorts and a bit too selfish..

2 new players and a new system all in one game, I dont think it was ever gonna be a good result.

The Liverpool should have stood but if they got the draw it would have been too easy and undeserved overall.

Ronan|Raven

Goal was not offside. Had it recored watched it a while ago, terrible decision imho. Lots of work to do, the season is shaping out already as I thought for liverpool. One cant expect (unlike a lot for some reason) instant miracles overnight.

mr_angry

I thought Liverpool were very poor today. As Andy Gray was pointing out, they were looking for the killer pass the whole time. Some of it was shockingly bad, especially from Gerrard - had one of his worst games for a long time, although I know he was being played out of position.

Liverpool looked very much like a team playing a system they'd never played before. I think 4-5-1 might suit them in the end, but they need a lot more practise at it. The central 3 were awful at times. Most of the posession was back in their own half, and they really didn't press Bolton at all.

I was also disappointed with Bolton. Once they scored, they showed very little desire to come out of their shell, even as the home team. It got them the points, but it wasn't pretty. Lots of work ahead for Liverpool.

mike65

Just watched the Match of the day coverage and the goal was perfectly taken by Garcia. Me grumbles but a draw might have put to good a gloss on the performance I guess.

Mike.

StickyMcGinty

why is benitez not using his best player in his best position? surely stevie G should be centre mid, beside alonso, and hamman shold be holdin dudeks hand on the bench, whom i've not been impressed with this season AT ALL.

the minimum liverpool shold get for these types of games is a draw. (united v blackburn ?)

redspider

A disasterous result and a bad week for Liverpool. Benitez has challenges ahead of him.

A very strange Liverpool formation. 4-5-1 is not the right set-up for a team that should be securing a top-4 position. How many times does it take to sink in that Gerrard is a much better player in the middle, in the advanced position with Hamman as the holding player. The question is where does Benitez play Garcia and Alonso as they also play in the middle of the park?

Garcia looked the more useful of the two and was unlucky that he was too quick for that goal. It was clearly onside. However, he wasnt great in keeping control and it remains to be seen if he can adjust to the premeirship. Alonso had good spells as well, some reasonable passing, but overall, neither of these players seem to be better than Gerrard, Kewell or Hamann. With that said it confirms what I had suspected, that the summer signings have not really added to the Liverpool first eleven and so Liverpool are likely to struggle to get 4th again.

Kewell was missed, as was Hyppia who went off at the start. Traore seems way out of his league and perhaps the dbate on his departure may have affected him. In terms of the Bolton goal, I would estimate the blame as something like 20% Josemi (he let Pedersen get the better of him), 10% Carragher, 40% Dudek and 30% Riise. I didnt assign anything to Traore who seemed to be a spectator although probably by accident was picking up a player.

Baros got little support in the 1st half and so had few chances as had Liverpool in the whole match. When Cisse came on, himself and Baros once again failed to impress as a striking partnership. with any communication. The Liverpool attack wasn't working well together, exemplified by an Alonso shot that went wide fom an acute angle which should have been passed across to an umarked Baros. Baros didnt play great overall and seemed slightly out of sorts on the day but got poor service. Baros needs a good team to shine, and needs Stevie G playing in his best position.

In terms of the Finnan debate, he wasnt even on the bench and with so many midfielders it would be crazy for Benitez to play him in the midfield now. That only leaves the right back position. I think he is better or equal to Josemi. But as that is also the best position for Carragher, Liverpool are if anything overloaded at right back position. Finnan may only feature in the team of 16 if Josemi gets injured.

Liverpool are short in the middle of defence and Hyppia was a big loss to them today. Whats the story with Henchoz? It looks like that partnership is never going to reform. Benitex didnt put on Diao in the middle, where I thought he played very well last time, although I realise its a natural position for Traore.

Liverpool's first loss, and I think there is more to come if they are picked like that .....

jesus_thats_gre

I am not sure what to make of the game today. I forgot to mention that I was very impressed with Warnock.. I have two theories about todays tactics, bit far fetched but I have been thinking about it too much.

I think he may have just played 4-5-1 purely so he could introduce both Garcia and Alonso while also maintaining the stabilising influence of Hamann and Gerard. Its crazy I know but I am not sure what to think..

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Dudek

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Josemi

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Hypia

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Carragher

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Risse

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Hamann

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Gerard

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Alonso

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Garcia

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Warnock

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Baros

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I personally think that while he did play the above while at Valencia, he will revert to 4-4-2 once Garcia and Alonso in particular settle into the pace of the premiership. Once this happens, I think Hamann will be dropped back to the bench woth Alonso playing the holding role as below..

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Dudek

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Josemi

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Hypia

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Carragher

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Risse

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Alonso

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Garcia

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Gerard

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Kewell

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Cisse

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Baros

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All the interviews I have seen with Alonso feature him talking about the partnerships he will form with Stevie Gerard as if Benitez discussed his plans during the signing on process..

Caesar_Bojangle

Bolton thoroughly deserved the points but theres no way Garcia's goal was offside. I'm starting to miss Michael Owen and its not even september.

redspider

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I am not sure what to make of the game today. I forgot to mention that I was very impressed with Warnock. I have two theories about todays tactics, bit far fetched but I have been thinking about it too much.

I think he may have just played 4-5-1 purely so he could introduce both Garcia and Alonso while also maintaining the stabilising influence of Hamann and Gerard. Its crazy I know but I am not sure what to think.

Its all very well doing that type of thing in a friendly but in a match where Liverpool are aiming to get 3 points, its not a wise decision by Benitez in my opinion. I dont think your theory is too far fetched, but I think its fanciful to some extent if Benitez thinks that these two players will just slot in and take the premiership by storm. If they were that good, they would have been doing it where they were before.

I'm not sure who is better yet, Alonso or Hamann. I agree that Hamann will be moved to a sub role at some point, but have we reached that point yet? It might be next season. Both Gerrard and Liverpool know what to expect with Hamann. Not always pretty but sticking a leg in here and there, disrupting the play and making simple passes. An ideal partner for Gerrard.

Garcia seems to be the more creative option. The catch to me is that he likes playing in the middle and not wide. A creative midfield player, so in a way clashes with Gerard's role. Likewise, Alonso looks to be a central midfielder. So, it looks like Liverpool have 4 central midfielders now. That would be fine in a squad like Chelski, but where is the natural left midfield player apart from Kewell and who goes on the right.

I guess tactically, it looks like Benitez is going to play a tighter formation with only one midfielder (Kewell) playing a wide role. So it does look like he's going for a Garcia-Alonso-Gerrard-Kewell formation, but I'm not sure how good Alonso is at playing the holding role, and isnt slightly Garcia better on the left?

Its still all mixed up and what with Baros and Cisse not combining well so far its troubled times. Liverpool seem to have difficulties in each sector of the pitch.

As for Warnock he played ok, but lets be honest here - is he better than say a Danny Murphy? I think the answer to that is no, although a demotivated Danny Murphy and one lacking in confidence (which I think Danny is now having) is not good enough for a starting Liverpool eleven.

The Rooster

I think Benitez has to be given some time to find the best system to suit the players available.

Liverpool werent great but, unlike what others have said above, they thoroughly deserved the point they were robbed of. Super finish by Luis Garcia. Poor decision by the linesman. And with about 10 minutes to go, as well as knocking Bolton's confidence, there's every chance the goal would have given Liverpool the confidence to go on and get the winner.

Overall Liverpool owned the ball for long periods, played nice football but didnt create nearly enough chances and conceded a goal by virtue of a goalkeeping mistake (if you come for a ball you MUST get it). Sounds very familiar! But we'll see if Rafa can change things.

Jivin Turkey

redspider wrote:

A very strange Liverpool formation. 4-5-1 is not the right set-up for a team that should be securing a top-4 position

Are you saying a team that plays a 4-5-1 cannot finish in the top 4?

redspider wrote:

With that said it confirms what I had suspected, that the summer signings have not really added to the Liverpool first eleven and so Liverpool are likely to struggle to get 4th again.

It confirms what exactly? Liverpool have signed 4 players so far. 2 of them have played a total of 90 minutes each and one hasnt even played a game yet. From this you can CONFIRM that these players have not added anything to Liverpools first XI? Granted Alonso and Garcia did not take the place by storm yesterday, but Im sure they will both turn out to be decent signings, in particular Alonso.

redspider wrote:

Kewell was missed

You dont watch much of Liverpool do you?

The Rooster

I'm not writing Harry off, but he has been disappointing this season and was similar for the last 10 or so games last season.

Luis Garcia actually reminded of Kewell quite a bit. And LG did more yesterday than Kewell has done in any game in a while. If his goal had counted, I'd say he would have won the man of the match award.

Considering it was their first game, both Alonso and Luis Garcia did reasonably well. Certainly as good as anyone else in the team yesterday. I'd be confident that they will improve the team within a short period of time.

And a 4-5-1 formation isnt necessarily a negative formation. It can turn into 4-3-3 very quickly. In the first half Luis Garcia was in the box as often as a striker would have been and Warnock was bombing down the left as often as he could - the Bolton full back (Hunt) couldnt handle him at all. Alonso and Gerrard were both often in and around the box also.

The weakness in the formation was that it didnt suit Baros. And the final ball was poor, a lot of that to do with the unfamiliarity the team had with Luis Garcia and Alonso and the runs they make (and vice versa).

Pessisim: Same oul sheight as last year
Optimism: Big potential in this group of players to improve and Benitez to implement a playing system that works.

redspider

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Are you saying a team that plays a 4-5-1 cannot finish in the top 4?

It confirms what exactly? Liverpool have signed 4 players so far. 2 of them have played a total of 90 minutes each and one hasnt even played a game yet. From this you can CONFIRM that these players have not added anything to Liverpools first XI? Granted Alonso and Garcia did not take the place by storm yesterday, but Im sure they will both turn out to be decent signings, in particular Alonso.

Football, like most sports is analogue, not digital. So, not all 4-5-1's mean the exact same thing as it very much depends what the 5 are doing, where they play, what type of players they are, etc. Football formations are not static but are fluid depending on where the ball is, what has happened, etc.

The type of 4-5-1 formation that Benitez started with yesterday was not very ambitious for a game against Bolton, not withstanding that they are now 3rd. Look at the result of the selected formation - seemingly there was only ONE Liverpool attempt that made the target with 6 wides, compared with Bolton's 5 on target and 4 wides. Liverpool's formation did NOT create scoring chances. Any team that wants to get in top 4 has to be creative, perhaps not in all matches, but in this type of one so early in the season, I think that was the worng way to play. I also think that Benitez admitted it with his substitution and bringing on the "injured" Cisse to change to a different formation.

The loss confirms "my suspiscions" that Liverpool are not going to improve much on last year. You can only confim things in football with actual results. We will have to wait and see if there is any improvement.

I thought that Benitez had brought in Josemi, who has played in all the games and not any better than Finnan.

In terms of Kewell, he would be better if he is given the freedom to play wide left, but he cannot be relied on defensive duties, and he would be much better if there was a better left back than Riise who could link up with him and control the ball and his passes. I totally agree that last season he went missing in action in many games. This is a new start, and from what I've seen of him so far in the Man C and other games, he played better than Alonso and Garcia did yesterday (they play different positions/roles).

We could re-visit this topic in 5 games time and see what the results are.