Education in the country

teaser

I was reading the Irish times and saw an article on the leaving certificate,
did you know that over 75% of leaving cert students avail of extra tuition, with Irish being one of the most popular subjects needing tuition,
that just shocked me, since Irish is our first official language!!!

either the constitution changes, or politicians start working.

I think its the way the language is taught, when I was in school, you were expected to already know it! And it wasnt even taught like any other European language such as French or Spanish!

Tuars

teaser wrote:

I think its the way the language is taught...

It's partly due to the way it's taught but even more due to the fact that there is no place to use it once you leave school.

The state has been a major offender in this regard. Try doing any official business with the state in Irish and see how far you get. Since independence the state has given the department of education sole responsibility for reviving the language. Other departments have washed their hands of it. Before independence the civil service used English and no effort was made to force them to use Irish after independence.

Beyond the token cúpla focal the state has done little to revive the language. There was a robust revival at the start of the 20th century but independence seemed to kill it off. A liitle ironic, dontcha think?

Flukey

Our main problem is the lack of situations and locations where it can be used. the Gaeltacht just isn't sufficient. Then again, we owe much of our success internationally as emigrants and as a place to do business to the fact that we speak English. It would be a different country had Irish survived as the real first language of everyday speech. We would not have the amount of investment, particularly from America, than we do but for the fact that we speak English.

DadaKopf

Best way to encourage kids to learn Irish: when you're on holidays you can talk about people behind their backs and they won't understand you!

Wish I'd thought of that. All I ever manage is something like "Tá on bean ansin go han... fat."

Tuars

Flukey wrote:

Then again, we owe much of our success internationally as emigrants and as a place to do business to the fact that we speak English. It would be a different country had Irish survived as the real first language of everyday speech. We would not have the amount of investment, particularly from America, than we do but for the fact that we speak English.

But it shouldn't be an either/or situation. Many nations are comfortably bilingual, scandinavians for example. The Finns revived their language from near extinction.

To be honest I don't think we valued our language enough to revive it. And I believe we are the worst for it in terms of our national identity.

ionapaul

How can the government or language groups effectively encourage the better/wider usage of Irish? I think if the effort/expense that is used to translate each official document into Irish went into other measures (that I admit I have no ideas for) something could be done. Does anyone really request any of the official documents in Irish - on the latest agriculture act, etc etc...?

My friends and I only use Irish abroad, like DadaKopf, to talk about people behind their backs! And although most of us (having gone to all-Irish primary or secondary schools in Galway) got honour grades in higher Irish in the leaving, 10 years down the road my Irish is not much better than my awful French...:(

Flukey

It is handy having it abroad, if you have people with enough Irish to converse in it. People in Ireland and Britain always find it harder to learn other languages, possibly because of our island statuses. We both expect people to speak English to us, when we are at home or abroad. Mainland Europeans find it easier to learn alternative languages and the language schools here do very well out of it. They are of course learning an internationally used language, which Irish isn't, which is another problem for us.

Stabshauptmann

There are plenty of ways to use it but little need to use it. The fact that so many seek tuition is an encouraging sign that ppl arent giving up on it.

AngelofFire

They way in which our native tounge is taught is flawed, 5 year old children are expected to learn irish by reading lines like "Chuaigh Sean go dti an siopa", from text books.Very little emphasis is put on developing conversational,translation,Syntax or grammatical skills.It should be taught in our primary schools in a similar way that european languages like French and German our taught in our secondary schools. Is it a wonder that by 6th year many irish students know more French than Irish.

Flukey

Only those that get a chance to use it outside school can ever get a good grip on it. It is like any subject, whether it be a language or some other discipline. Being able to use and practice a skill is the thing that makes the difference. People don't want the language to die, but at the same time there is not much chance of using it. The Civil Service do their week down in the Gaeltacht each year, as kids do and there are otehr intitiatives to keep it alive to. It will always be kept alive to some extent, even if the speakers are dwindling. It is around us in a whole range of ways, like our placenames, so it will never totally die. It is just a case of how much life we can keep in it. I'd like to keep it alive, but I am far from fluent and don't have the opportunity to use it, and that would be the case for most people. Putting it on signs and on documents and such like is all very well, but the most important thing that can be done with a language and the think that keeps it alive, is speaking it. Unless we do that it will not get any better. Unfortunately it is not really of much use to us. English, as I said earlier, has more practical value to us, however much we want to save our own language. It is just a job of keeping it alive as much as we can, but that is all we can hope for.

Syth

Necromancer wrote:

The fact that so many seek tuition is an encouraging sign that ppl arent giving up on it.

I think the only reason people are going to so much grinds is because (a) They're not good at it (due to the way it's thaught) and (b) You have to do it. You can't not do Irish. Loads of college won't look at you if you don't pass irish. Crazy.

There are lots of ways of encouraging Irish though. The internet is a great on for it. There's an Wikipedia in Irish! http://ga.wikipedia.org In case you don't know what wikipedia is, it's a free online encyclopedia, but unique as in it's a wiki, ie the public can change the encyclopedia and that change will be displayed to the world instantly. Anyone with a semi-decent grasp of Irish should check it out and contribute. Just click on 'edit this page' (or whatever that is in irish), and update the page. Or add new articles. you don't need to register or pay or anything. How many other Irish encyclopedias are there? (BTW the english one is here: http://en.wikipedia.org)

Raskolnikov

teaser wrote:

I was reading the Irish times and saw an article on the leaving certificate,
did you know that over 75% of leaving cert students avail of extra tuition, with Irish being one of the most popular subjects needing tuition,
that just shocked me, since Irish is our first official language!!!

either the constitution changes, or politicians start working.

I think its the way the language is taught, when I was in school, you were expected to already know it! And it wasnt even taught like any other European language such as French or Spanish!

The reason why so many people are using tutors, grinds classes and all that sort of thing is solely down to the points system. If you're trying 525 points to do Law in UCD and going to a grinds class will help you get those points, then of course, you're going to shell out the extra yo-yo's. The €200-€400 that you're spending might be a paltry sum when considering that your future prospects and happiness could be at stake.

As for Irish needing an overhaul in how it's taught? Absolutely, I doubt that the stooges in the Dept. of Education have the balls to bring it about though. Education in Irish in it's present state is almost worthless unfortunately, it really doesn't say much that I learned more Irish in the Gaeltacht last Summer than I did after twelve years education in Ireland's schools.

Kudos on the Gaelige Wikipedia link, some of those words hurt my eyes though

That was a

Tom Dunne

Raskolnikov wrote:

The reason why so many people are using tutors, grinds classes and all that sort of thing is solely down to the points system

Agreed, it's not for the love of the language that people are getting grinds in Irish.

As for Irish needing an overhaul in how it's taught? Absolutely, I doubt that the stooges in the Dept. of Education have the balls to bring it about though. Education in Irish in it's present state is almost worthless unfortunately, it really doesn't say much that I learned more Irish in the Gaeltacht last Summer than I did after twelve years education in Ireland's schools.

This is where I think the major problem is. Think back to your Irish teachers in school. How many of them were, er, sane? I remember being taught Irish by staunchly republican, anti-British wackos who seemed to believe there is nothing outside any of the Gaeltachts (and that's from Donegal, down to Dingle). One nutcase teacher from Kerry wore black robes, like a witch, another was a Michael D. Higgins imitator, who was completely eccentric and out of touch with reality. They rammed Irish down our throats with a force certain to ensure students would never, ever, consider the language in any way remotely useful.

I remember having this discussion with a group of non-nationals and they remarked how much of a shame it was, and I agree completely. As Raskolnikov says, overhaul how it is taught, make it fun, interesting and relevant, and stop blaming Cromwell for the decline of the language.

Imposter

I think there are two issues at play here. One is how the language is taught. The other is why the language is taught.

I'm living in Austria for the last 2+ years and I still find it amazing the standard of english that people have here. The reason there english is so good is that they are taught it by speaking it. In the school system in Ireland I think there is far too much emphasis on book learning and probably more emphasis on grammer than is neccessary in order to learn a language. As a persons ability with a language improves so does the grammer. An overhaul of how Irish and other languages are taught is needed to change this.

The reason why Irish is taught is also important bacause although it is part of our culture and history, why is it important that we are forced to learn it? If people were allowed to choose whether to learn Irish or not it might actually be better for the language. People who actually wanted to learn it could do so and not have to contend with those who were being forced to learn it and possibly disrupting and generally holding the class back because they had no interest in it.

Another aspect of this is that languages evolve and die. If Irish is a dieing language then why the government force people to learn it in order to keep it alive? Imo let the language go it's own way and either continue to exist or die.

Usage is the Key here. Theres absolutely no need to learn it apart from passing your leaving cert. Sure you need a slight grasp to get into a government job, but are there regular checks to see if th Gov Employee has retained the language? Nope. I learnt Irish as my first language, then I learnt English when I was just 8. Nowadays, I can hardly speak more than two words of Irish. Theres just no need.

Another aspect is the dialect of Irish. In schools you're taught the dialect of your teacher. So someone learning in Galway will have a very different Irish than someone from Cork, or the North. Alot of people get confused by this, and it kills the interest they have. There is no central type of Irish that remains the same despite location.

For me, I can speak Irish, if I'm surrounded by it for abt 3 hrs. Funerals are always interesting since all my family on my Dad's side are irish speakers, with a mix of English wording. But can I read/Write it? Nope. Not a chance.

Growing up, I always loved speaking Irish. Its a beautiful language. But without any need to retain it, I lost it. And I daresay its the same for most people. I had a reason to learn it and keep it during school, but other people didn't have my reasons, and from what I remember it was hell for them. (Its 10 years since my leaving cert)

Stabshauptmann

AngelofFire wrote:

They way in which our native tounge is taught is flawed, 5 year old children are expected to learn irish by reading lines like "Chuaigh Sean go dti an siopa", from text books.Very little emphasis is put on developing conversational,translation,Syntax or grammatical skills.It should be taught in our primary schools in a similar way that european languages like French and German our taught in our secondary schools. Is it a wonder that by 6th year many irish students know more French than Irish.

Thats a shock to me. What on earth are you basing this on? i did honours french and irish and I assure you a much higher standard of irish is looked for than the standard of french for the same grade.

simu

Necromancer wrote:

Thats a shock to me. What on earth are you basing this on? i did honours french and irish and I assure you a much higher standard of irish is looked for than the standard of french for the same grade.

So true - I speak both languages fluently (not thanks to the LC courses, though) and the typical LC student's command of French is very poor indeed.

To take a different angle on this whole topic, might this increased demand for grinds not reflect the commercially-geared mindset that has become prevalent in this country in recent years. Everything, learning included, is seen as a commodity that can be bought and sold and so people assume that paying for grinds must be better than sitting down at home in front of a book for a few hours. By handing over money, you're making a sort of declaration and you're confirming that "learning" is happening, you can feel secure in marking out the hours you have spent at grinds as having been spent at "learning" and you can compare your quantity of "learning" with other people.

chewy

well that may be true simu.. but you don't think of going to grinds for those reasons...

well maybe timed spent ( rather then money/time spent)

i think i went to french and maths grinds just cos i wasn't very good at em
i had a great maths teacher (he was a prick though) poor fench teacher...

i think i went cos thats what ya do when your not so good at a subject and your desperate to find any more good notes or hints and tips...

i never did grinds with a single person if ya knw what i mean went to leeson str, anyone recommend going to say a recent school leaver over lesson street?

leeroybrown

I have to agree that the secret to learning any language is speaking it. The standard of Irish teachers (actually language teachers full stop) in my secondary school was dreadful. My Irish teacher (LC Honours) would have struggled to converse with the class if she tried and she couldn't even teach the rest well to make up for it. All through school I despised Irish. A dead language poorly taught from books by bad teachers. Boring, unnecessary and demotivating.

To be honest I think that languages in general (with the exception of English) are taught poorly to a very poor standard in this country's education system.

simu

chewy wrote:

i think i went to french and maths grinds just cos i wasn't very good at em
i had a great maths teacher (he was a prick though) poor fench teacher...

i think i went cos thats what ya do when your not so good at a subject and your desperate to find any more good notes or hints and tips...

OK, fair enough but i think you also get a lot of people getting grinds for subjects they're good at because they hear that that's what other people are doing and they're afraid they're missing out on something.

chewy

thats why i was asking about individual grinds i probably didn't get me money's (and me saturday mornings up at 7 ) worth...

chewy

of the usi dudes who did another goverment buidling occupation yesterday o highlight the fees through the back registration hike

Flukey

WE know it needs to be taught better and spoken more. We just don't have the opportunites to speak it. Students can come to Ireland and a range of other places to learn and speak English. It is an international language. We have only a few places along the west coast where we can get the same exposure. It is important to keep the language alive. How we do it is the real problem.

ressem

Didn't see the paper.

Does that statistic include subjects that typically aren't available within the school, e.g. applied maths in my school was an option in transition year. Beyond that teaching was only available as out of hours tuition, 20 of us at a time.
Since scheduling tends to be very confined in the small schools we have in Ireland, it's often the only way to do 6 subjects that you can do well in.

As for Irish, the teacher provided some after school classes at no cost, because we were so bloody desperate at it, and too stubborn to do pass.

Now what is odd is that you can get a high honour in a subject in which you get an hours tuition per week as a group, and barely scrape a pass in subjects with classes every day.

I'd guess that physics, chemistry, mech drawing, metalwork, woodwork, history, geography could be taught in a much more intensive way.

Some of the teachers I had were a hell of a lot better at transferring information than some professors but I'm under the impression that I spent over half the tuition time transferring notes from blackboard/book to copies.

:even worse rambling follows:
How do you think it would work if
a strong division between interactive tuition and written work was created.
written/tape-to-workbook work would be carried out under group supervision, not by the teacher, to be handed in at the end. They used to be able to supervise 100 kids with a single teacher, when they had something to do.

Interactive tuition should be all practition and reaction.
Class size was divided in two, classes of tuition/written were alternated?

Then again, I'm a nerd. I'd be in favour of recording classes on NAS for use by those students later. Doesn't mean it'd work.

Slice

I don't think it's an issue with Irish specifically or languages in the Leaving Cert that's the problem.

To be honest the Leaving Cert is quite a narrow means of educating people. It's more concerned with sitting an exam than it is about inbuing people with life skills or knowledge.

There really shouldn't be any need for pupils to do grinds and the fact that there are so many taking them suggests that there's something seriously wrong with our schools. In my opinion there shouldn't be such an emphesis on homework and outside study - it should be encouraged but not made to seem mandatory. You should be able to get an ordinary pass just by attending school everyday (minus the homework and grinds) and to do better should be something that's left to individual ambition.

I'm not suggesting that the UK system is better, in fact it's far from perfect but at least pupils over there aren't assessed solely on one exam. Continuous assessment is better for reflecting actual ability than an exam that plays on chance and the person's capability of regurgating essays onto a page. There is the argument that teachers shouldn't be assessing their own pupils in that their role is for guidance but this seems to be an excuse to discourage continuous assessment altogether without considering all the alternatives.

The LC is great in that it gives everyone an equal chance to apply for all third level courses based on the points system regardless of what subjects pupils specialise in but at the same time LC subjects need to have more variety in that they can't be so academically orientated. The Leaving Cert Applied, FAS and PLC schools all offer great oppotunities for progress in education but there seems to be a certain stigma associated with them in that they are portrayed as inferior options to the LC when in fact many pupils just aren't meant to progress into university as a natural course in their education. By implying that not going to university is a negative is so discouraging for going on to do anything at all. The best way to learn is to encourage interest in what you're studying and the more variety and choice pupils have the more they are likely to take in and if they have a varied choice they are more likely to find something they have ambitions in.

It seems that alot of the reasons are financial when it comes to the problems with secondary education. Continuous assessment would involve such a dramatic reorganisation of the system and developing new ways of measuring a pupil's ability at a cost that'll probably be far greater than preparing exam papers and sending out monitors to ensure the rules in an exam are complied with. This is also the case with the choice of subjects in the LC - Like Religion was considered as a subject to be added to the LC course before IT because of the costs associated with having the necessary equipment (notable computers and broadband connections) even though the IT sector in Ireland is huge. People's attitudes are also another problem I think - there is the argument that colleges and universities have strayed from their place as centres of academic learning but at the same time traditional academic persuits have a role in an education system that should be more accomodating of everyone - especially when the argument is often used that everyone has a right to free education.

jill_valentine

Irish as it stands is a horrible, horrible language to learn through school. All my insane Irish teachers, stupidly confusing textbooks, and frustratingly pigheaded outlook by the staff made me loathe it. My insanely republican Irish teacher was so scary that I used to be physically sick with pure terror before every class. She assumed we knew stuff we had never learned, and then screamed at us for not knowing. She treated us like national traitors for not having any idea what the hell the conditional tense in Irish was. She wasn't the worst.

I got grinds to get by. I got a B in Honours, put down my result sheet, and swore never, ever to speak the damn language again. I hate it because it represents 40 terrifying minutes of every school day wasted on a useless, dead language.

Hey, I guess it's a Pavlov's dog response...

pork99

jill_valentine wrote:

Irish as it stands is a horrible, horrible language to learn through school. All my insane Irish teachers, stupidly confusing textbooks, and frustratingly pigheaded outlook by the staff made me loathe it. My insanely republican Irish teacher was so scary that I used to be physically sick with pure terror before every class. She assumed we knew stuff we had never learned, and then screamed at us for not knowing. She treated us like national traitors for not having any idea what the hell the conditional tense in Irish was. She wasn't the worst.

I got grinds to get by. I got a B in Honours, put down my result sheet, and swore never, ever to speak the damn language again. I hate it because it represents 40 terrifying minutes of every school day wasted on a useless, dead language.

It was precisely the same for me - I know more German from working for 3 months in a factory in Germany than I know Gaelic from 10 years of school Gaelic. But that's part of a larger problem - education here is producer not consumer lead - teachers can be as useless as they wish and still get huge pay rises. Huge pay rises without any sort of performance monitoring let alone any risk of being fired for incompetence. If you worked in any organistion that has to make money to survive and were as crap at your job as many of my teachers were you would be out the door before you would know what hit you. A certain proportion of teachers (by no means all teachers I hasten to add), like your Shinner nutcase Gaelic teacher, are people who believe the world owes them a living just for turning up and keeping a chair moist. ****. The sort of deadwood who will sink this country's economy if we are not careful, you also get them in the Civil Service, Health services etc.

It's interesting to read "Ireland: a Social and Cultural History 1922-79" by Terence Brown on this. As someone mentioned above responsiblity for reviving Gaelic was left to the government who passed the buck to the Dept of Education, who passed it to the teachers who passed it to schoolchildren. We chose the lazy-stupid way. While young people were being forced through rote learning and cramming of Gealic to get into university, pass civil service exams etc the country's native Gaelic speakers were forcing their children to learn English because the only future they had was in places like Boston or Birmingham where Gaelic was no use to them.