Prison reform. Yes or no

dark_knight_ire

I find it interesting to see the amount of do gooders in the world that think they can change everything with a hug lol. I'm sick of reading in the papers people getting out of jail for murder after 5/6yrs.

I also have a problem with how comfortable it is in jails now, criminals want for nothing :-/

We should have a justice system like the USA where life means life. I think one day we will but things will have to get a lot worse first. any change put forward and you have do gooders out complianing. With attitudes like "This poor murdering rapist from tallaght its not his fault its thew systems fault", oh come on and give me a break.

Flogging should be brought back, life should mean life. Also the gaurdai should have more power and be better protected, and a tagging system should be also introduced.

Let me know what you think.

thejollyrodger

Im in favour !! we need more new prisons

DadaKopf

I think you're a right-wing reactionary. I don't see any, as you say, 'do-gooders' of any merit proposing penal reforms that amount to please to 'be nicer to each other'. Credible penal reform advocates usually propose measures to deter crime that include certain methods of humane punishment as well as proposing certain instruments to tackle domestically-based and structurally-based causes of crime.

The big problem, for you, obviously, is you don't think our various Human Rights covenants and conventions are worth the paper they're written on. In more general terms, the big problem, and irony, is that penal-regressives manage their disillusionment with their own punitive penal system with calls for greater levels of violence meted out by the state.

It makes more sense to propose a comprehensive anti-crime strategy that addresses the issues of crime in a more comprehensive and genuinely humanitarian manner, one which addresses civil, political, economic and social rights. That means nothing short than an entire re-examiniation of society, politics and the economy.

Part of the reason why crime is, allegedly, increasing is because of greater levels of (perceived) deprivation in Western societies, including Ireland and, it must be said, a culture of impunity among the middle- and upper-classes of Irish society. Part of the reason why prisons are overcrowded is because of right-wing policies aimed at strenghtening the hand of the state while offering less and less social support. Added to that is the fact that the state cannot pay for more and more inmates because the present political economy is pressing a continuous decline national revenues required to maintain the economy and state itself. That's why inmates are let out so frequently.

In short, the cause of crime is the solution, the solution is the cause.

ionapaul

You want to know someone who is really tough on criminals, check out America's Toughest Sheriff tm, Joe Arpaio!

http://www.reelectjoe.com/index2.cfm

That is no joke, he is currently an Arizona sheriff who lays the law down to the inmates under his control. His reply to the prisoners who criticise him: this prison is just like a hotel - if you don't like the service, just don't come back. Obviously a VERY extreme solution there!

ecksor

I also have a problem with how comfortable it is in jails now, criminals want for nothing :-/

Aren't we supposed to send people to prison as punishment, not for punishment?

ionapaul

Singapore has extremely low levels of crime, as they have a zero tolerance approach that levies very harsh punishments on even minor crimes. Never saw any graffetti while there, seemed like a very safe place. Certainly wouldn't want to be a criminal there. However, the state is semi-dictatorial, same guy (and his clique) in charge for many years...

ionapaul

ecksor wrote:

Aren't we supposed to send people to prison as punishment, not for punishment?

I think his point was that prison is not as much of a punishment as it should be...throughout history the conditions of someone's imprisonment was seen as part of the punishment (relatively cramped conditions, no privacy, etc)

Georgiana

I'm curious to know how the flogging would work in practice-who exactly would be flogged, where and by whom??

ecksor

ionapaul wrote:

I think his point was that prison is not as much of a punishment as it should be...

At first I thought "Yeah, that's what I thought too" but then I realised that I can't tell if you're agreeing with the distinction I made and if so how it relates.

ionapaul wrote:

throughout history the conditions of someone's imprisonment was seen as part of the punishment (relatively cramped conditions, no privacy, etc)

Right, but is the Irish prison system based upon that principle?

Stabshauptmann

h, so we should copy the American system and give tougher sentences, how is that working out for them? Crime rates low are they, old ppl walk the streets at night etc?

I do agree that I feel a bit, I don’t know, as if justice isn’t done when ppl get off with what we might consider short terms. What upsets me more is reoffenders. Ppl with as many as 15 previous convictions. Of course if they were given 10 years mandatory sentences for each of those offences they never would have clocked up so many. Then again if we were to execute them…

But believe it or not tougher sentences don’t really act as a deterrent. I read in either the Times or the Indo recently how no reduction in crime rates came about in the US after they introduced tougher sentences. Ireland has a history of quite severe sentences and horrendous institutions, I think its abhorrent they were maintained for so long. You cant scare ppl straight, if you want to prevent crime you must tackle the causes of it. If it is a social factor like poverty or drug addiction then how exactly does incarceration solve this unless the time in prison is spent providing the offender with the skills needed to combat his problems? If it is a mental one, a particular personality, nihilism or just selfishness then the offender needs to be rehabilitated.

When we see ppl who just laugh in the face of those trying to help them and basically give the finger to the system, I think,”OK these ppl don’t want to be helped, wont accept help, then give a longer than normal minimum sentence to reoffenders”.

AngelofFire

Tougher prison sentences only serve to please the tabloid readers and the ignorant, the do not make the streets any safer, the only way in which they are effective is that they stop people from thinking about or considering the true causes and roots of crime.

By the way why do you mention a "rapist from tallaght". are you trying to incite classist and abhorrent snobbery on this thread?.

AngelofFire

By the way the only prison reform i think should be brought about is reabilitation of certain criminals. In a reabilitation experiment in california, it was found that reabilitated criminals were much less likely too offend than prisoners who served their time merely locked up in a cell.

chill

dark_knight_ire wrote:

I find it interesting to see the amount of do gooders in the world that think they can change everything with a hug lol. I'm sick of reading in the papers people getting out of jail for murder after 5/6yrs.

Your characterisation of what a 'do-gooder' is is rediculous.

I also have a problem with how comfortable it is in jails now, criminals want for nothing :-/

Most people would say it depends on the crime.

We should have a justice system like the USA where life means life.

Eh no thanks. What's so great about the US system ? does it reduce crime ? NO !
Yes I agree - Life should mean life and I believe in compulsory work.

I think one day we will but things will have to get a lot worse first. any change put forward and you have do gooders out complianing. With attitudes like "This poor murdering rapist from tallaght its not his fault its thew systems fault", oh come on and give me a break.

Again with the rediculous do-gooder stuff....

Flogging should be brought back,

No way. That's just lowering ourselves to their level for no good reason.

Gurgle

chill wrote:

(Quote:
Flogging should be brought back)
No way. That's just lowering ourselves to their level for no good reason.

I think all prisoners should be working 40+ hours a week for 50c / hour.
Some of them may have actual skills which could be employed. Those who don't should be chained to a big wheel to generate power, until they learn (in their spare time) a skill.

Could possibly make the prison system profitable, or at least less of a burden on society. At best, a proportion of them may actually leave prison with new skills which just possibly might enable them to go straight.

thejollyrodger

One of the things a country is tested on is the way in which it treats its prisioners. Obviously MountJoy is a disgrace and we need a modern prision were we can effectively stop drugs getting into the prisioners and deal with the ever increasing number of prisoners in this country.

Then we can put a stop to the drug/killing/gang crime wave that has swept this country since Veronica Gerin got gunned down in dublin

Sand

We need to build more prisons, especially for youth offenders. Whether you want them to be gulags or counselling centers is a personal preference. No matter how terrifying/great a prison is, it wont impact on crime until people are reassured by well funded and effective law enforcement that they will be caught and prosecuted and that space is available to ensure they will serve their sentence in full. If youre pretty sure you wont get caught who cares what prison is like - you wont go there. As a counter example the NYPD have employed zero tolerance very successfully to combat crime in New York.

Even if youre caught theres a very good chance you wont go to prison given the literally insane Judges we have. Sentencing is laughable, I remember that rape case where the rapist got a suspended sentence because he wasnt, in the reasoning of the judge, especially violent. The important thing about Justice is that it should be done, and be seen to be done. Thats not happening anymore so its no wonder the gardai are so demoralised and the general public so cynical about the justice system.

I do however think that think its ludicrous that the Prison service claim they cant prevent drugs circulating in the Prison system. Yes. Yes, they bloody well can if they think its worth the hassle. They control all access. They can search anywhere they want. They can confine any problem cases. Its not that they cant stop drugs getting in, its that they dont want to. Drugs are a comfort blanket to keep the prisoners docile, along with other entertainments such as TV.

think all prisoners should be working 40+ hours a week for 50c / hour.

I dont think convicts make for the most motivated workforce, especially on 50c an hour. Better to just sit in your cell and read dont you think? Youd have to link the work to more rights within the prison system. i.e. your confined to your cell unless you participate successfully in this work programme. For exceeding standards you get more rights, such as TV etc etc.

whosurpaddy

AngelofFire wrote:

the do not make the streets any safer, .

seems straightforward enough that if scumbag A is in prison for longer then for that period of time he wont be out robbing/raping/murdering etc.

This is for Ireland Btw.

1) removal of luxury items from prisons i.e. ability to smoke, internet access, TV access.
2) Life sentences meaning life. All sentencing being kept as close to the judge's decision as possible. Parol hearings kept to a minimum.
3) All convicts required to work on rebuilding of road network, public works etc.
4) Solidary confinement re-introduced for violent offenders. Removal of prisoner rights for visiting, presents, etc during these periods.
5) Bi-monthly blood tests for any evidence of drugs, or alcohol. Addition of prison time for anything found.
6) Repeat offenders would gradually recceive worse conditions each time they return to Jail after release.


Generally remove the holiday mentality and make prison a place where no-one wants to go.

mycroft

I'm curious to know how the flogging would work in practice-who exactly would be flogged, where and by whom??

The woman in the thigh high boots and corset obviously.........

Some of them may have actual skills which could be employed. Those who don't should be chained to a big wheel to generate power, until they learn (in their spare time) a skill.

Okay I work a forty hour week and am trying to study in my spare time, its bloody hard. Now if I had below average education (like most criminals) What would my chances of learning anything.

The question is at the end of the day who do you want coming out of prison. A reformed character or the same blank brutalised face, who knows only what he knew when he came in.

Just to recap, America has 4% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prison population. The majority of these prisoner come from disadvantaged backgrounds and have a poor education.

This a fairly interesting day for this thread. Today the Guardians prison columist was released after serving 20 years of his sentence. Erwin James, has for the last number of years been writing a column in the Guardain about his experiences in prison. In the last few years he has been transfered into an open prison. He has learnt how to drive, and now works for a charity in a position of increased responsibility. Everyday he has left prison driven to the train station, got on gone to work, and then come back to prison. For the first time really in his adult life, he is trusted, responsible and has something to work for. He will not reoffend.

In the end of the day, he's what you want coming out of prison. Someone who will not reoffend. He got this way not because of some "prison as a detterent" he got this way because of an open progressive system that trusted him, and allowed him to gain skills education himself and reform.

Read some of his recent columns here

Then we can put a stop to the drug/killing/gang crime wave that has swept this country since Veronica Gerin got gunned down in dublin

Yes we really need someone to respond to the bat signal again. Someone to climb into Veronica bat Opal Corsa and strike fear in the hearts of gangster. yes that was flippant, but c'mon that a ludcrious statement, but Guerin did nothing to prevent criminals from working........She inconvienced some.....

bonkey

Deleted User wrote:

3) All convicts required to work on rebuilding of road network, public works etc.

Generally speaking, I'd consider this to be a bad idea. Firstly, it involves removing the convicts from teh confines of a prison and putting them in a situation which is far more risky (if it wasn't then what would we need the prisons for).

Secondly, I would also point out that this would likely be highly unpopular with many groups who would - in effect - prisoners taking their jobs from them.

4) Solidary confinement re-introduced for violent offenders.

Without knowing what you mean by solitary confinement, I wouldn't comment on that one.

6) Repeat offenders would gradually recceive worse conditions each time they return to Jail after release.

Why? You think if we treat them badly enough they'll eventually come round?

Generally remove the holiday mentality and make prison a place where no-one wants to go.

Is there any indication that anyone currently wants to go to prison, any more than - say - people wanted to go to the poorhouse in the 18th or 19th century?

As for the holiday mentality....have you done time Klaz? Because if not, that strikes me as an awful assumption to be making, especially considering that it was you pointing out how life imprisonment meant running the risk of institutionalisation, mental problems, drug addiction, rape, physical abuse, and so on and so forth.

I must admit that I find it worrisome that these all constitute part of a "holiday mentality" to you.

jc

AngelofFire

Sand wrote:

We need to build more prisons,

No we dont.We already have one of the largest number of prisoners per 10,000 poulation in europe.Thats a serious indictment on the governments capability and willingness to control the factors that lead to crime in the first place.

Why? You think if we treat them badly enough they'll eventually come round?

Yup I do.

Is there any indication that anyone currently wants to go to prison, any more than - say - people wanted to go to the poorhouse in the 18th or 19th century?

Sorry. Not clear enough. repeat offenders don't see Prison as being a bad place. Make a place they don't want to go. Ever.

As for the holiday mentality....have you done time Klaz? Because if not, that strikes me as an awful assumption to be making, especially considering that it was you pointing out how life imprisonment meant running the risk of institutionalisation, mental problems, drug addiction, rape, physical abuse, and so on and so forth.

No I haven't. Have you?

Aye I was. But again I also pointed out access to the internet, TV, visiting days, Full medical services etc etc etc. all of which are free.

I must admit that I find it worrisome that these all constitute part of a "holiday mentality" to you.

Poor choice of words. But it seems to me that they don't view prison as being something bad. A punishment. Instead they've been there, and are willing to go back.

mycroft

access to the internet, TV, visiting days, Full medical services etc etc etc. all of which are free

Just onto the last point. You'd prefer they come out as sick men and women a burden on the health service.

Poor choice of words. But it seems to me that they don't view prison as being something bad. A punishment. Instead they've been there, and are willing to go back.

Willing? Um what about a junkie who is robbing to feed his addiction. He's not willing to go to prison but is commiting a crime because he has a disease.

You'll come back and say "you're just soft on addicts, dose of hard labour will sort em out" Well it hasn't and won't. Look at it as pure economics, Junkie steals €2,500 a week to feed his €500 a week habit. In Prison he's costing you thousands a week. You want at the end of his stay in prison for him to be clean, and have the potential of a job.

For that he needs rehabilation programs, education programs, and help.