Wing chun/kung fu in Dublin

eth0_

Anyone know of any kung fu or wing chun/tsun classes in Dublin? Have been trying to find a class in the Drogheda area to no avail, and as I work in Dublin I guess I could do a class here.

Preferably in the city!

Naos

There is a class, hmm sorry not sure, but think its Wing Tsun Kung Fu. Its in Coolmine (Blanchardstown area). Went to a class to check it out, wasnt very impressed to be honest, especially at the instructors initial words about the club "We dont try to make you fit" Them words just nailed it for me, why join a MA club if you arent going to get fitter?

PhoenixRising

There's a good Kung Fu club in Blackrock. Might not suit you if you are based in the city centre though, but it's definitely worth a look. Their website is http://www.scmaa.ie.

Edit: Their website seems to be under construction at the moment. They are based in the Newpark Sports Centre (on the Newpark school grounds) on Newtownpark Avenue, Blackrock, Co. Dublin.

Colm_OReilly

There's a good Kung Fu club in Blackrock. Might not suit you if you are based in the city centre though, but it's definitely worth a look. Their website is http://www.scmaa.ie.

That's Paul Moran isn't it? Paul is very progressive. He's a senior level boxer and is working hard on his ground game.(He's one of John Kavanagh's ATG's) He also has Thai guys out to coach his club. Well worth a looksee if you're that far south.

PhoenixRising

Yeah that's him. He makes it more interesting by incorporating elements of other arts/styles like you said, but still keeping a strong emphasis on Kung Fu and self-defense techniques. He's a nice chap as well.

eth0_

I think I might check that one out, is it near the DART? I'm working in the IFSC so anywhere on the DART is handy for me.
Do you know what the classes in Parnell st are like, any reports?

columok

Its a 10 minute walk from Blackrock or Seapoint Dart Stations. I can say that with certainty cuz its just behind my house.

Bepetki

If you work in the IFSC, there is a Kenpo Club just off Pearse St which you should check out. They've just moved premises there from Leeson St and the instructors are ultra cool.

Regarding Kung Fu... I love the history of the art, although am too aware of it's modern day shortcomings - defensively speaking. When I went for Kenpo I decided this was the ultimate, in practical terms, for me. However, because Kenpo is a 'hard style' I now want to do a 'soft style'. I figure that studying T'ai Chi will give me that Yin Yang balance!

If you're having problems finding a Kung Fu club, why not try my approach? You get the all the benefit of practicality with Kenpo as well as the history and grace of Kung Fu in T'ai Chi with one complementing the other.

I dunno... it's just a suggestion.

Gyck

There's a good Kung Fu club in Blackrock. Might not suit you if you are based in the city centre though, but it's definitely worth a look. Their website is http://www.scmaa.ie.

I train with Paul, excellent classes, very progressive (as has been noted). The club is part of the YMAA but we work with John Kavanagh fairly frequently. Classes are on Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays from 7.00pm. It's an easy walk from the DART.

columok

I would make the small DART journey out to Blackrock. I have heard good things about Paul. I believe aswell as being an excellent Kung-Fu teacher, he practices Vale Tudo/Grappling with SuperCoach John Kavanagh (www.irishbjj.com).

Training with Paul you could get the best of the traditional Kung-Fu and very practical MMA/Grappling. Sounds like the perfect arrangement to me!

Colm_OReilly

When I went for Kenpo I decided this was the ultimate, in practical terms, for me. However, because Kenpo is a 'hard style' I now want to do a 'soft style'.

Bepetki,

Do you ever vist the International Kenpo Fellowship's Forum ? There's a good discussion that I took part in a while ago on the "Best Art". Maybe you'd like to read it?

If you want a hard style, do a few sessions in Bridgestone. Thai guys are the toughest around! I never really understood that whole hard style-soft style thing when it comes to TMAs. It always seemed just more unnecessary pedantics and hypothesising.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Bepetki

Thanks for that link Colm.

Yes it does sound pedantic. That's cool, but I have my reasons which I won't go into at the risk of boring everyone to death. Except maybe to say that everyone has their reasons for studying different combat styles, and each person's reasons are to embark on personal journies.

I don't know what mine is yet - even after over 15 years of studying - but when I look back, I'm glad I tried. There is no 'best' martial art. It's like asking what's the best way to get to New York from Dublin? As Bruce Lee famously said, don't concentrate on the finger, or you'll miss the moon and all it's heavenly glory!

If I get started i won't stop, so I'll leave it at that.

Note to others... I have been referring to the link that Colm sent me about best style. There's some pretty deep arguments (if a little convoluted) in there.

columok

Colm,

Checked out that forum for the first time.

Crazy. Those guys got so angry and seemed incapable of having a logical discussion/argument. Then the thread starter calls you all closed minded, pats his mates on the back and claims that you know nothing of Kempo.

They try and make themselves offended at every juncture just because they dont want to answer your questions, all of which I felt were asked in a relatively polite manner.

What a fellowship!

blondie83

Bepetki wrote:

If you work in the IFSC, there is a Kenpo Club just off Pearse St which you should check out. They've just moved premises there from Leeson St and the instructors are ultra cool.

I second that - I used to train with them in Leeson street and they know what they're on about! Good idea with he Tai Chi too, means you get to incorporate a bit of grappling into things, and learn more about how the body reacts to different actions.

columok

Good idea with he Tai Chi too, means you get to incorporate a bit of grappling into things

Dunno about Tai Chi for grappling. Unless it includes Shuai Chiao (sp?).

For grappling try: Judo, Wrestling, BJJ. Train with Paul Moran and youll get real grappling combined with traditional kung fu!

blondie83

I'm talking about grappling to learn more about how we react, rather than grappling in a self defense type situation. I know someone who does Tai Chi and its very interesting to watch how he reacts when his friends try to get him down on the ground. He goes completly relaxed, and just moves his body, no locks or anything. He doesn't make any offensive moves, but at the same time they never get him down on the ground. I think maybe they do some form of "soft" grappelling as opposed to the "hard" grappelling that we do in class (I do bujinkan). I was considering doing Tai Chi as well as ninjutsu this year, just to see if I could learn anything new that would help me understand it better(grappelling has never been my strong point!)

columok

If you really wanted to improve your grappling you should consider coming to either a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class or go to a Judo class. Whatever arguments you can make about traditional martial arts striking etc, Im quite emphatic that too be good at grappling you have to do a grappling system that incorporates full resistance. BJJ would tie in nicely to your ninjitsu as Ive seen Rob teach some rolling arm bars and the like, and with us youd get a chance to work on them against a moving opponent. Then you could nail all your fella ninjas in that 10 minutes free grappling at the start of class. Also with BJJ you learn it so quickly that youll see dramatic differences in your grappling ability in a small period of time!

Pop down to us during the sports expo and let us persuade you in person .


Edit:You cant learn how people really react unless you are sparring against them with full resistance.

blondie83

I was thinking of what I could learn from the more more relaxed style of grappelling in Tai Chi, as opposed to the alive sort that we do in our class, and that I'm fairly sure you do in yours! Thanks for the offer though, I will certainly be down to see your stand. I'll probably be on the ninjutsu one myself if you want to pop down and see us. I'm going to have to miss a few lectures that week, but sure whats the harm - they never do me any good anyway! :cool:

Bepetki

columok wrote:

Pop down to us during the sports expo and let us persuade you in person .

Good discussion on complementary styles. I was wondering about this expo you are talking about? Can you let me know times and dates etc (If, that is, it is open to public?)

How do you rate 'sticky hands' as a resistance exercise? I believe it's used quite extensively in T'ai Chi. We do a bit of it in Kenpo and it's great as an arm conditioner and also for learning how to 'feel' your opponent. (Although reading that back it sounds more like a nocturnal exercise than combat training!

columok

Its the UCD Sports Expo Im talking about. Itll be on in the third or maybe last week in september. Dunno about it being open to the public but I'll let you know nearer the time .

How do you rate 'sticky hands' as a resistance exercise? I believe it's used quite extensively in T'ai Chi. We do a bit of it in Kenpo and it's great as an arm conditioner and also for learning how to 'feel' your opponent. (Although reading that back it sounds more like a nocturnal exercise than combat training!

Interesting question. Ive seen it before and tried a little (with a traditional jiu jitsu friend who does a bit of wing chun). Are you asking about its effectiveness as an exercise or as methodology for resisting grappling?

I think that its an interesting exercise and it can develop sensitivity to movement. Im not sure how easily this sensitivity to movement could be translated to a real moving resisting opponent. I think there are more effective methods of this kind of training. Our standup grappling methodology revolves around Greco Roman Wrestling. Sometimes after our warm up we pract pummeling for position which involves very short range (often body to body- not a nocturnal activity ) hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder and body control. Its kind of like a practical sticky hands in my opinion. Worth seeing in person (Come Down: www.twokingsmma.net) and well show you! You are certainly trying to feel your opponents intentions and you quickly learn some very handy skills.

Colm_OReilly

Sports Specific drills develop, by and large, sport specific skills. So if you want to get good at stick hands, train sticky hands.

As for its practicallity in a combat scenario, the "trapping" range does not exist in a fight. When you are at arms length one of two things will happen, you'll move back into punching and kicking range (Stand Up) or you'll grab onto each other (Clinch)*. As for getting a feel for what your opponent is doing, just grab him in a bear hug or hold him down and see how he reacts. Do this day in day out and you'll figure out what he does to escape pretty quickly.

Bepetki try and make it down to train with us sometime, it would be great if you could.

Colm

*Clinch: Clinch is defined as when the shoulder or elbow of one combatant is in contact with the shoulder/torso/head or upper arm of the opponent.

Bepetki

Thanks lads, I may well do... I checked out the two kings site and found it very interesting. Just back from training myself so am well psyched up too!

The *.avi of the American instructor was excellent. It is basically true fighting and I can see how hours upon hours of this would effectively make you an expert in a street scenario. There is no scientific hypothesising, just experiment after experiment until you find what works for you. I am way outta shape and don't think I'd last 30 seconds in one of those classes. That said... what better way to get in shape!?

I have to say, it was like Fight Club but without the broken bones! Good stuff! When's your next session? Who brought this style over here? I'd love the instructors at my club to see this... they're very progressive and might want to involve this as part of their regime.

columok

Hey Bepetki,


When I saw that clip for the first time it really confronted a lot of my opinions of martial arts training. It really clears up a lot of our arguments about alive training. Glad you enjoyed it

I reckon youd last fine. Colm and Mick are very understanding coaches and they are very good at assisting people in their first class. Great work out though and great fun! You pick up the fitness very quickly purely because your motivation is the fun you are having!

When's your next session?

Mondays and Wednesdays at Two Kings MMA. About to head of this evening. Colm is teaching some Clinch work this evening (Greco Roman Wrestling -Which I love)

Who brought this style over here?

John Kavanagh, the highest ranking Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor in Ireland started the SBG Ireland branch. His website is www.irishbjj.com. There is a full schedule of classes (including Muay Thai, wrestling and Yoga) which are run in Harolds Cross.

Matt Thornton, the American in the video, is the head of SBG (Straight Blast Gym) our organisation. Check out loads of articles at www.straightblastgym.com go to Gorilla Press and then Philosophy or Articles.

Also check out www.onedragon.com and go to articles.

I'd love the instructors at my club to see this... they're very progressive and might want to involve this as part of their regime.

Good to here. Hope they enjoy it as much as you did!!

Take care and hopefully see you on the mats!!

Colm_OReilly

Bepetki,

Glad you like'd the site. It would be rockin if you could come down and train with us. When do you think you could make a training session?

Bepetki

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Glad you like'd the site. It would be rockin if you could come down and train with us. When do you think you could make a training session?

Cheers again, lads.

I might try and drop in this Monday for a look see. I'll be in Kenpo myself that day so I might drop out after. By the way, I was saying in a different thread that (even though I'm constantly getting you two Colms confused) that your responses have been very mature and extremely noble to all those who have cross-examined and taunted you in this forum. And at the risk of sounding like I am a$$ kissing, I think you are both a credit to your style.

Keep up the good work!

Colm_OReilly

I'm constantly getting you two Colms confused

I'm a lot more attractive :cool:

columok

I'm a lot more attractive

*piss myself laughing*

Riley is makes up for his lack of modesty (and mirrors in his house) by being rather good at Jiu Jitsu.

Colm_OReilly

Riley is makes up for his lack of modesty (and mirrors in his house) by being rather good at Jiu Jitsu

and having decent grammar.

columok

How did that phantom "is" get in there?

and having decent grammar.

Please explain where the main clause is in this sentence. Otherwise I dont think you qualify for membership of the Decent Grammar Society!!

Colm_OReilly

Please explain where the main clause is in this sentence

You had to ask didn't you? A clause is a group of related words containing a subject and a verb. The subjec is this sentence and the verb is is (to be). "The main clause is in this sentence" is the main clause in that particular sentence.

I thank you.

columok

Off to the grammar rodeo with you then!

Bepetki

Okay... I'm p[iddled drunk right now but I gotsta say, if I start training with you two, I'll show you both both up in the looks and the grammatical departments... however, you may both start pummelling me into ridiculous submission so I'd better keep my mouth shut.

By the way, I mentioned BJJ to Sifu Darren today and he said that - was it John Kavanagh? - used to train with himself and Sifu Shay McNamee. Sifu Darren said JK was excellent and that when he goes to ground he still uses Kenpo techniques i.e. In a street situation, biting and gouging are where it's at. That's what we are taught... In a real situation, anything goes. You just need to know it's there. I suppose this separates Kenpo from BJJ: Kenpo is Technique + Aliveness. BJJ (from my understanding) is total aliveness. Take from that statement whjat you will...

Mucho respecto... Needsta getsta bed now...

Ben.

Colm_OReilly

JK was excellent and that when he goes to ground he still uses Kenpo techniques

I'm afraid not. JK does not utilise any Kenpo in his game. Neither do I for that manner.

In a street situation, biting and gouging are where it's at

Would you like to rely solely on your ability to bite and gouge if you were in a street fight with say, Oscar De La Hoya(sp?), or Rulon Gardiner (2000 Olympic Greco Roman Wrestling champ). The situation you find yourself in, be it a street fight, a competitive match, or training, will determine what you will and will not do, but the fundamentals - movement, positioning skills, timing, footwork, etc etc - remain constant without.

If I could take you down while you are punching and kicking me, then sit on your stomach and hold your arms down, what's to stop me biting as well as striking or submiting you? The bite/gouge argument doesn't hold up once your on the mats.

Here's something you'd probably like, it's from an SBG instructor called Paul Sharp, who's also involved in Law Enforcement. Click here and the article is near the end of the page.

BJJ (from my understanding) is total aliveness

How could you have any alive art/sport without techniques? In boxing, for example, you have the technique of the jab, parry, cross, etc. It's Aliveness that makes that technique into a usable skill. Click here for a more indepth analysis of technique vs skill as they relate to martial arts.

I'll show you both both up in the looks and the grammatical departments

Dude, you know what this means? A Walk Off!

Peace Out,
Colm

columok

if I start training with you two, I'll show you both both up in the looks and the grammatical departments...

I'll be practicing my past participles combing my hair in front of the mirror. Youre screwed now!

Moojuice

I worked with Paul on a movie last summer and he knows his stuff, well worth look in. He is a real sound guy too. Where on pearse street is the Kenpo club? I trained in Kenpo when I was in Trinity and now I want to get back in to it. Is it a good club to train in? Directions and details appreciated!

Thanks,

Moo

Dyr

to get back to the original question (its all me me me with these MMA dudes )
theres a wing chun class in hall on molesworth lane off molesworth street (off grafton street) theyre there from 8pm on thursday, no idea if the'yre good, bad, indifferent, wingtsun/chung/chum or whatever

Michael O Leary

Mear wrote:

There is a class, hmm sorry not sure, but think its Wing Tsun Kung Fu. Its in Coolmine (Blanchardstown area). Went to a class to check it out, wasnt very impressed to be honest, especially at the instructors initial words about the club "We dont try to make you fit" Them words just nailed it for me, why join a MA club if you arent going to get fitter?

Hi all,:)

Asking why join a MA club if you arent going to get fitter is like asking why go to the Gym if you arent going to learn how to defend yourself. There is crossover and Wing Tsun will increase your cardiovascular endurance, local muscular endurance, flexibility and in some instances the strength of your individual muscles. These elements are generally known as "fitness". However in Wing Tsun as a starting point we assume that our opponent is bigger, stronger and fitter than us (why else would they attack us?) and work from there. I could have twice as many students if I focused more on fitness especially as I am a qualified fitness instructor. However I don't as I want to train students for a 3 second fight against a bigger and stronger opponent.

I could have explained all of this to "Brian" however as it turns out he did not even take part in the class. He sat in the background, didn't ask any questions and left early.:( Brian is free to offer his opinion on the class however readers are free to judge how valid is the opinion based on the fact that he did not take part in the class.

If someone does not like my class that if fine. But at least try it out, ask questions and reflect for a little while on the answers.

Regards all,:D

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Tim_Murphy

Michael,

Sorry this is a little off topic but I was looking at your site which linked back to www.wingtsun.com

I know feck all bout wing tsun and was giving a look at some of the videos.
A lot of the stuff looked fairly unusual to me. Do you know of any videos on the net that shows this stuff being applied for real against a resisting opponent. The closest I could find on that site was probably
http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/videos/blitz/blitzdefence_10.mpg

Thanks

Michael O Leary

Hi Tim,

Nice to hear from you again. Don't worry about being off topic. Thanks for actually raising the question, its a valid one. I alway say to my students that there are no wrong questions and I feel it should be the same with forums.

Having said that do you mind if I get back to you early Thursday on it as I have a taxation :eek: exam tomorrow evening and I am finding it hard enough to concentrate as it is?

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Tim_Murphy

No bother Michael,

I only ask because although I don't claim to know anything about wing tsun, I do know a little about the standup and clinch ranges and much of the stuff on the video clips looks fairly unrealistic to me. I don't know, maybe others see it different. A few clips of people actually doing the stuff for real would solve the problem I suppose.

Michael O Leary

Hi Tim,

Exam over so I can now think about something other than taxation. Back to your question on Wing Tsun video clips. You said that you knew feck all about Wing Tsun. Fair play to you for admiting it and for taking the time to try and find out something about it. It shows you have an enquiring mind.

You asked about a Wing Tsun video where the practitioner was applying Wng Tsun for real against a resisting opponent. I suppose it all boils down to what you could call "real". Is a competition a "real" situation. As a Wing Tsun practitioner I would say no. (But then I would say that wouldn't I )

I would say that as Wing Tsun is purely self-defence orientated this would expain why there are a lack of video clips were Wing Tsun is being used in a "real" self-defence situation. I imagine the same rule would apply for video clips of BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga being applied in a self-defence situation. However I suppose the question of what is "real" comes down to semantics and is currently being dealt with in other threads at the moment.

However there is one video clips that you may/or may not find interesting if you haven't already seen it between two Wing Tsun/Chun guys. It is on post number 76 on the thread "Kung Fu on the Northside". There is a discussion on it and I will post some more of my thoughts on it later tonight.

Regarding the video clip that you saw. That was on multiple attackers and to be honast it did not accurately portray our approach. With this clip the attackers attacked one after the other. In the student programme we train so that they all attack together. However you will find other video clips (some good, some not so good) on this link. www.wingtsunlinks.com and scroll down to Wing Tsun video clips.

Regarding the videos looking unrealistic that you saw maybe we can go further with the discussion. Just for the moment I don't want to waffle on too much. So if you want to come back to me with something specific we can go from there.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Millionaire

I always wanted to learn some wing chun. I had books on it before, Simon someone , a well know chinese wc teacher in London.

even though Bruce Lee evolved into JKD, he still refered to wing chun as " a great style"

what is this big row in the past about wing chun and william cheung (bruce lee training mate in hong kong) with traditional wing chun?

and why the different spellings, are they differnt versions in style ?

Michael O Leary

Millionaire wrote:

I always wanted to learn some wing chun. I had books on it before, Simon someone , a well know chinese wc teacher in London.

even though Bruce Lee evolved into JKD, he still refered to wing chun as " a great style"

what is this big row in the past about wing chun and william cheung (bruce lee training mate in hong kong) with traditional wing chun?

and why the different spellings, are they differnt versions in style ?

Hi Gerry,

Nice to hear from you. That was a very funny story about the rooster.:D It reminds me of an excellant book I read about a fella who trained Aikido with the Toyko riot police for a year. The book was called "Angry White Pyjames" and was full of stories like that.

I think the Guy that you were talking about in London is Simon Lau. As far as I know he was the only ethnic Chinese/Malaysian person to be taught Wing Chun at the time. So not only would the Chinese not teach their martial arts to non-chinese but they would not even teach it to some other chinese living in other communities.

Regarding the difference between Wing Tsun and Wing Chun I will give you what I feel to be the best answer. Wing Tsun/Chun is a martial art based on principles rather than strict techniques. One of these principles would be,"if the limb is free, thrust forward". A simple example would be against a wrist grab. Rather than trying to break the grab and do a throw, we just ignore the grab and punch with the other hand. However the whole area of principles leaves a lot of room for interpretation and different people will have different methods based on their understanding and their intelligence.

Another factor is the teaching method by Yip Man who was the teacher of Bruce Lee, Leung Ting and William Cheung and many, many others. When Yip Man was being taught the art, Wing Tsun/Chun was traditionally taught in very small groups. Yip Man's teacher had 9 students which was something of a record. People lived in small communities for life and the teaching method was one of a personal basis. It was not so formulated but as you would be a student until one of you died, you would eventually get the whole picture. However after the Chinese civil war Yip Man fled to Hong Kong and began to teach large numbers of people but basically retained the same teaching methodology. He would not give great explanations and would also tailor make the art to suit the individual. So he would teach a barber a different way than a labourer. Because of this different Wing Tsun/Chun instructors had different ways of teaching. Depending on different dialects the art can be called Wing Chun or Ving Tsun. Leung Ting trademarked his art and called it Wing Tsun to differentiate it from his Wing Chun colleagues. However amongst Wing Chun practitioners there remain vast differences.

In marketing/advertising there is something called a unique selling point. It is what you use to differentiate your product from other peoples. William Cheung's USP was to state that he alone received the traditional and best method of Wing Chun from Yip Man and that Yip Man taught everyone else (including his own son's) a modified or less effective version. Leung Ting by contrast stated that while he received Yip Mans final version of Wing Tsun/Chun which was in a state of evolution since he began teaching it in the 1940s but that he also changed aspects of it himself to deal with fighters from others styles. We need to avoid Wing Tsun incest and learn how to defend against the other methods in other styles. He states who cares how traditional you are when someone is punching you in the face.

Bet you are sorry that you asked. I find it hard to write small answers. By the way talking about Wing Tsun/Chun being based on principles, I was having a look at a book on Krav Maga a little while ago where they listed their basic principles and guess what, they were essentially the same as Wing Tsun. I feel that most martial arts that specialise in self-defense will have similar principles with minor differences in how they are applied.

Regards,:)

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Millionaire

Thanks Michael. Thats a great explanation.

see what you say if someone grabbed your arm, just punch with the other. That is what I taught too except as a Combatives man, we prefer a palm shot. but idea is the same.

That KM book must have been my David Kahn? I trained with David in Israel last summer. he is agood guy. yeah KM as properly taught would have alot of similar principles as WT.

Yes it was Simon Lau, I still have a book of his I bought years ago. I like the straigh blast too, as used by the JKD guys.

Tim_Murphy

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Tim,

You asked about a Wing Tsun video where the practitioner was applying Wng Tsun for real against a resisting opponent. I suppose it all boils down to what you could call "real". Is a competition a "real" situation. As a Wing Tsun practitioner I would say no. (But then I would say that wouldn't I )

I would say that as Wing Tsun is purely self-defence orientated this would expain why there are a lack of video clips were Wing Tsun is being used in a "real" self-defence situation. I imagine the same rule would apply for video clips of BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga being applied in a self-defence situation. However I suppose the question of what is "real" comes down to semantics and is currently being dealt with in other threads at the moment.

By 'real' I simply meant against someone who is actually fighting back. I wouldn't worry too much about what will work on The Street until I can see that what I do will actually work against my training partners.
I looked at a good few of the video clips on the site and I didn't come across any footage that showed anything other than a demonstration. I couldn't even find any footage of people lightly sparring, not to mind anything more realistic.
Yes, I saw the fight posted in the other thread, it's not exactly what one would call impressive. It hit the ground fast and then what I saw were two beginners fighting. For someone who has a little bit of knowledge on the ground that's how it looked like to me anyway. Maybe some more experienced grapplers on here can comment?

john kavanagh

"It hit the ground fast and then what I saw were two beginners fighting. For someone who has a little bit of knowledge on the ground that's how it looked like to me anyway. Maybe some more experienced grapplers on here can comment?"

agreed - watch any fight between 2 beginners at the amatuer mma league run by mark leonard and it'll look exactly the same

and without meaning to whip a dead horse i have to point out the irony of someone who comes from the background of "dont go to the ground coz his 10 mates will jump on your head" he immediately takes the fight to the ground when things go 'live'

Mikel

How about a clip where they actually resist what the demonstrator is doing, rather than letting him hit them on the back of the head and laying on the floor playing dead?
Or, if you want to see realistic combat methods against a fully resisting opponent, how about, oh i don't know....... a boxing match?? :rolleyes:

Michael O Leary

Tim_Murphy wrote:

By 'real' I simply meant against someone who is actually fighting back. I wouldn't worry too much about what will work on The Street until I can see that what I do will actually work against my training partners.

Hi Tim,

I 100% agree with you in that it is important to see what will work against your training partners and about 95% of every Wing Tsun class involves working with a partner with only about 5% spend doing forms/patterns/katas. This should be practised at home with only pointers being given in class. Students are expected to perform against resisting partners. Here is how we do things.

Forms
First of all students are taught the basic form. Forms in Wing Tsun are similar to patterns or katas in other martial arts however they are not prearranged or rehearsed techniques. They are simply individual movements put together in a sequence and can be rearranged to form an infinite amount of techniques. Because of this there are only 3 forms in Wing Tsun. The basic form is also like an encyclopaedia which contains about 95% of the movements and the principles behind them. When Bruce Lee was learning Wing Tsun/Chun all he and his partners wanted to do was to spar. So his teacher would spar and throw him around the place. When Bruce Lee asked what he was doing wrong his teacher showed him and referenced it to his form.

Applications of the forms
The individual movements are then taken from the forms and shown how they can be used for self-defence techniques. Actually as I said previously there are no "techniques" in Wing Tsun, only principles of how to use your body for self-defence in an efficient manner. However this can be too abstract of a concept for students so we give them set techniques to work on. The techniques are only examples of how the principles are applied and will not alone or with the forms improve your fighting ability. They will give you the knowledge of how the principles should be applied and the ability will come from Chi-Sau and Lat-Sau.

Chi-Sau (Sticky Hands)
In Wing Tsun we want to defeat our opponent with the minimum of physical of effort and we assume from the outset that they will be bigger and stronger than us. We do this from the correct structural allignment of the body where the muscles have to use very little force. Chi-Sau shows you how to flow from one structurally superior position to another without leaving any gaps in between. The movements from the self-defence techniques are worked to a set formula at first but then when they have a number of movements then Chi-Sau can be practised freestyle or like sparring. (Maybe the same concept as push hands in Tai Chi, Hubud in Escrima or rolling in grappling?)

Lat-Sau
While Chi-Sau relates to a specific fighting distance Lat-Sau by contrast relates to all the five fighting distances.

1. Kicking Distance
2. Punching Distance
3. Elbow/Knee Distance
4. Stand up grappling Distance
5. Ground work Distance

I mentioned previously that Wing Tsun tries to avoid Wing Tsun incest. So we need to spar in all ranges with uncooperative/resisting opponents. The level of uncooperation increases as the student gets more advanced. We learn how to defend against kicks, punches, elbow/knee strikes, locks, grabs while standing or on the ground.

However the approach we take while sparring is that instead of only working on what we are good at, we primarily need to work on what we need to improve on. For example did you see the documentary "When we were Kings" on Mohammed Ali and George Foremans fight in Zaire? Ali was worried about getting caught on the ropes with Foreman as Foreman had a powerful body blow. So when Ali was training with his partner he did not just destroy him. It looked as if his training partner was defeating him but he was just holding back and let himself be worked against the ropes so as to work on what he was bad at? I use the term "bad" very loosely. We do the same and spar so as to work the areas we need to improve on.

To conclude Tim, I 100% agree with you that you need to test what works with a training partner and we work this on a regular basis. However sometimes it can be difficult to pressure test potentially lethal techniques. For example if someone is holding onto me and I can hit them then this is what I would do as hard as I can in real life. However while training I am not going to smash my elbow into someones throat. If I don't and they do not realise that I am being nice to them then it looks as if they are winning. So I am always looking for a balance between "aliveness", "safety" and "reality". It is for this reason that I will go to the Matt Thornton seminar to see how they approach the issue. For €65 on the Sunday I think it will be money well spent.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Millionaire

how about make a home made bullet man helemet? this would allow an defender to go hard with the attacker.

do training drills too, not sparring match as such. but as Tony Blauer (RBSD teacher) calls it a "Micro Fight". this is where attacker or attackers prick on defender like in street, verbal attack, then out of blue launches a random attack. you have to defend. with proper gear you can make it quite real.

Tim_Murphy

Hi Michael,

I mentioned previously that Wing Tsun tries to avoid Wing Tsun incest

What do you mean by this?

So we need to spar in all ranges with uncooperative/resisting opponents. The level of uncooperation increases as the student gets more advanced

Sorry, I don’t follow this logic at all. If you are sparring then by definition your partner will be uncooperative. How can the level of uncorporation increase? If you are drilling then yes, the level of cooperation can decrease, but not in sparring.

To conclude Tim, I 100% agree with you that you need to test what works with a training partner and we work this on a regular basis.

Why then do you think that it is hard to find any video clips of anything like this when there are so many clips available on just the few sites I looked at?

However sometimes it can be difficult to pressure test potentially lethal techniques.

Sure, but the vast majority of techniques I saw in the various clips were decidedly nonlethal, punches, knees, elbows, takedowns, stuff that’s very easy to actually spar with.

So I am always looking for a balance between "aliveness", "safety" and "reality". It is for this reason that I will go to the Matt Thornton seminar to see how they approach the issue. For €65 on the Sunday I think it will be money well spent.

Cool, I’ll be there too.

john kavanagh

"Sorry, I don’t follow this logic at all. If you are sparring then by definition your partner will be uncooperative. How can the level of uncorporation increase? If you are drilling then yes, the level of cooperation can decrease, but not in sparring. "

well in micheal's defence this is something we do regularily at our gym too. the guys can spar with each other with varying degrees of 'co-operation' or intensity levels from light contact/pace/pressure to (very rarely) 100% contact/pace/pressure