My new fav word: Second string

jesus_thats_gre

With the previous "debates" as to whether Arsenal had sufficient quality in reserve to cope with the coming season and their recent performace against United, I think it is a perfect time to debate who's squad has the most depth...


Speak of devils: Man U

1 Tim Howard
2 Gary Neville
3 Phil Neville
5 Rio Ferdinand
6 Wes Brown
7 Cristiano Ronaldo
9 Louis Saha
10 Ruud van Nistelrooy
11 Ryan Giggs
12 David Bellion
13 Roy Carroll
14 Alan Smith
15 Jose Kleberson
16 Roy Keane
17 Lopez Ricardo
18 Paul Scholes
19 Eric Djemba-Djemba
20 Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
21 Diego Forlan
22 John O'Shea
23 Kieran Richardson
23 Bojan Djordjic
24 Darren Fletcher
25 Quinton Fortune
27 Mikael Silvestre
29 Jonathan Spector
33 Chris Eagles
34 Phillip Bardsley
39 Paul Tierney
Gabriel Heinze
Luke Steele
Paul McShane
Liam Miller
David Fox
Colin Heath
Lee Martin





The Gunners: Arsenal

1 Jens Lehmann
3 Ashley Cole
4 Patrick Vieira
7 Robert Pires
8 Fredrik Ljungberg
9 Francis Jeffers
9 Jose Antonio Reyes
10 Dennis Bergkamp
11 Robin Van Persie
12 Bisan Lauren
13 Stuart Taylor
14 Thierry Henry
15 Francesc Fabregas Soler
17 Edu
18 Pascal Cygan
19 Gilberto Silva
20 Philippe Senderos
21 Jermaine Pennant
22 Gael Clichy
23 Sol Campbell
24 Manuel Almunia
28 Kolo Toure
30 Jeremie Aliadiere
31 Justin Hoyte
32 Sebastian Svard
51 Frankie Simek
52 John Spicer
55 Olafur Ingi Skulason
56 Ryan Smith
Mark Howard
Mathieu Flamini
Arturo Lupoli
Ryan Garry




Chelsea

2 Glen Johnson
3 Celestine Babayaro
4 Claude Makelele
7 Adrian Mutu
8 Frank Lampard
10 Joe Cole
11 Damien Duff
13 William Gallas
14 Njitap Geremi
18 Wayne Bridge
19 Scott Parker
22 Eidur Gudjohnsen
23 Carlo Cudicini
26 John Terry
27 Alexis Nicolas
28 Filipe Oliveira
29 Robert Huth
31 Marco Ambrosio
34 Neil Sullivan
35 Jurgen Macho
36 Jo Keenan
37 Sebastian Kneissl
38 Valerio Di Cesare
41 Craig Rocastle
50 Yves Makaba-Makalamby
Arjen Robben
Cardoso Tiago
Alexei Smertin
Renato Paulo Ferreira
Mateja Kezman
Alberto Ricardo Carvalho
Petr Cech
Didier Drogba



Chelsea ia the obvous answer with alot of big names in reserve. But half of them are over hyped mercenaries who are not in it for the team. Arsenal were an unknow quantity up until yesterday but Wenger seems to be able to special things with some young players. United will be fine but their defence seems to be a shambles without Ferdinand.

LegacyUser

Bit early to say don't ya think?

Pepe LeFrits

You left out the "The Rentboys" for Chelsea

Big Ears

em Neil Sullivan is Leeds first choice goalie now .

Arsenals is better than Uniteds , Chelsea im not sure about .

Yes the players have the quality , but do they have the desire , or are they in it for the money ? .

cournioni

You've left out Man Utd's Gerard Pique who signed from Barcelona and Giuseppe Rossi who signed from Parma.

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

You've left out Man Utd's Gerard Pique who signed from Barcelona and Giuseppe Rossi who signed from Parma.

Pique isnt expected to be anything but a youth player this season , maybe an odd League Cup game .

Pepe LeFrits

Big Ears wrote:

Pique isnt expected to be anything but a youth player this season , maybe an odd League Cup game .

in that case it's probably rather silly to include the likes of Lupoli, Smith (out til xmas), Skulason (probably going on loan) and so on

Big Ears

kaids wrote:

in that case it's probably rather silly to include the likes of Lupoli, Smith (out til xmas), Skulason (probably going on loan) and so on

any players that look likely to make atleast 1 appearance in the FA Cup or League should be included, but not players that will only feature in the League Cup, as Arsenal and Man United play they're youth teams and Chealsea only use they're reserves .(as in they dont count the League Cup as a first team tournament) .

I know this would probably cut down on all squads that have been posted up , but if a player dosent make an appearance in either the Fa Cup or League he's not realy a first or second team player .

LegacyUser

I find it amazing how after one game where a few reserves played, people can make a decision. Why don't you wait at least until Xmas or until one of them has to come in for a couple of games to replace a full teamer out with injury or something. I mean seriously, people who say Arsenals already probably have not even seen the majority of them play. I know I can say the same for Utd.

Big Ears

cheesedude wrote:

I find it amazing how after one game where a few reserves played, people can make a decision. Why don't you wait at least until Xmas or until one of them has to come in for a couple of games to replace a full teamer out with injury or something. I mean seriously, people who say Arsenals already probably have not even seen the majority of them play. I know I can say the same for Utd.

well I have seen almost all of Arsenals young players/youth team play .
I know a good bit about United's youth team/young players but not as much

by the way Villa have a cracking youth team , made up of mostly English players .

jesus_thats_gre

I just copied the squad listings from bbc.co.uk

Big Ears

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I just copied the squad listings from bbc.co.uk

ah I see .

jesus_thats_gre

http://www.football365.com/opinion/mailbox/story_121495.shtml


ManYoo In Decline

How many more commentators, journalists and fickle fans are going to continue to be taken in by the fallacy that suggests United have been unlucky, and consequently may struggle in the early part of the season due to injuries, suspensions, and Greek summer holidays? This is merely clouding over the deeper fundamental problems that United have, which can be laid plainly at the door of the patron saint of whisky consumption himself, Ferguson.

Admittedly United have been unfortunate to be without a number of first team players, however, there were six first team Arsenal players missing from the second half of the community shield. Sol Campbell, Pires, Freddie, Edu, Vieira, and Thierry Henry. Therefore on that basis alone United should have been able to compete, yet were comprehensively played off the park.

Modern football is undoubtedly a squad game, and on the performance of the community shield, and United's inept displays towards the end of last season, Man Utd’s squad players are simply not good enough, and blame must surely be directed at the manager, and not the injuries, suspensions etc. For example Bellion was not good enough for Sunderland, so how on Earth is he good enough for United? Phil Neville is at best average, and certainly not in the calibre of Nicky Butt, who of course was sold.

Djemba, another Fergie signing, is crap, and Fletcher although promising is certainly not good enough yet to help united recapture the title. If you compare these players to Pennant, Fabregas, Reyes, Van Persie, Clichy even Cygan (all squad players) there is no comparison. This is without Roy 'better than Gerrard and Vieira' Keane being outplayed by a 17 year old!

I know that United have been written off before, nevertheless, on this occassion I really cannot see them reclaiming the premiership, and It really may be the end of the road for Alex Ferguson.
Gary Haines, London

PHB

Its fairly simple really:

Defense
Man Utd:

First String:

Gary Neville
Rio Ferdinand
Mikael Silvestre
Gabriel Heinze

Second String:

Gerard Pique
John O'Shea
Wes Brown
Philip Neville

Third String
Phillip Bardsley
Jonathan Spector
Paul McShane
Paul Tierney

Arsenal:

First String:

Kolo Toure
Sol Campbell
Lauren
Ashley Cole

Second String:

Sebastian Svard
Ryan Garry
Pascal Cygan
Gael Clichy

Third String:
Philippe Senderos
Frankie Simek
Justin Hoyte

Chelsea:

First String:

Paulo Ferreira
Ricardo Carvalho
John Terry
Wayne Bridge

Second String:
Glen Johnson
Celestine Babayaro
William Gallas
Robert Huth


Second String:
I think you can give that to Man Utd, with Chelsea second and ARsenall third.


Midfield:

Man Utd:

First:

Roy Keane
Cristiano Ronaldo
Ryan Giggs
Paul Scholes

Second:

Darren Fletcher
Liam Miller
Eric Djemba-Djemba
Chris Eagles

Third:

Markus Neumayr
Bojan Djordjic
Lee Martin
Kleberson
Kieran Richardson
Quinton Fortune

Arsenal:

First:

Patrick Vieira(Or Replacement)
Gilberto
Robert Pires
Fredrik Ljungberg

Second:

Edu
Francesc Fabregas
Jermaine Pennant
Robin Van Persie

Third:
Olafur-Ingi Skulason
Ryan Smith
Mathieu Flamini

Chelsea:
First:

Damien Duff
Frank Lampard
Joe Cole
Alexei Smertin

Second:

Geremi
Claude Makelele
Arjen Robben
Scott Parker

Third:
Tiago Mendes
Filipe Oliveira

I'd say Chelsea definally come first in the second string department, but between Arsenal and Man Utd.

Miller + Djemba
vs.
Edu and Faberjas
Not quite sure tbh

Strikers:

Man Utd:

First:

Louis Saha
Ruud van Nistelrooy

Second:

David Bellion
Alan Smith

Third:
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
Diego Forlan
David Jones
Daniel Nardiello

Arsenal:

First:

Thierry Henry
Dennis Bergkamp

Second:

José Reyes
Jeremie Aliadiere

Third:
Francis Jeffers
Daniel Karbassiyoon
Quincy Owusu Abeyie
Arturo Lupoli

Chelsea:

First:

Didier Drogba
Eidur Gudjohnsen

Second:

Adrian Mutu
Mateja Kezman

So

Bellion + Smith
vs.
Reyes + Adaliere
vs.
Mutu and Kezman

Best play there is either Reyes or Smith, but both Mutu and Kezman are better than Bellion and Adaliere, so its kinda a tieish.


Win 3 points
Second 2 points
Third 1 point


Man Utd: 3 + 1.5 + 2 = 6.5
Arsenal : 2 + 1.5 + 2 = 5.5
Chelsea: 1 + 3 + 2 = 6

PHB

Admittedly United have been unfortunate to be without a number of first team players, however, there were six first team Arsenal players missing from the second half of the community shield. Sol Campbell, Pires, Freddie, Edu, Vieira, and Thierry Henry. Therefore on that basis alone United should have been able to compete, yet were comprehensively played off the park.

Stupidest thing ever said:

If Arsenal were missing 6 first teamers
Man Utd were missing Van Nist, Saha, Giggs, Fergie, Heinze, Ronaldo
Both missing 6 and Arsenals players did better.
Assumption -> Assumption -> wrong conclusion.

Big Ears

I dont agree qith the outcome of you're little thing but anyway theres just a few things id like to point out .

Johnathan Spector should be second string and pique should be third .
Joe Cole first string :eek: thats just crazy .
Although I do agree with you're Smertin over Makelele , I think Mourinho will favour Smertin and I myself think Smertin is the better option .

I think Chelsea defenders should come first , even though you didnt give them a third string , and they have one , they just dont use it much .

Mateja Kezman will be first string this season .


Darren Fletcher
Liam Miller
Eric Djemba-Djemba
Chris Eagles its funny in a way that all of these have risen above the mighty World Cup winner Kleberson in the pecking order .

jesus_thats_gre

Award for the most screen lengths in a post there me thinks!!

Anyway. I disagree with your conclusions once again..


Defense


Man Utd:

First String:

Gary Neville
Rio Ferdinand
Mikael Silvestre
Gabriel Heinze

Second String:

Gerard Pique
John O'Shea
Wes Brown
Philip Neville

Arsenal:

First String:

Kolo Toure
Sol Campbell
Lauren
Ashley Cole

Second String:

Sebastian Svard
Ryan Garry
Pascal Cygan
Gael Clich

Chelsea:

First String:

Paulo Ferreira
Ricardo Carvalho
John Terry
Wayne Bridge

Second String:

Glen Johnson
Celestine Babayaro
William Gallas
Robert Huth

On paper, Chelsea's defence is superior than both. How you rate United's so high is beyond me, they depend on one player. If this players is not available they are a shambles.. Chelsea or Arsenal can cope without Terry and Campbell respectively.

Arsenal's defence was best last year with 26 goals conceeded. Chelsea were second with 30 and United third with 35. An injury to Rio this year and they are back square one again. Chelsea made the biggest addition while United added Heinze who most are undecided about..

jesus_thats_gre

Midfield


Man Utd:

First String:

Roy Keane
Cristiano Ronaldo
Ryan Giggs
Paul Scholes

Second String:

Darren Fletcher
Liam Miller
Eric Djemba-Djemba
Chris Eagles

Arsenal:

First String:

Patrick Vieira(Or Replacement)
Gilberto
Robert Pires
Fredrik Ljungberg

Second String:

Edu
Francesc Fabregas
Jermaine Pennant
Robin Van Persie

Chelsea:

First String:

Damien Duff
Frank Lampard
Joe Cole
Alexei Smertin

Second String:

Geremi
Claude Makelele
Arjen Robben
Scott Parker

Chelsea
Arsenal
United

The United midfield is quickly becoming their weakest place on the pitch and its where they were always the strongest. On paper Chelsea is the strongest but Arsenal could surprise us.

jesus_thats_gre

Forwards


Man Utd:

First String:

Louis Saha
Ruud van Nistelrooy

Second String:

David Bellion
Alan Smith

Arsenal:

First String:

Thierry Henry
José Reyes

Second String:

Jeremie Aliadiere
Dennis Bergkamp

Chelsea:

First String:

Didier Drogba
Mateja Kezman

Second String:

Adrian Mutu
Eidur Gudjohnsen

On paper its tight between Chelsea and United. If Ole was available I would have said United were strongest on paper but I think Chelsea have it in the bag. Although, Arsenal have been putting them away consistently all last season with the same line up and Reyes is going to be a far bigger feature this season. Its hard to call really.. I mean Arsenal scored the most last season with 73, Chelsea second with 67 and United third with 64..



So last year Arsenal conceeded the least and scored the most.. A winning formula that looks to have been improved on this seaosn.

GuanYin

PHB wrote:

Defence:I think you can give that to Man Utd, with Chelsea second and ARsenall third.

I can't see how you got that. Player for player by premiership record, Arsenal have the best defence in the league at present. Campbell and Toure are just about the best partnership going and although I hate him with a passion, even I can't deny Cole has turned out to be world class.

Cygan and Clichy are very able defenders, Cygan had a good season last year for his appearances and there is no doubting Clichy's potential or talent. I'm not sure if Arsenal signed another defender but I thought they got one who could cover centrehalf too.

Utd chose the wrong England defender for me, and for all his talents Ferdinand is not as good a defender as campbell. That said, Utd's defence is much better with him than without and Silvestre can still be suspect at times.
The Nevilles aren't up to it anymore and I think Brown and O'Shea need to step up to the plate, as it were, this season. I'll wait and see how Heinze does before I comment.

The same goes for Chelsea, I can't see a newly put together defence adapting to the Premiership straight off but Terry is a class act and I expect him to marshall them well. I'm still not sure about Bridge defending and Johnson does nothing for me. Babayaro and Gallas are still good cover although I think Huth is a liability.

PHB wrote:

Midfield:

I'd say Chelsea definally come first in the second string department, but between Arsenal and Man Utd.

Arsenal simply have the best performing midfield in the premiership. This may be as much to do with style as the players, but Pires (who spends alot of time infield) Viera and Edu/Gilberto are just a fantastic combination.The cover is light however and it remains to be seen who well the new/emerging players slot in.


Utd are not far behind with players and arguably shade this one for depth. Scholes and Keane are frightening for anyone and Ronaldo has progressed well. Giggs is still inconsistant. However Djemba-djemba is not up to scratch and Miller will need to show his worth at this level. Fletcher looks good too and he may be called upon to be a big player this season. Butt will be missed.

Chelseas midfield relies on Duff's fitness (as did their game last year). Cole is overrated for me, and underlines Chelseas biggest problem here. They have the strongest midfield squad but too many of the same type players.
Robben didn't impress me and Cole just isn't as good as Duff so who goes where? Lampard is a class act and Smertin, if he is actually first team, will have alot to do. Makallele will need to improve on last season and what will they do with Geremi and Parker this time round?

PHB wrote:

Strikers:
Best play there is either Reyes or Smith, but both Mutu and Kezman are better than Bellion and Adaliere, so its kinda a tieish.

Utd win this one I think, with the combination of Saha, Van nist and Smith being the best combo and Bellion being highly rated as back up. Forlan will be asked to shape up or ship out. Ole's loss will be a big one.

Arsenal did well to get another year out of Bergkamp and With Reyes looking the real thing and Henry in there they may do well. Jeremie Aliadiere has shown he has the right stuff but Jeffers will need to be offloaded and replaced as Bergkamp can't play 30 games.

Gudjohnsen is a good decentplayer and Drogba and outstanding talent so Chelsea will probably be close behind Utd here. Mutu was hot and cold last year but may do well with the competition for places.[/QUOTE]


The thing about this is, How the Strikers perform is directly related to how the defence and especially the midfield respond. Henry is generally so deadly due to the way the Midfield operate behind him. Likewise, Scholes does an awful lot for the United attack.

Looking at players who can slot in and do the same job, I'd still say Arsenal up top and Chelsea arguably behind (albeit without any evidence). I wouldn't be an optimistic Utd supporter.

dirkey_wynne

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

On paper, Chelsea's defence is superior than both. How you rate United's so high is beyond me, they depend on one player. If this players is not available they are a shambles.. Chelsea or Arsenal can cope without Terry and Campbell respectively.

Arsenal's defence was best last year with 26 goals conceeded. Chelsea were second with 30 and United third with 35. An injury to Rio this year and they are back square one again. Chelsea made the biggest addition while United added Heinze who most are undecided about..

Arsenal and Chelsea can cope, for a game or two w/o Campbell and Terry respectively. But for half a season? Do you honestly believe Chelsea minus Terry for the same length of time Utd were w/o Rio would not have conceded 5 more goals than they did??

Big Ears

to be honest Gallas is a more than able replacement for Terry , and is too good to be less than a certain starter for any club .

PHB

I thought we were talking about second string
The topic being second string
I'd rate the first string much differently
This is all at the assumption of full strength which doesn't really apply in real life

Defense:
Man Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea

Midfield:
Chelsea
Arsenal
Man Utd

Attack:
Man Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea

Man Utd 3 + 1+ 3 = 7
Arsenal 2 + 2 + 2 = 6
Chelsea 1 + 3 + 1 = 4

Why do I put Man Utd's defense ahead of Arsenal or Chelsea?
Look at the record pre Rio ban, simply that.
If rio is gone I think they have trouble, I agree.

Midfield?
I think Chelsea's is the best and most would agree I think.
Arsenal is second but without Vieira , or a very good replacement(someone better than Maniche), I think they would go third.

Forward?
I think Van Nist is the second best in the world, only Schevkneko or however you spell it is better.
Saha is very good imo, and with Smith as cover I think they easily have it
Henry is great, but I don't think he is as good againist really good defenses.
Berkjamp is great too but is getting old.
Chelsea, Drogba is yet to be seen

Pepe LeFrits

Arsenal, more accurately:

First String:

Kolo Toure
Sol Campbell
Lauren
Ashley Cole

Second String:

Phillippe Senderos
Justin Hoyte
Pascal Cygan
Gael Clichy

First:

Patrick Vieira(Or Replacement)
Gilberto
Robert Pires
Fredrik Ljungberg

Second:

Edu
Mathieu Flamini
Jermaine Pennant
Robin Van Persie

First:
Thierry Henry
José Reyes

Second:
Dennis Bergkamp
Jeremie Aliadiere

Chelsea are obviously going to have the greatest strength in depth. Still, this is an incredibly futile system. Players such as Van Persie, Pennant, Clichy and so on can play well (if not better) in positions other than the ones assigned to them there. I also noticed that in United's second string midfield they don't have a single left sided midfielder there, and the four that aren't terribly right-sided players either.

Finally, is this comparison for last-man-back rules football?

PHB

Man Utd don't have a second left winger
Fletcher can push over there if asked

LegacyUser

Oh no he can not. Fletcher is average in the middle and **** on either side of the wing. It is true. From a Man Utd fan. We have serious trouble if Giggs is injured. We do not have an injection of pace on the left. Kieran Richards = Crap. Bellion = Utter ****. We have no replacement for the left. It is a huge problem, nobody else seems to think so. If you think pushing Scholes or Flethcer out there is gonna help, it will not.

smemon

what about fortune?! he does a decent job as cover and tracks back aswell as goes forward. i'd like to see him start more regularly.

talla

Fortune is an average winger but a liability at left back. I always fear the worst when I seem him on the team sheet. I will say one thing about him though, I've seen him play as the holding midfielder on 2 or 3 occasions and hes played very well there.

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

Man Utd don't have a second left winger
Fletcher can push over there if asked

so can Roy Carroll but only Houlier would put him there .

Fletcher is by no means a winger on either side anyway , he's just a central midfielder/right midfielder .

LegacyUser

And he is only semi decent in the middle. He has yet to impress me.