Clonmel-Dublin Direct Rail Service 2007

P11 Comms

what is the point of rebuilding the Cahir viaduct in order to restore a failed passenger service?

http://www.platform11.org/clon_dub_direct.html

BrianD

Is the line not used for freight as well?

I though P11 would find it agreeable to have the line intact rather than closed.

John R

Your suggestion that the Limerick - Waterford service should be abandoned (with a connecting bus?? service Clonmel - Waterford) is stupid. This route has not been given a chance, it needs a proper useable fast service with modern railcars to attract passengers. There is at least as much potential in a commuter service from the towns of Tipperary, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir to both Waterford and Limerick as there is to Dublin, all three should be provided.

vinnyfitz

I presume what you have in mind is a feeder train running from Clonmel to rendezvous with Dub-Cork or Dub Limerick trains?

Did the old service not do this in practice? (Genuine question)

What do the people of Clonmel think of your proposal? It is not clear to what extent you have consulted them or are reflecting their views.

parsi

"Every day, dozens of people living and working in Clonmel drive to Kilkenny and Thurles " (source http://www.platform11.org/clon_dub_direct.html )

Dozens, so we'll build a loop at the Junction and lay welded rail to servce those dozens and ignore those other dozens who travel from our ferry ports to the Midwest ?

The Limerick - Rosslare service could be made more viable with - better equipment, shorter dwell times at the junction and more frequent services. There is good demand for this service esp with college students etc going to/from Limerick.

Yes lets have a good Clonmel service but let it be a connection at the Junction or on a direct ex Waterford (or Rosslare train).

Maybe we should be thinking about a rail network that doesn't radiate from Dublin but has more of a mesh topology using existing infrastructure

netwhizkid

Originally posted by parsi
Maybe we should be thinking about a rail network that doesn't radiate from Dublin but has more of a mesh topology using existing infrastructure

Yes quite right, all trains main aim should not be getting passengers to dublin, but to the west, the south, and the east, the north of course has practically no railways, with the exception of the lines to belfast and derry.

i am flabergasted ! to hear that platform 11 the voice of irish commuters, is actually in favour if closing a railway line. Ireland many years ago had possibly one of the best railways systems in Europe, until the 1960's when cie and the government rather than modernising and improving the fleet and services choose the easy cheapo option and closed nearly all the railways. If that investment had been put in that time, ireland today would have an excellent public transport system a low reliabilty on cars and substancially lower co2 emmisions.

The Railway network before the drastic cuts.



The Railway as it is today, not a pretty picture in comparision.



Maybe someday the government will re-open some of those forgotten lines, not only would the possibily for commuters and freight be huge but the Tourism potential could be out of this world.

Regards netwhizkid

jd

Originally posted by parsi
The Limerick - Rosslare service could be made more viable with - better equipment, shorter dwell times at the junction and more frequent services. There is good demand for this service esp with college students etc going to/from Limerick.

[/B]

I think when rail cars are introduced, the service eastwards from waterford should run to Wexford town (if not Enniscorthy), rather than Rosslare Harbour. It would be somewhat more viable.

Victor

Originally posted by jd
I think when rail cars are introduced, the service eastwards from waterford should run to Wexford town (if not Enniscorthy), rather than Rosslare Harbour. It would be somewhat more viable.

Why not both? Galway-Athenry-Ennis-Limerick-Clonmel-Waterford-Wexford-Rosslare or Galway-Athenry-Ennis-Limerick-Clonmel-Waterford-Rosslare-Wexford (seems better)

netwhizkid, that first map isn't absolutely complete, it does seem to be missing bits and pieces, especially narrow gauge stuff

jd

Originally posted by Victor
Why not both? Galway-Athenry-Ennis-Limerick-Clonmel-Waterford-Wexford-Rosslare or Galway-Athenry-Ennis-Limerick-Clonmel-Waterford-Rosslare-Wexford (seems better)

Because it adds to much to journey time compared to bus/car.

John R

Even without going to Rosslare Harbour, the journey time Waterford - Wexford would be about 1h30 while it is 1hour by bus. 90% of the current traffic between Rosslare and Waterford is commuter traffic for the south Wexford area, the train is much quicker than road because it goes across the Barrow estuary where the road crosses at New Ross.

netwhizkid

Originally posted by Victor
netwhizkid, that first map isn't absolutely complete, it does seem to be missing bits and pieces, especially narrow gauge stuff

it's the best i could find. i'll try for a better one later, but still without the missing bits it was still a great network, and the missing bits would have made it even better.

Regards netwhizkid

Sarsfield

Limerick and Waterford are two of the countrys main urban centres. Both centres are only going to grow. As are the main towns along the railway line.

A good Limerick-Waterford service will also offer connections to Dublin at both Limerick Junction and Waterford.

This is better for the good people of Clonmel as it gives them rail access to Dublin, Cork, Limerick, and Waterford with a maximum of one change.

A reasonably frequent "cross-country" service (connecting to all the major centres) will beat a once-a-day train to Dublin in terms of brand image.

The idea is deeply flawed and should be reviewed as a matter of urgency if P11 is to maintain any credibility.

John R

The rail network might have been great in the amount of lines but the services were a different matter. Lines on a map are not an indicator of how good the system operated. It is very easy to look back now and criticise the decisions made but the realities are that postwar the entire network both infrastructure and rolling stock were falling apart and Ireland was not exactly rolling in cash. In 1948 the average age of locomotives in service was 51 years.
There are many reasons why the network was slashed from it's peak in the 1920s but mainly it was that they became unprofitable with the rise in road transport. The widespread closures had begun long before CIE came into being.
There are plenty of books on the subject if you want to read up on it

jd

Originally posted by John R
Even without going to Rosslare Harbour, the journey time Waterford - Wexford would be about 1h30 while it is 1hour by bus. 90% of the current traffic between Rosslare and Waterford is commuter traffic for the south Wexford area, the train is much quicker than road because it goes across the Barrow estuary where the road crosses at New Ross.

I'm not 100% sure , but I think railcars may be able to travel more quickly because of the lower axle loading.

Crossley

i am flabergasted ! to hear that platform 11 the voice of irish commuters, is actually in favour if closing a railway line.

Since when is a group with two and a half members, run on lines the KGB would be proud of, "the voice of Irish commuters"?. P11's raison d'etre seems to be the creation of controversy and self publicity. It is very strange for a so called "railway lobby" to be firstly lobbying that the possibility of reopening lines in the west not even be given consideration and now to be lobbying for the further retrenchment of an already much rationalised system. The idea that "the discontinuation of the uneconomical and little used Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare service essentially creates a funding mechanism" is just laughable. What next, the singling of the Cork mainline to pay for new rolling stock?

As regards, LJ - WD, there has been zero marketing of the line to date and many locals are unaware that it's open for passenger traffic (ignore the viaduct closure for the moment) with most of the stations having a closed and almost derelict appearance to the public. There will be excellent opportunities for a proper connection with Dublin services from 2006 when IE introduce hourly Dublin - Cork services. What is needed is lobbying for a proper useful timetable to connect with these trains and a local marketing campaign promoting same. As regards direct services, isn't P11 the same "organisation" that maintains that good interconnections were key to rail development ? It states on its website that "People in every other country in Europe and in many US/Australian cities understand the concept of changing from one service to the next." Not the people of Clonmel it seems.

P11 Comms

Steady on there Crossley, you are getting all hot under your anorak. You are not on Irish Railway News now surrounded by British trainspotters who are demanding that Irish Taxpayers money be used to fund their Ballykissangel version of an Irish rail network so they can come over once and year and get all excited chasing beet trains through Thurles.

Without putting out a press release on this matter, Platform11 got Page 2 in the Times today and I have been on the radio non-stop doing interviews and current events programmes from Waterford to Limerick and I am doing more tomorrow - that's the buzz that has been generated by a direct Dublin service.

On TippFM the possibility of a direct non-stopping Clonmel-Dublin story was the top news story all day. There is a group now forming in Clonmel to lobby for this at a local level. When was the last time you heard about anybody in Clonmel being excited about railways in their town? When was the last time the locals in Clonmel formed a group to demand better connections at Limerick Junction? Yesterday they were not interested in rail services to their town, today they are. The only difference is that there was a chance of a direct rail service to Dublin being offered to them via Platform11's proposal compared to decades of timetable tinkering which meant nothing as nobody in Clonmel was interested.

If we had of issued a press release about better connections at Limerick Junction, nobody in Clonmel would have given a damn.

Also, this tinkering with timetables won't save a line destined for closure - this is the main point people need to really consider here (although I understand that for train spotters such as Crossley), that line is hanging by a thread and the 3 services a day is pure window dressing. Little more than painting over the cracks in the wall telling you the house foundations are crumbling. No use having better connections if the track is knackered and there is no money to pay for it, and no hope of the money because they service attracts hardly any passengers.

Get one section of the route busy/upgraded with a service people want and you have something to build on.

One more thing which people should be aware of and that is that there is no public desire for regional rail in Ireland. There is a real and growing market for Dublin-bound Inter-City and Commuter rail services but little else. Irish people do not care about either railfreight or a rural or regional branch lines and they are put off by having to change trains. So dealing with all the mainly cultural factors mentioned here, Platform11 has to work around this rail apathy and find projects that will work and can be delivered. Better conections at Limerick Juction won't do anything to improve rail usage in Clonmel and they never will. Sad, but true and this is not the fault of Platform11.

Victor

O_o notebooks at dawn.

Behave!

Crossley

You are not on Irish Railway News now surrounded by British trainspotters who are demanding that Irish Taxpayers money be used to fund their Ballykissangel version of an Irish rail network so they can come over once and year and get all excited chasing beet trains through Thurles.

I am neither British nor a trainspotter. And what's with the constant anti-Brit vibe. Is P11 affialated to Sinn Fein ?

parsi

Originally posted by P11 Comms

One more thing which people should be aware of and that is that there is no public desire for regional rail in Ireland. There is a real and growing market for Dublin-bound Inter-City and Commuter rail services but little else. Irish people do not care about either railfreight or a rural or regional branch lines and they are put off by having to change trains.

Unless of course it is Cork people who pressured for years to have the Cobh line upgraded and who have finally succeeded (after concerted efforts by locals, councils and developers) in getting the Midleton regional rail line back up.

btw I think that any self-publicising organisation should refrain from loading messages with derogatory comments such as "British trainspotters, Ballykissangel view.." etc. If your arguments are strongthey should be able to stand up without the need to personalise them ...

enterprise

OK,

The P11 argument seems to be an interesting proposal. For the national rail lobby group how many members have you got? I mite be interested in joining as I belive Ireland needs an effective lobby group.


Enterprise
NCC-1701.

KC61

To be honest there is ample scope for pleasing everyone with this line.

The timetable has been unchanged for as long as I can recall and as such has never been drafted in such a way as to encourage the travelling public to use the service. Trains have been timetabled at absolutely pointless times which revolved around when ferries docked in Rosslare.

The line should be viewed in two distinct sections: Limerick - Waterford and Waterford-Rosslare.

The opportunity now exists to offer a much improved service (using only one additional arrow set) between Limerick and Waterford, offering meaningful connections at Limerick Junction. I would envisage a four-train a day service between Limerick and Waterford with connections to/from Dublin and Cork at Limerick Junction. With the advent of the hourly Dublin-Cork express service in December 2005 this will be easy as trains in both directions will pass at/near the Junction to/from Dublin.

A journey time of 2 hours 30 mins is currently feasible between Dublin and Clonmel if trains connected into the early morning Cork/Dublin service and the 1700 Dublin/Cork train.

The need for a direct train is redundant, due to the impending introduction of the Dublin-Cork expresses.

The four trains per day would satisfy the needs of those travelling between the two cities of Limerick and Waterford and those travelling elsewhere.

In other words, give the line a fighting chance to prove itself before condemning it out of hand.

Waterford-Rosslare is a commuter route and shall remain so, but there remains some scope for additional services during the day.