Duct Tape & String

dahamsta

Paul's presentation is worth reading for this slide alone, which in all honesty shocked even me. Paul tells us that he didn't spend a month looking around for the worst possible example of Eircom's shoddy network, he went out the day before the presentation and took those photos. I've started a new thread on this because if IrelandOffline does go ahead as a general comms group, this is something that is going to have to be addressed.

Obviously the topic came up at the AGM, in fact it came up more than once. Some people are of the opinion that, when you get right down to it, Eircom is an 800lb monster; that we have absolutely no chance of beating them on this; that Wireless Good, Fixed Line Bad. They may be right, and I really don't want to get into an argument about it. What I do want to say though, is that I think it's a bad idea to simply let it drop, for the simple reason that fixed lines aren't going away in a hurry, and somebody has to make an effort to get them to spend some money on the network. Not gazillions, but how about millions? How about the €500m they took out of the company last year, for example?

Damien has some ideas on how we could proceed on this. Politically, I agree with Yoda to a degree, in that it's going to be very hard to bring direct political pressure to bear on a so-called free market Government on this subject. But of course direct political lobbying is only one method of bringing pressure to bear. Indirect activism is another, and we all know I'm big time in favour of that.

To kick off the ideas though, I think it would be great if we could get loads of the 2000 IrelandOffline members out there on the streets and down country lanes taking photos of Eircom's network. We could build up a nice little album for presentation to everyone involved, and in fact Damien has some other ideas for the photos that I like a lot. I'll let him present them though.

Anyway, I'd be interested in your opinions in this.

adam

BrianD

To be perfectly honest, when I saw the photo's I said "so what". This type of thing I'm sure can be found in a number of locations and probably on every network in the world.

I not that both locations seem to be in rural areas possibly running up to a one off house in the middle of nowhere. Oddly the debate is not extending to why I should subsidise a telephone service to someone who chooses to live in the middle of now where. Oddly enough one off dwellers expect their phone line, roadway etc. to be maintained to the same standards as those who live in sustainable developments. With our poor policy in relation to development, spatial plan it is no wonder we have such shoddy networks. Who can afford to keep them maintained?

Perhaps we should look at higher service charges for people who decide to live in such environments?

dahamsta

Originally posted by BrianD
I not that both locations

If you had looked at the photos in any great detail, you would have seen that it's one location. Look again. If that was the line to your house, would you be satisfied? It's nowhere near me and I find it completely unacceptable; but then I'm a great believer in considerate, supportive society. OMFG, I must be a Communist! :rolleyes:

However that's just one location. Maybe it's the only one. It'd be nice to find out, and Eircom sure aren't going to tell us the truth...

adam

Ronan|Raven

I will get the camera out and go photo some of the lines around here. Some are as bad as the ones in that picture. Actually coming home from the meeting on saturday lookign at some poles along the way, it seems a high percentage like this.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by BrianD
To be perfectly honest, when I saw the photo's I said "so what". This type of thing I'm sure can be found in a number of locations and probably on every network in the world.

Really? Go find me a similar photograph from BT's or DT's network. I'll be here.

I not that both locations seem to be in rural areas possibly running up to a one off house in the middle of nowhere. Oddly the debate is not extending to why I should subsidise a telephone service to someone who chooses to live in the middle of now where. Oddly enough one off dwellers expect their phone line, roadway etc. to be maintained to the same standards as those who live in sustainable developments.

As Adam has pointed out, it's one location. What he didn't point out, probably because I didn't tell him, is that that line is on the main road from Westport to Louisburgh. What I did mention at the meeting was that my biggest problem was not finding lines like this, but deciding which of the many examples I could find would best illustrate the problem.

I'm just sorry I didn't have my camera on Inishturk, to photograph the phone lines that are running along the ditches - they didn't even bother to install poles.

With our poor policy in relation to development, spatial plan it is no wonder we have such shoddy networks. Who can afford to keep them maintained?

The ESB can. In all my travels around the country, I have not seen a single example of an electricity line in this sort of condition. In fact, much of rural Ireland is having its electricity transmission infrastructure completely overhauled as we speak.

Perhaps we should look at higher service charges for people who decide to live in such environments?

In "such environments" as just outside Westport? What a caring society you would have us live in.

damien

Originally posted by BrianD
To be perfectly honest, when I saw the photo's I said "so what". This type of thing I'm sure can be found in a number of locations and probably on every network in the world.

It probably can, but with the insulting USO and a regulator and government who is happy to let Eircom charge us a fortune for line rental and not use this money to keep the copper in good condition, you should be less forgiving.

You should in fact be angry. Remember it's not like they are keeping the city network in good nick. It's only a matter of time before you see this, in fact it's happening already but it's more than likely hidden down ducting. I'll put money down that we might see the same pictures in city locations. As I said ducting might hide a lot of it but I have seen those joins in city locations myself.

Another thing, do you think the 1 million line failures last year were all from the lines in Paul's pictures ? City, country, Eircom is an equal opportunities blood sucking leech.


Oddly the debate is not extending to why I should subsidise a telephone service to someone who chooses to live in the middle of now where.

But you are not subsidising some rural phone lines. You are subsidisng the massive loans Eircom is paying back as well as the shareholder dividends.

With our poor policy in relation to development, spatial plan it is no wonder we have such shoddy networks. Who can afford to keep them maintained?

Nothing to do with the spatial plan and everything to do with the Forrest Gump regulator who is allowing Eircom to suck the life out of this country by feeding on our money and leaving nothing by a brittle empty shell of a network.

Perhaps we should look at higher service charges for people who decide to live in such environments?

There's no need for that. That argument is not necessary. Freedom to associate and freedom of movement is what this country guarantees us. It is discriminatory to make someone pay more for the same service just because of their location.

We are all subsidising each other in some way or other. Via car tax, tax on tobacco, paye etc. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if you had to pay more for electricity in the city just because the power station is in a rural location.

MarVeL

While I can to some extent see that we cannot expect remote phone lines to be as well maintained as the more easily accessible urban and suburban lines I do feel that the photos were of a wholly unacceptable installation, especially hne you consider that this is what the line rental is supposed to cover. Even if this was an isolated example, and I know for a fact that it is by no means such, and if comparable shots could be shown from other networks I would question why the line was in this state when Eircom are charging one of the highest line rentals in the world.

Of course then you read the annual reports and it is obvious why. I wonder how many of the new investors saw shots like this of the high tech infrastructure they were buying.

oscarBravo

I think this point bears repeating: this is not a remote location, or a line to a one-off house. This is the line from Westport to Murrisk, and presumably on to Louisburgh.

gandalf

This might be the beginning of an interesting project.

I think anyone who has access to a digital camera and is out and about should take shots of any "creative" wiring that they come across and maybe we could set up a bandits gallery for the Ireland Offline website. It could be something you could show rural councillors and TD's, afterall a picture says more than a thousand words.

Imagine how one of these chaps would react after you tell them that all the lovely broadband fibre thats running through their towns and countryside will still have to be delivered to premises and homes in most cases via sub standard (and I even think that is not a strong enough word for what was in those pictures linked above!) cable from Eircom.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by gandalf
Imagine how one of these (councillors/TD's) would react after you tell them that all the lovely broadband fibre thats running through their towns and countryside will still have to be delivered to premises and homes in most cases via sub standard ... what was in those pictures linked above...cable from Eircom.

That's a great idea, Gandalf, very few of these people really understand what broadband is and that could waken them up.

I also think this is something that if a portfolio were put together from various locations throughout the country, this could also well make a nice media story - "Irelands Broadband Potholes"

dahamsta

Originally posted by MarVeL
especially hne you consider that this is what the line rental is supposed to cover

Nail. Head.

damien

Originally posted by dahamsta

Damien has some ideas on how we could proceed on this. ... in fact Damien has some other ideas for the photos that I like a lot. I'll let him present them though.

To follow up on what Adam said I was thinking of the idea of a postcard campaign. Everyone create their own postcard with one of those lovely pictures of the glorious Eircom network, have a small note of complaint to the Minister on it (mention the USO and line rental) and sign it, forward it on to us and we'll personally deliver it along with hopefully a few thousand more to the Minister. We'll bring along a few people from the press to be there too.

We'll also stick up every photo we get on a gallery of shame.

It might be nice to create a nice url to redirect to it. IrishPhoneNetwork.com or something.

If anyone else has suggestions please add them here.

And start sending in more photos !

damien

Originally posted by oscarBravo
I think this point bears repeating: this is not a remote location, or a line to a one-off house. This is the line from Westport to Murrisk, and presumably on to Louisburgh.

Paul, any guesses how many people that piece of wet string serves ?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by damien.m
Paul, any guesses how many people that piece of wet string serves ?

Let me do some homework on that.

MarVeL

At the moment I am working within spitting distance (I've checked) of Eircoms HQ. At lunchtime I did a bit of a wander around and spotted wiring that came close to rivalling the knitting above. Tomorrow I think I'll bring a camera.

Moriarty

The debate about city dwellers subidising country dwellers is totally outside even the loosest of Ireland Offlines intrests. If you want to continue the debate, take it to humanities BrianD.


Edit: All that stuff split off into a new thread in humanities. If you want to continue, go there.

damien

*bump*

So, anyone got pics of DACs / line splitters / shoddy cabling etc

We're still collecting these.

Mr_Man

This is one of the reasons why I can't get BB, the quality is low because I needed to reduce the picture size to get around the 100k limit.

M.

Mr_Man

This also looks like some kind of splitter, it is less than 50 yards from the first picture above. If it is not a splitter I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know what its purpsoe is.

Thanks

M.

eth0_

dahamsta wrote:

Paul's presentation is worth reading for this slide alone, which in all honesty shocked even me.

Is his site being served off a 28.8 modem?

cgarvey

eth0_ wrote:

Is his site being served off a 28.8 modem?

Its terrible alright .. so it seems to be running off a escape.websitewelcome.com. WebSiteWelcome.com has no site, and is privately/proxy registered, but the IP spaced belongs to ThePlanet. Just now, I'm getting 50%+ packet loss at last hop.

Back on topic.. armed with a camera I went to 2 locations near my homeplace in Clare where I knew of dodgy eircom line work (not unlike the photos in the presnentation), but they've been fixed, god dammit!!! (Of course its done nothing to improve our 9.6-12Kbps dial up connection)

.cg

oscarBravo

eth0_ wrote:

Is his site being served off a 28.8 modem?

Aw, be nice folks - the site is being generously hosted as an act of charity on someone else's webspace. As I've said before, to say that KCN is running on a shoestring would imply that we can afford shoes!

-Toppy-

I must admit when I opened up those two pics from the presentation I laffed soo much, I dont think I have ever seen anything that bad ever, but I will definately keep my eye out.
I hope that field isnt sold soon if some pulls down the For sale sign the entire network might go down!
-Toppy-