New interim chair, where now for IrelandOffline?

dahamsta

Yes, it's me. No, I have no idea why someone didn't tell you last night.

Dave and Damien have already given you a few details, but the crux of it is that some of the people that turned up yesterday didn't feel it was appropriate to disband IrelandOffline at this time, and Martin Harran's proposal (thank you Martin) was put to the meeting by De Rebel. Several people volunteered as committee members in the interim, I volunteered as chair in the interim (you may not be surprised, but I bloody well was), and given that the proposal was passed by a large majority.

To be clear though, this is an interim committee, it will only last until the EGM is held sometime in September, at which time a decision will be taken on how to go forward. If we decide to go ahead, the interim committee will be dissolved and a new one formed; and of course if any of the interim committee members wish to continue, I can't see that being a problem. If we decide not to go ahead, well, IrelandOffline will be dissolved.

Speaking personally, I would be very disappointed to see that happen. But I can't, and won't, make that decision for you. It's up to you, if you want to see IrelandOffline continue, you have to say so; if you want IrelandOffline to change, you have to tell us what you want changed; if you have an idea for something IrelandOffline should do, you have to suggest it; if you want to get involved, you have to volunteer, either here or to me via email (adam AT beecher DOT net).

Here's my opinion, and it is only my opinion. I'm in favour of option two in the poll; I think IrelandOffline should expand it's remit. I think that there's plenty of room in Ireland for a general communications lobbying and self-support group, particularly a non-partisan "unofficial" group. In fact I think Ireland needs an organisation like this more than ever, and if anyone is geared up to do that, it's IrelandOffline. The group has the name, the contacts, and the resources to pull it off.

The last item there, the resources, would be you. IrelandOffline is already a dedicated, intelligent, and resourceful self-support group, as this forum and the broadband forum prove every day; however that's never really been embraced "officially" by the committee. Quite the opposite in fact, IrelandOffline distanced itself from the forum quite some time ago - I believe I supported the decision in fact - and if anything it's grown even further away from it in the last couple of years.

I'd like to see that changed, I'd like to see more work done on the ground, and I'd like to see a lot more noisemaking and grassroots activism. We can do grassroots in Ireland when we want to, quite possibly better than anyone else in the world. IrelandOffline itself has had it's moments in that regard, and Irish Citizens for Trustworthy eVoting is a poster child for it. It would be great if we could steal the crown back from them and get the issues that our members have to deal with back into the limelight; and into the craw of the telcos and other abusers.

But we're not going to do that with a small committee, and we're not going to do it if the grassroots - again, that would be you - don't stand up and make some noise. The committee can help organise things if there are enough people on it to cover the work, but that means people have to offer themselves up for the cause and donate some real time -- not fun forum posting time, but work time. And the members are going to have to get up off their comfy office chairs and do some work too, they're going to need to self-organise and, as I said, make some noise.

But let's be honest, you know all that, it's not as if I haven't said all this before. And when you get right down to it, what I say means nothing. I'm an interim chairman, I'm a nobody. I'm here to organise the EGM in September (suggestions for dates are welcome by the way), to make sure the organisation itself doesn't fall apart in the meantime, and to chair the "meetings" we'll have here over the next couple of months. A meeting's no good if people don't turn up or speak up, so now it's over to you. Speak up.

Before I go, a little business:

Could the members of the outgoing committee please pass on the password(s) for the mailing lists, and any documents, email, etc, that we would need to keep the organisation going please? In particular could I get the list of people that attended the AGM, the list of people on the interim committee, the notes/minutes for the AGM, and of course the contact list(s).

Finally, here's the obligatory thanks and stuff:

A huge thanks to everyone that showed up, I think there was nearly 25 people there and although that doesn't sound like a lot, it's a lot more than people generally expect at an IrelandOffline meeting. (That being said, even more will have to turn up next time.) Thanks to Christian and Paul for their presentations, Elana for bossing people around so professionally, and the people that spoke up at the meeting for having the cohones to do it. And thanks of course to the outgoing committee for the work they've done.

And on a personal note, thanks to OHP for buying the pint he promised me, and another one too; and De Rebel for the lovely munch after the AGM, which went above and beyond the call of duty. If I've forgotten anyone, my apologies, it was a long old day.

Over to you guys. Don't bother welcoming me or any of that guff, just get posting your thoughts on the future of IrelandOffline please.

Cheers,
adam

iwb

Ok then. Let me be the first here to say that I am both surprised and delighted at the outcome of the meeting. I would have liked to be there.
While I think it's great that option b is at least considered a possibility, I really want to voice my concerns about the viability of such an organisation. There are an incredible number of issues to deal with now. Far more than any organisation can take on in a voluntary capacity. I would go so far as to say that even a professional organisation would have to be well run and well funded to do a good job of it all.
Basically what is on the table is the possibility of a grassroots telecoms lobby group. It would brobably be good to start a list of the issues and areas that would need to be addressed by this group. Here are a few that come to mind quickly.

Line quality including pair gain and general upkeep.
Educating the masses about broadband - A huge area in itself.
Call costs for dialup users, both for voice and internet.
General broadband issues like contention ratios, caps and quality.
More specific stuff like eircom taking advantage of its market position. We have all heard the stories of newly enabled exchanges with no available ports for resellers.
Unbundling.
Reasonable cost backhaul for the smaller ISP.
Group broadband scheme issues - Also a huge area in itself.
Sub dividing the digital divide - areas within areas where there are inequities, for example, by City, county or region. It isn't as simple any more as Dublin has it and the rest don't.
MAN's and MSE. Now that it has been appointed and the first 20 are complete, we would like to see some action. Someone needs to represent Joe Public and find out what will be on offer and continue the dialogue with the MSE.
The list goes on but I think it should be developed properly and the areas chosen and prioritised. It really is a mammoth task.
This may seem like a negative post but I would rather it be seen as pragmatic. If, in the knowledge of all the work that lies ahead, the organisation is to continue, then some forward motion will most likely happen.
One thing that should be done for sure is to divide the organisation into geographical areas with a local structure in each. Broadly speaking, the issues of most urgency are different in different areas and this would simplify the task of prioritisation along with introducing many other practical efficiencies. I know it brings its complications too in management of the overall organisation but on balance, it would work better.

bealtine

I too favour option 2 in the poll.

How to make this (option 2) a reality is a somewhat different matter.


One of my pet peeves is accountibilty. For instance if a line fails the dsl test the reaon should be made available and not some vacant crap about distance, this
is a catch all bs option and far too easy to cop out on.

So therefore line quality and the rotten (string and chewing gum) network that
is eircom needs to be highlighted.

The poor victims of eircom profiteering errr inability to patch up the lines.

And while I am on this point the USO (functional internet access) needs to be clarified and addressed very soon or the network will rot even more...

I agree that the MAN islands need to be joined up making them actually useful:)
and most of the other points.

As a small voluntary group, we need to focus on points where we can score BIG hits
first and then move to the more contentious issues.

I'm all in favour of "direct action" where practical to highlight these issues. I feel a huge opportunity passed us by with the EU presidency. We could have highlighted the crappy state of the network and embarrased out govt and eircom in the eyes of the world...

FYI thats

jwt

Firstly I am putting my hand up as one of the "volunteers" for the committee.

It's up to you, if you want to see IrelandOffline continue, you have to say so; if you want IrelandOffline to change, you have to tell us what you want changed; if you have an idea for something IrelandOffline should do, you have to suggest it; if you want to get involved, you have to volunteer, either here or to me via email

Adam

AND

It would brobably be good to start a list of the issues and areas that would need to be addressed by this group. Here are a few that come to mind quickly.

iwb

I think these two point are critical to the future of IrelandOffline.

Before the EGM we need to have a defined list of areas to be addressed.
Iwb has started the ball rolling with the beginnings of a list of possible areas.

As a member of the interim committee I feel that we will best serve IrelandOffline in the next 8-9 weeks by colating all the requests, desires and wants of members and try to present a general to do list which can be debated and argued until we have reduced it to a list that can be handled in the EGM.

At that point the members themselves will be able to dictate to ireland Offline what they require of the committee and of the organisation.

After all the committee is supposed to act on behalf of the members not the otherway around.

Mid September is the rough date set for the EGM. Perhaps a poll to decide the exact date would allow members to pick a date suitable to the majority of people. For those of us whom the date will be inconvienient, we must make an effort to attend regardless.

If members cannot attend for legitimate reasons then they can make their views known here or use other members to act as proxies.

I for one will have little sympathy for complaints about the results of the EGM from members who don't either attend or do not make their views known.

"Speak now or forever hold your peace" is the expression that sums up the next 8-9 weeks.

damien

Originally posted by jwt

"Speak now or forever hold your peace" is the expression that sums up the next 8-9 weeks.

Thats it's folks, follow the lead of iwb, but first to quote Paul from another thread:

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Of the (at my last count) 77 people who voted that the organisation should continue, the really telling figure will be just how many show up at the EGM, and how many will be prepared to put in the work required to achieve results.

Paul's quite correct. We will not achieve any goals with limited numbers. The committee represents the members but that does not mean we do all the work. We will work our collective asses off but the members will also need to do so.

Paul and Christian (xian) have done some extraordinary work and we really really really really are not aware of it. These guys killed themselves day in and day out and the Group Data Scheme is the result and it will make waves in the near future. Knockmore is the start. I'd encourage everyone to see the setup of Knockmore and to try and grab a copies of the presentations from Christian and Paul.

Group Data Schemes will also hopefully make the people realise once more that they have the power. Community owned networks will thrive and once the people realise they can take control of their net connection I'm sure realise they can start doing the same in other aspects of their lives. More and more power will be put back in the hands of the people and god help bullshítting politicians and big corporates.

So back to the point people, we need people to volunteer to help and give their time to IOFFL and to do their best to come along to the EGM in mid(ish) September.

So if you are going to make suggestions like iwb I would also like you to state you will do your best to make it to the EGM if you have the ability (we'll hammer out where and whens soon) and to also right here right now state how many hours you can commit to IOFFL as it really is not going to work unless you help out.

So, in summary, make your suggestions as to what IOFFL should work on, whether you are going to come to the EGM and how many hours per week or month you can offer IOFFL as well as any other resources you can offer.

Even an hour will make a difference to IOFFL.

damien

I posted this a few months ago about what I was hoping IOFFL could campaign for:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149232

I think I explained it better than I ever could :

There are many other things which I feel should be covered by IOFFL such as:

1) The USO from Hell
This USO allows Eircom to tell anyone to take a hike if they want any kind of net access. Zero k is not Functional Internet Access. With the recent news that the Eircom Network is falling apart the referencing of that part of the USo is going to become more and more common to anyone that complains. Heres a nasty statistic: 1 Million line failure reports last year.

2) A limp, waste of a Communications Regulator
This is the regulator that allowed Eircom to massively increase our line rental, split our lines and not invest in their network but channel all money out of the company and into some rich guys pockets.

Communication by both phone and internet is as crucial as water and electricity. Instead we may find ourselves without this if Eircom is allowed to let their network rot.

3) The Government/Politicos needing more education on what we the people want.
Ok, the government made some inroads, and Dermot was looking so well for a while there but then he seemed to turn into an Eircom apologist. We're still falling behind compared to other countries progress. The Gov is shoveling money into projects but where are they going to go if they are mismanaged. Politicians need to know what they need to be doing. Hardly any of them is a Telco expert and understands the Irish perspective. They need to be shown.

4) Educating the general population.
Probably the hardest thing to do. Get them to know their rights and to cause a fuss with their TDs, Councillors and anyone else that they can vote out. The line-rental hike would have been a great launchpad for getting people to realise how much they are being messed about with.

5) Mobilising the memberbase. I always go on about it but I strongly believe that the grassroots can make huge impacts. Everyone is referencing the Howard Dean campaign when it comes to grassroots and organising but its one that worked. It might not have got the guy a nomination but it has brought a lot of people out of the woodwork and motivated many people to take a stand.

viking

I'm also putting my hand up as being on the interim committee.

As others have done so already, I won't go into the details about the need for establishing a new set of objectives. What I will stress is the importance of members putting forward their thoughts on what IrelandOffline should focus on.

Martin's proposal was a sensible one and I am glad that the decision was taken to form an interim committee and hold an EGM in September which will decide the future of IrelandOffline.

BTW, enjoyed meeting everyone at the AGM.

Gareth

Slutmonkey57b

One repetetive point we always seem to harp on is the total lack of technical expertise displayed by Ireland's "technical" journalists. Time and time again the Government, Eircom, and other players get away with releasing total bull into the public domain that gets reprinted - in bold type - by the newspapers. I don't think this is necessarily lack of interest on the part of editors, since they'll print pages and pages of rubbish just to fill space, but a lack of input from the journalists.

IoffL I think should have a focus on providing factual disseminations to the papers whenever crap like the USO, fibre rings etc gets spouted by eircom/comreg/government. I don't think either that this is necessarily a big overhead -eircomtribunal and comwreck are examples of sites that have effectively dispelled a lot of lies that get spouted. Equally, bull-ridden press releases are quickly demolished here on boards.

We have a lot of technical expertise on board here - much of it that is "anonymous" in the sense that people who work in the industry or with the equipment are not going to go on the record themselves but will post the relevant factual information for the rest of us to know. How difficult would it be for us to leverage that information and rebuttal into directing the tech journalism sector better?

The line rental fiasco was I think a great example of where IoffL got drowned out by bull - The only response we had really was "yes, terrible, how about those fiddly "community WANs then" - truthful, but not invective enough. A great opportunity to drag them through the mud when the media were obsessed with little else was wasted I think.

damien

Slutmonkey57b are you going to come to the EGM. Are you willing to donate time to IrelandOffline ?

Slutmonkey57b

If someone has a loan of a rifle, I'm more than willing to volunteer for "cackling madman at the top floor opposite eircom HQ".

Dangger

(mod dudes - move this if you wish - I wasn't quite sure it it belongs in the AGM or disband thread. It's been so long!)

Ireland Offline - where to from here?

It was great to see so many people voice their opinion about the recently proposed argument to disband Ireland Offline and to see the ever disgruntled Irish Internet user stand up once more to be counted. After all it’s how we got started the first time around – something we felt we needed was taken away with little consultation. I for one am happy to see a stay of execution for Ireland Offline, so we can discuss and debate what proposals people have for a continued lobby group to represent Internet users in Ireland.

The motion to disband was put forward in the belief that Ireland Offline was no longer an effective voice in the political spectrum, and this may be one of the indications as to what must be corrected if it is to continue.

It must not be forgotten that as a small group of individuals the committee of Ireland Offline were granted access to decision makers in government departments, to people with the responsibility of shaping Ireland’s telecommunications policy, and to the body empowered to regulate the Irish telecom’s market. Importantly it was also granted much time with most of the service providers in the marketplace today, and made representations to the European Commission on two separate occasions in Brussels to get some light shone on our spot from Brussels, which ruffled a few feathers.

It also has a hugely important asset in it’s members. With almost two thousand registered members Ireland Offline was well placed to get feedback on issues, and at times examples of bufoonary in service provision to highlight them and at times to win small yet important victories for the people in question. Such a member base was a great weight with which to lean in on various parties.

But as an organisation it was always a balancing act to inform and represent users at varying levels and to act in a professional manner whilst speaking at the various events we were often invited to address, and behind the closed doors of government offices be it a Dáil hearing, a curious politician’s office or the EU Information Society headquarters. Shock tactics including idiotic threats from members often created issues that required diplomacy to mend a few fences but for the most part I feel that this close political connection enabled it to move things on.

Ireland Offline needs to get reconnected on many levels if it is to continue.

Firstly on a membership micro level, the arrival of various forms of broadband into urban areas and the continued lack of service in some rural and not so rural areas requires a greater focus on more local representation. When we started it was simple. Nobody had flat rate ANYWHERE in Ireland, and it was simply ludicrous. Today however the message is more geographically complex. One size no longer fits all, and the message will have to be localised as never before yet aggregated and conveyed right to the top as before with a greater emphasis on the have-nots amongst the haves.

On a political level Ireland Offline should take the time at this juncture to explore the various invitations it has been extended over its short lifetime and reassess them. For a start ComReg has been keen for some time to utilise Ireland Offline’s connection to such a cross section of users and in hearings with telecommunications user groups. It had to halt such hearings some time ago due to difficulty with getting people to partake and in finding the right balance of technically minded participants. But so much has changed in the telecoms landscape, and the previously mentioned geographical issues are polarising the situation to a far greater extent then before. Gripes aside ComReg are after all the regulatory body and they are willing to listen. We’ve all bemoaned their willingness and speed of operation at times, but they are none the less of continued benefit to Ireland Offline and it to them.

Ireland Offline should construct more formal relationships with the various other representative groups working in telecoms fields in Ireland. Regional Authorities, the Office of the director of Consumer Affairs, the Competition Authority all stand to gain from and benefit from Ireland Offline’s body of knowledge as part of their operations.

Ireland Offline needs to address it’s relationship with the Department of Communications if we feel we are not being listened too in shaping policy and seeding change. Perhaps they felt we have enough tools given to us up to now. Flat rate, the Managed Services Entity and the Group Data Scheme have all come about. Let’s put the time line issues aside, as they are here today and here to be utilised by us. Banging on about specifics at this early stage of the group data schemes is maybe a little premature. Constructive criticism is of course required, but it appears relations have become a little strained. But I’m quite sure they are not beyond repair.

Well that’s a few thoughts that have been rattling around my head since the AGM. I don’t intend to alarm people by putting these points across and I stress they are my own personal thoughts. Having been involved since the beginning I have a duty to put my experience into the pot, to see what if anything we come up with from here on in. It’s a commitment I gave at the AGM.

David Long
Former chairman and recently released committee member

DonegalMan

Good post, David, several of your points are indentical to what I've been thinking about. I will expand my own views over the next few days/weeks, but before I do that, can someone explain something to me in non-technical, simple layman's terms.

Why is there the drive towards local wireless schemes amd MAN's. Why is the Government still pumping money into even more fibre? Is this just because Eircom are so slow at enabling exchanges, so it is effectively activity and expenditure to bypass Eircom?

For example, local politicians in Ballybofey got very excited a few weeks ago announcing "Broadband for Ballybofey". What this seems to mean in reality is just more fibre - there's already fibre running from Lifford to Ballybofey - goes just past my front door <sigh>

If somehow or other the enabling of exchanges was accelerated, would this not be the most effective way to extend broadband throughout the country?

I realise there are issues relating to the standard of the copper and Eircom's distance from exchange limitations, but leave those aside for the moment, I just want to know if I understand the underlying principle correctly.

Martin Harran

P.S. Like David, I was involved in a lot of these relationship building activities in the early days. If the membership feels that these relationships should be worked on again, I will glady give any help I can.

De Rebel

I swore I was going to stay quiet for a few days, feel like I did enough damage at the weekend......


But I would like to say that it is heartening to see two former chairmen take the time and show the interest to post here today. They obviously have experience and understanding to contribute to the debate on IOFFL's future. And this, together with the Interim Chairman's well worded statement yesterday bode well for the debate that we are embarking on.

We have about 8 weeks to re-evaluate our objectives, set ourselves some realistic targets and determine whether there is the commitment to achieve these targets or not.

We are up against big powerful vested interests. And no matter how we lampoon them, they include some smart cookies. The challenge for us is to work smarter and box cleverer.


Knowing that we have Adam, David and Martin contributing is a great start. Now its down to the membership at large to let us have their opinions and their commitment

DonegalMan

Originally posted by De Rebel
We are up against big powerful vested interests. The challenge for us is to work smarter and box cleverer.

I didn't want to say too much just yet, De Rebel, but what you've just said there is the very essence of IOFFL in my view.

It's a wonderful sig for the next few weeks, do you want to hold onto it or can I steal it?

Martin

De Rebel

Originally posted by DonegalMan
It's a wonderful sig for the next few weeks, do you want to hold onto it or can I steal it?

Martin

All yours, Martin!!

dahamsta

Originally posted by dahamsta
I think there was nearly 25 people there

For the record, it was 23. Also for the record, the following are the members of the interim committee:

• Adam Beecher
• [snipped]
• Damian Mulley
• Elana Kehoe
• Gareth Pelly
• John Hackett
• John Timmons
• Ronan Briem

adam

Moriarty

I'm going to reply to Davids post in a while, but I'll do this one first.

Originally posted by DonegalMan
Why is there the drive towards local wireless schemes amd MAN's. Why is the Government still pumping money into even more fibre? Is this just because Eircom are so slow at enabling exchanges, so it is effectively activity and expenditure to bypass Eircom?

I'm convinced that this is down to a lack of political will on the part of the DCMNR and the minister. They are favouring the easy way out by throwing fistfulls of cash to duplicate infrastructure, instead of taking the bull by the horns and challenging eircom head on over their anti-competitive practices over the phone network in general and the local loop in particular. They probably know deep down that they're going to have to tackle eircom sometime, but the minister will be damned if it'll happen on his watch. So they continue to throw money at (for the most part) unneeded alternative solutions so that they can say to anyone that will listen 'but look, we're doing something about it!'.

Of course, comreg have a massive role to play in this aswell, but it seems like they won't budge without the departments specific say-so. So back we go to the political will to change the situation.

Originally posted by DonegalMan
For example, local politicians in Ballybofey got very excited a few weeks ago announcing "Broadband for Ballybofey". What this seems to mean in reality is just more fibre - there's already fibre running from Lifford to Ballybofey - goes just past my front door <sigh>

Indeed.

Originally posted by DonegalMan
If somehow or other the enabling of exchanges was accelerated, would this not be the most effective way to extend broadband throughout the country?

I think it would be the most effective solution by a country mile. If 95% of exchanges were upgraded by, say, July 1st 2005, vast swathes of the population would have immediate access to a cheap and effective broadband solution. Once the exchanges are upgraded, a critical mass will be quickly achieved with dsl penetration - like the UK has seen over the past two years - and true competition over the eircom bitstream service will become a reality.

Add an effective LLU strategy into the mix and you're quickly heading towards (a form of) that fabled goal of platform independance. For those that fail the radsl tests - and there will always be some that do - the likes of GDS's and fully comercial wireless operators can step in.

dahamsta

Would it be possible to get this merged into the other thread please? Obviously Dave wants to be heard by the membership, but if everyone starts a new thread on this topic we're going to have one messy looking forum and it's going to be much harder to distil the information into a coherent plan for IrelandOffline. Feel free to change the title of my thread to something more, uh, mainstream.

Thanks,
adam

sceptre

Originally posted by dahamsta
Would it be possible to get this merged into the other thread please?

Done

damien

Originally posted by Moriarty

I'm convinced that this is down to a lack of political will on the part of the DCMNR and the minister. .. They probably know deep down that they're going to have to tackle eircom sometime, but the minister will be damned if it'll happen on his watch.

You know I think you're right. I had never actually thought about it as simply as that.

Why the hell should we the texpayers have to build a new playing pitch just because one team on the existing pitch is getting away with murder ? All we need to do is replace the match officials or give them new clearer rules and confidence to take on the bad boys.

We're not looking to win or fix the game, we just want a fair game.

dahamsta

Thanks sceptre. Feel free to toss the request too.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by damien.m
Why the hell should we the texpayers have to build a new playing pitch just because one team on the existing pitch is getting away with murder ?

Anyone got costs on this? How much on average does it cost to enable an exchange? How much does it cost to lay a km of fibre?

Martin

damien

Originally posted by DonegalMan
Anyone got costs on this? How much on average does it cost to enable an exchange? How much does it cost to lay a km of fibre?

I think we may need to start composing a list of "questions that need answers". A moderated Wiki might be handy for this.

sceptre

Originally posted by dahamsta
Thanks sceptre. Feel free to toss the request too.

Aye, bit slow in responding but I'll get to it:)

iwb

I totally disagree with the answer to Martins question about building duplicate infrastructure, respectfully of course.
There are several reasons why the MAN's have the potential to be the answer.
I will point out that a short term solution they are not but saying

Why the hell should we the texpayers have to build a new playing pitch just because one team on the existing pitch is getting away with murder ?

is missing the point that although eircom owns the infrastructure and needs to have a better defined USO with respect to data provision, no matter how ballsy the government gets, it can't force eircom to enable exchanges. By what mechanism would that make sense?
eircom, we mandate you to enable the exchange in Dunquin, (which is probably a roadside cabinet) so that the population of 150 there can have broadband. You will have to build an exchange and run 20km of fibre or set up a wireless link to it for backhaul. You most likely won't get more than 20 subscribers for the first few years.
The absolutely only reasons that eircom will enable exchanges is potential loss of revenue or attractive revenue generation.
I don't want to get into a slagging match about eircom although I do think the behaviour of its management has been nothing short of deplorable. However, people don't seem to remember that it is a business like any other. It exists to make money and keep its shareholders happy.
A longer term reason for the MAN's to be the answer is technical. The bottom line is that fibre is faster than wireless or copper. Please don't start with pure bull about how WiMax is coming and so on. There is no comparison between the capacity of fibre and the other two and there probably will never be, or at least not in our lifetimes.
Laying this cable now means the infrastructure is in the ground. Sure it needs to be extended to the premises but at least now there is the last 50m to deal with rather than 50km to the nearest fibre.
Another part of the equation is aggregation. People are very happy to point out the isolated nature of the rings, 'islands of fibre' and so on. Pick Gweedore for example. Was there ever in the past, before the MAN was built there any chance whatsoever of alternative providers going there to supply bandwidth? I would say very little at best. Now that the network is in place, I would say the chances are far higher.
Any provider who takes a look now sees the possibility of bringing in one feed to one connection point and getting several customers on board.
I could and probably will go on more about this. There are so many advantages and potential advantages to the initiative.
One comment though that is very relevant to the disucssion at hand is that someone needs to keep an eye on the MSE and the whole initiative and ask the right quesitons among other things.

iwb

By the way, to answer an earlier question, I am willing to put time into IrelandOffline in the SE region. It's hard to say how much time I can commit but at least a few hours a week.

dahamsta

That's great to hear iwb, thanks for that. On your post, I have to admit that I've just skimmed it because I have a lot on my plate today, but here's a couple of quick comments:

There are several reasons why the MAN's have the potential to be the answer.

I think "an answer" would be a better way to put it. IMHO, there's no such thing as "the answer", or rather I'd prefer not to have "the answer" because if it happens it'll just be another monopoly. And of course it won't happen.

However, people don't seem to remember that it is a business like any other. It exists to make money and keep its shareholders happy.

It would be hard for us to forget. What people who make that argument seem to forget is that there even in a free market, there have to be rules, otherwise we would have chaos. Even Tony O'Reilly realises that. Eircom doesn't play by the rules, and in an ideal world they would have been punished for that. Unfortunately we have a crap referee.

For the record, although I do have a few issues with the MANs, ultimately I think they're a good idea. And I think wireless is a good idea, and FTTH, and guerilla cabling, and anything it bloody well takes to get Internet to the people. The more options we can give people the better.

However, we also need to keep an eye on how Gov.ie does things, because on many issues, they haven't exactly boxed clever thus far. And they have a pretty clever guy in charge atm. God help us if a Dr. Mickhead like O'Rourke gets control next time around...

adam

DonegalMan

Originally posted by iwb
I totally disagree with the answer to Martins question about building duplicate infrastructure, respectfully of course.

I don't want to start arguing the points you make just yet (I will soon ), the reason I asked the original question was I wanted to identify the nature of the problem rather than the solution(s) at this stage

Martin

jwt

Originally posted by Dangger

Ireland Offline - where to from here?

David Long
Former chairman and recently released committee member

David

Nice post, can I assume that the list of contacts, and invitations are documented somewhere?

My own two cents on some of the things to be addressed after the EGM assuming IrelandOffline still exists. Especially since we are asking people to contribute ideas etc.


Publicity
The press side of this appears to be very good. Media relations to me anyway look very good. However the grassroots side of things doesn’t. Joe Blogg on the street by and large hasn’t either heard of IrelandOffline or doesn’t know what it is or what it can do for them.

Several ideas occur to me on how to fix this.
Leaflet campaigns, borrowing from an idea Viking had when promoting broadband for Kinnegad. On the website have a simple page, A4 in size, black and white. Simple logo, bold header along the lines of “Looking for better internet access?” or perhaps “Help get Ireland connected” or even “Internet access..Ireland a third world country?”
Below that a short concise list of contact details for IrelandOffline and also the forum. Email addresses etc. Generally something short sweet and to the point.
Easy to print and cheap for everyone to produce.
Hand them out to garages, shops etc. Student could hand them out at colleges and universities, after all these are the people who are going to suffer from our current state.

Car stickers.
I am in talks with a printer at the moment trying to get a good deal on selfadhesive stickers, so I’ll ask for a price for simple black and white stickers using the logo and website address. I know this bloke well, so should get a good deal and if needs be I’ll front the money to get it going.

Web advertising.
Given the general tech level of members, everybody can make a point of posting to forums, chat rooms explaining our efforts and asking for help, non Irish sites included. Obviously check in advance that the site allows this and ask permission. Webmasters could place a prominent link to IrelandOffline on their sites and ask clients if they wouldn’t mind supporting a link. Another opportunity to explain all about IrelandOffline

Word of mouth
This is probably the best bit of advertising anyone can get. Ask any small business. Where do they get the most contacts and interest from, they will all tell you word of mouth. Tell people about IrelandOffline. Read up on the website press pack pages for anecdotes (parables) that explain the need for better internet access, why it’s so important to Irish businesses, individuals, farmers, the lollipop lady……….
Lets get people motivated; raise the issues when talking shop with colleagues, mention how if Ireland had decent Internet access teleworking would be more commonplace. How other countries have seen the light and are doing something about it. Lets make Internet access as big an issue as traffic jams. Everybody sees the benefits of improving traffic. Lets show and tell people how better Internet access can and will improve their quality of life. VoIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) a way of making cheap to free phone calls. It’s available and will probably be the single biggest selling point of broadband to the general public.

Some other thoughts…..

How about a commonly used terms definition page. What’s an USO? What’s a DLAM. What’s Comreg and what does it do? (No smart answers please )

We have many members from many walks of life, expertise in lots of different disciplines. Legal, admin, finance, tech, politics etc. to all these members I say HELP! We need help! You know how the legal system works, you know how the political mind works, you know how the civil service works. Tell us what we need to do. Tell us what we need to concentrate on. Tell us how to do things better.


I have about another 20 pages of ideas, comments etc but I think I’ll leave it at that for the moment.



John

dahamsta

Originally posted by jwt
How about a commonly used terms definition page.

Most are covered on the IrelandOffline wiki, which I cleaned up a small bit this morning. All the pages seem to be locked, I'll get them unlocked shortly.

adam

damien

Originally posted by jwt

I have about another 20 pages of ideas, comments etc but I think I’ll leave it at that for the moment.

Don't wait too long though

I think the main issue that can rally the masses and increase awareness tenfold is line rental. The fact that people are paying more for a service that's getting worse will get us more support than those just looking for net access but we have to decide whether something like line rental is too broad in scope. Personally I don't think it is as long as the USO is in place. But again the membership should decide that.

DonegalMan

OK, here are my own thoughts on the future of IOFFL, it’s a bit long but hopefully it will help spur other people’s thoughts and ideas.

At this stage I am focusing on what I think IOFFL should be trying to do rather than the specifics of how it should be tackled.I think it is vital that we define the raison d’etre of the organization before we get into the detailed strategies we should adopt.

Is IOFFL still needed?
IOFFL’s fundamental objective is “Affordable Internet access for all”. Whilst a lot of progress has been made over the last 3 years, we are still a long way from achieving this in Ireland. A limited form of FRIACO has been achieved but Broadband, which nowadays is taken for granted practically everywhere elsewhere in the developed world, is only available to a minority of people in Ireland.

IOFFL has made a significant contribution IMHO in specific areas as listed below to the improvements that have been made but there is still a lot to be achieved in each of them.

I’ve split these into separate posts to keep them manageable and allow other people to respond to specific areas.

DonegalMan

Political

As David Long said “It must not be forgotten that as a the small group of individuals on the committee of Ireland Offline were granted access to decision makers in government departments to people with the responsibility of shaping Ireland’s telecommunications policy, and to the body empowered to regulate the Irish telecom’s market.”

It seems to me that this is an area where we have lost a lot of ground. Christian’s original motion to disband expressed a lot of frustration with the Government and the Department of Communications but it came across to me that a lot of this was specifically related to the issues of community networks and backhaul. With respect to the people who put the work into this, I think it is one specific area of Broadband availability and in retrospect, perhaps too much focus was placed on it. I certainly don’t see it as a legitimate reason to close up shop.

We should make a determined effort to regain the ground lost here. The Department people that David and I had exposure to in the early days are very dedicated to development of Broadband and they are now working under a Minister who has shown the desire and the courage to take on Eircom. I for one am not entirely happy with the way he is going about it but I think we must persuasively present our opinions rather than just moaning. (Q. When was the last time IOFFL met the Department?)

The same principle applies to Comreg. It is too easy – and counterproductive - to just slag them off in this forum. Whether we like it or not, these are the people with the responsibility and the power, if we are unhappy with things they are or are not doing, then we should be in there arguing these issues face-to-face with them. (Q. When was the last time we met Comreg?)

DonegalMan

Media

In the early days of IOFFL, the media showed very little interest in the issue of Internet access. While this has improved, however, that interest is still largely confined to a few technical journalists. (Q. Why have we tolerated the situation where Eircom have blatantly refused to appear on any radio shows with an IOFFL representative present?)

Why is there not a national outcry about what is currently going on? The government has already spent vast sums of money on installing fibre that is lying dead in the ground because Eircom won’t light it. And guess what? The government is spending even more money doing the same thing to try to bypass Eircom but it is likely to end up the same way – fibre lying dead in the ground.

I don’t think the people of Ireland in general or the media in particular have woken up the scandal of how Eircom are destroying the potential future of this country by holding up expansion of broadband and by allowing the national network to degenerate so badly that if action is not taken soon, the country may have to face the prospect of replacing large chunks, if not all of it

I used to accept the argument that it is uneconomic to expect Telco’s to roll out Broadband to rural areas. I was wrong, it’s a big lie. BT have decided to roll it out to ALL AREAS. They’re a commercial organization like Eircom, if it’s viable for them to do this in Northern Ireland, then it’s viable for Eircom in the South – they are refusing to do so purely for short term benefits to their investors.

I believe that highlighting this scandal should be a major objective for IOFFL.

DonegalMan

Technical

We have to deal with the technical areas but do it in such a way that we do not get buried in a level of detail that ends up just confusing non-technical people like government ministers and their civil servants.

To me the technical issues can broadly be categorized into 3 areas

• Failure to keep up with new technology
  The improvements to DSL that are taking place elsewhere in the world to improve both the reach from exchanges and the capacity.
  
• Alternative Forms of Access
  Things like the Group Data Schemes and the potential impact of new wireless technology.
  
• Issues Affecting Individual Users
  Things like the state of copper wire as illustrated in Paul’s photos, line splitters, the abysmal failure rate on line testing and the suspicion that Eircom are being less that co-operative in regard to other suppliers.

DonegalMan

Motivating the Membership

This again is an area where we have lost a lot of ground. The committee decided to distance itself from this forum but put nothing else in its place to involve the rank and file membership or get their views - this forum over the last while has seemed to become more and more technically orientated with relatively little exchanges of views on the broader issues.

I don't know if I missed something here but the last newsletter I got before Christian's email was 11 months ago - the minutes of last year's AGM!

We claim to have about 2 000 members but have we really? How many of them are still interested? That's why I suggested elsewhere that we circulate a questionnaire.

In the early days of IOFFL, despite the problems there was an excitement, a buzz about IOFFL among the membership at large. We must find ways of recapturing that if we are to survive.

Well - that's the "whats"" as I see them, ideas on the ""hows"" to follow later

Martin Harran

maxheadroom

Originally posted by DonegalMan
I believe that highlighting this scandal should be a major objective for IOFFL.

This brought something to mind that I've been thinking about for a while now - could IOFFL do something like this ?

I don't see why not. We'd need a dedicated team of probably around 15 or 20 volunteers, and either a seperate sub-forum or mailing list to co-ordinate it (I'd be infavour of the sub forum idea)

Anytime a piece appears in the media, it'd get posted by anyone to this forum. Then people on the press response team would send a rebuttal to the media outlet involved. We could have a predecided set of responses to the standard boilerplate that gets put out by eircom, comreg et. al. and each member of the group could formulate their own response around those points. When someone has sent a reply, they post a reply to the thread containing the article. If there's more than 3 replies to an article, we consider that article dealt with and nobody else sends a response to it.

The advantage lies in the fact that its something people can do without having to contribute a huge amount of time, it avoids "form letter syndrome" where people just bin identical letters without opening them or reading them. The disadvantage is that it might take a lot of effort to get set up, to get the standard response points written, and to pick the people on the media response team.

But, I thought I'd throw the idea out there and see if anyone agrees / has suggestions for improvement etc..

cgarvey

I too believe that there's more to be done. I'm not sure what I can offer, but when we come up with a more finite list of things to do, we'll all have a better idea of where/how we can help out.

In the meantime I have a couple of observations...
1) Congrats
Congrats Adam, and I hopeful that your energy will bring a new wave of enthusiasm. Congrats to the outgoing committee also, on their efforts.

2) Success Measurement
Is there a way to measure IoffL's success past and future? I ask because I have no idea of what IoffL has achieved to date. I read lots of praise here, but (and I only did a quick search) I can't find any posts along the lines of "Comreg took onboard our submission and have recommended that XYZ..." or "Dermot's new directive is as a result of our meeting".

I presume (but have no idea, or proof) that IoffL contributed to the greater scheme of things, but I can't agree with posts like "we brought about cheaper DSL" when there doesn't appear to be any evidence of that. To help this, we should have an Achievements summary web page where members and press can see just how good IoffL is. If IoffL don't have any measurable successes to date, then its something to think about in the future.

3) Transparency
While I'm not an active member, I did consider myself to be a member (until I realised I had to re-register myself on the IoffL website .. which I *know* I did already back near the start, when it was asked of us!), I have had little idea of any of IoffL's activities over the last while. I've seen posts here about a couple of Comreg submissions being made, but there's no definitive list or ability to determine all of the organisation's current activities. I think its important for members to see what's going on, without having to ask, and equally important, if not more, for the media or public to be able to see that this organisation is involved and active. This, I believe, is important so that journalists who want to weigh up the authority of an IoffL release can go and see that we submit to DCMNR and Comreg requests, we have a working group on XYZ, and demonstrate an active interest in ABC. If they don't have this information readily available, they can either ask others (and I don't think freelance journalism is very peer-friendly!), or they can ascertain that this is a half-assed self-proclaimed organisation.

4) Structure
If IoffL continues, its time to think about the structure a bit too. What constitutes a member, what is the organisation's constitution. Formal structures for the committee, and sub-committees/working groups. A proper legal entity (presumably just an association).

5) Public Awareness
Martin mentions this, and I agree with most of the other posts on this too.. however, the one big thing I think that would help here is a resource that members could draw from to help educate the masses. I think I speak for an awful lot of members (but could be wrong!) when I say that I know a bit about the various topics IoffL discuss, but there are some I know shimmy-all about. Having a resource pool with HOWTOs / FAQs / Beginner Guides would help a lot, so that when someone asks a question that I don't know about I can refer them to that, or get the answer myself there. I can help put some of that together, but would need help. "Ireland Offline's guide to GDS", "Internet access options for rural areas", "A comparison of Internet access technologies available in urban Ireland", etc. That would give members the backing they need when trying to convert the masses (or neighbours/relatives/friends, like it would be for most of us!).

Just some ideas & ramblings!

.cg

cgarvey

Originally posted by maxheadroom
Anytime a piece appears in the media, it'd get posted by anyone to this forum. Then people on the press response team would send a rebuttal to the media outlet involved.

Great idea. A dedicated sub forum would allow for very targetted conversations to help establish a rapid response.. E.g. eircom release some new brilliant technology and within a few hours we have a press release welcoming it (not likely) or pointing out that it is in fact only ISDN at the x-highest price in Europe.

But most important is to get the response out there quickly, on the website so that the media can get to it and see all our other responses, etc.

.cg

cgarvey

Originally posted by DonegalMan
Technical
To me the technical issues can broadly be categorized into 3 areas

Martin raises all good points, and clearly. I would just add one technical issue that i think should be given some attention: Access to Internet access.

What do rural people do for Internet access? 12Kbps is what I have to endure when I go back to my homeplace.. and that's only on a rare occasion (and I'm not alone).. often its faster / more stable on my mobile phone's 9.6Kbps.

What choices do urban customers have, I can only access DSL .. I should have access to more than one form of Internet Access. Granted I have access to a range of DSL products from different companies, but they are all fundamentally the same and priced around the one company's offering. Wireless isn't available to me (no LoS) or have of north of the Liffey. Cable is only available to a few places.

Short term lettings/rented accommodation have a very finite choice. 2 month rolling contracts are rare and incur a hefty additional expense (disconnection fee), and mounting external equipment rules out alternatives.

So while more of us do have access to DSL now, there is still a substantial amount of people who have no access to choice.

.cg

MarcusGarvey

• IOFFL should start using it's membership more I think.
  
• It should also not give in to Comreg and Eircom and the Government. The more you ignore us, the closer (and LOUDER) we'll get (to paraphrase Morrissey).
  
• Ioffl shouldn't just be noise makers, they/we should provide sensible solutions to the problems. The GDSS idea is one good solution but it should not be the only solution. Alternative last mile technologies should be explored and real life examples of them working should be presented to the Government and Comreg and to the membership.
  
• The woeful USO needs to be discussed with Comreg and the Government. We the people need to show how it is harmful to us and the future development of the country.
  
• Education. We need to educate ourselves, everyone we know, the press, Comreg, the Govt, the EU and the general public about how all the issues Ioffl campaigns for are important to all Irish people and if these issues are not tackled soon and sensible solutions created we may not have a proper working telecoms infrastructure by the end of the decade.
  

cgarvey

Agreed Marcus, and my call for a resource centre would help us educate ourselves better, and media/public. We'd be all singing from the same hymn sheet, and wouldn't need to make up stuff

.cg

ekehoe

Originally posted by maxheadroom
Then people on the press response team would send a rebuttal to the media outlet involved.

I'm totally down with this. I miss being the bigmouth that I used to be :-).

E

Wassabi

I am willing to help with the Athlone/Ballinasloe area.

Not for sure how a yank would go over, spouting about the deplorable state of telecom, but I do have some media contacts if thats of any use.

- Was

Gadgie

I am willing to put time and effort into helping IrelandOffline. Not sure exactly much time, but the shift I work gives me a few days off at the start of the week, so it should be more than a few hours a week anyway.

I don't know how much help I'll be, but if any of the committee members want to PM me we can discuss it further and see what we come up with.

damien

Originally posted by Wassabi
I am willing to help with the Athlone/Ballinasloe area.

Not for sure how a yank would go over, spouting about the deplorable state of telecom, but I do have some media contacts if thats of any use.

- Was

Any and all help is appreciated. As for being a yank, sure isn't wee Elana one, though we class her more Irish now with that sharp tongue of hers. She even says "begorrah" a lot.

Edit: I'm soo dead.

Wassabi

Competition is the key to everything. Any way we can spur more of it the better.

I still cant believe they have sectioned off the country between the two major cable companys and dont go into each others areas. I want cable modems so bad I can taste it.

- Was