Sick of final table crapshoots...

DeVore

Ok, this is probably part-frustration for getting in the bubble again last night in the 20-in.

Theres one thing thats kinda pissing me off lately... I've gotten to a fair number of final tables in the last month and the same thing has happened each time.
Its always 1:30 am or later and the blinds are usually up at the 3k/6k level already or pretty soon after it (levels rise every 15 minutes!!). Which means that you're *average* stack (which last night with 39 players would have been about 20-25K for each of the final table players) gets 3 rounds of cards before they are blinded out of it.
Now consider that there will be normal-distributions of those chips and someone will be chip leader with 45K and two others will have only 10K.

Joe O'Neill was joking about this last night when the blinds jumped a level before the deal even got all the way around. It turns into a crap shoot and takes any skill from the game.

I've got to talk to Luke this evening about out tournie and I think I'll whinge at him about making the tournies start on time (9pm!) and giving the final table levels a bit more breathing space... last night was a farce, great night of cards and very enjoyable but the final table might as well have been roulette

DeV.

Hyzepher

This should become a big issue for people - spending 4-5 hours getting to the final table only to see your stack threatened by the blinds more than any player is rediculous.

The blinds are generally used to reduce the amount of time a tournament takes to play so we cant do without them - nor would we want to. But I think we do need to set a realistic maximum blind level or just freeze the blinds once the final table is formed.

In the times that i have reached the final table by main concern is to get seated in seat 8,9, or 1 - you can then use the tight, tight startegy for 5/6 hands and normally the low stacks are gone by the time you have to ante anything - its more of a survive the blinds than anything else.

Hyzepher

Batbat

but cant you just fold out?

Juan Pablo

I agree with ya Hyzepher. The less people there are in a tournament, then the less chips there are at the final table. On Saturday night we only had 29 entants, and a total of 130,000 between the final table, giving an average of just less than 14,500 per person, with the blinds moving from 1-2 to 2-4. Disproportionate to say the least, especially if you consider the fact that the big blind makes up 2-4% of the average stack (assuming steady growth of stack) early on, but makes up 27% of the average stack at the final table? But how can this be addressed? Or is it something we just grin and bear

:rolleyes:

Marq

I was discussing this at length with Brendan last night. I too am of the opinion that at the final table the blind levels should be approached differnently. My own suggestion would be that the levels go up to half an hour. Problem is that when you think about it, is there any benefit to the card club to have the tournament run longer? the fitz doesn't need to see good poker at the final table, it's needs people to finish up and spend their winnings on roulette. Much as I think it would be really nice to have a final table that isn't, as Joe said, a total crapshoot, I can't see the Fitz feeling any pressure to change it.

p.s. Luke is in London at the Gutshot cardroom, he's back tomorrow. Expect tonight to be hilarious, last night certainly was.

User45701

Originally posted by Batbat
but cant you just fold out?

A blind is a sum of money u pay to get urcards.
It gets higher and higher as the game goes on, it gets to the point no metter how **** ur cards are u have to play because so much or ur stack is aready comiited.

DeVore

"is there any benefit to the card club to have the tournament run longer?"

Er... yes there is. Continued patronage!
Right now the casinos (both that I frequent) have to make a mental shift in their attitude from "we service hardcore, cash gamers who warm up on the tournies and have all night to spend"... to ... "we service office workers/students who would prefer to be in bed by 1-2pm".

Not starting the tournies on time is just reinforcing that people can arrive late and its all fine. Now I arrive late occasionally but I presume I'm going to be joining a tournie thats in progress. I'd prefer if they started at 9 and gave the final table levels 30 mins each from the extra time that would give them...

DeV.

Marq

I understand that Tom, but tournaments make no money whatsoever for the Fitz. If they're not there to be getting people in the door and onto the table games / cash games there's no point to running them. Believe me, if all the people that played in the tournaments just up and left when they went out/finished playing, the casinos wouldn't run them. Unfortunate, but true.

sirchancealot

This disproportionate blinds thing is a problem worldwide, I read an article where the Devilfish was complaining about it saying it lead to a crapshoot,I dont think this will be addressed in the near future and even though sometimes it makes you wish you had a nappy on at the final table it still can lead to an exciting climax and some great bad beat stories (providing you win of course).

One other point,I have discussed this with other players in the fitz and am thinking of approaching Luke with the suggestion that he runs a tournament leader board with a small amount of money taken from each tourney and put up as a prize for the leading X amount of players.You get X points for playing and X points for a final table place.The top ranked players then battle it out in a freeze out every 3,6 or 12 months.............someone I spoke to suggested that doing away with the bubble tourney might fund this........comments......

DeVore

And if people dont come to the casinos for the tournaments, they ain gonna be able to play the cash games... thats the point I was (badly) making.

The tournies are there to get people in. If people (read:me and others) arent happy with them as they are, then they potentially can go elsewhere... neh?
I know tournies make the casinos nothing (trust me, I've looked into the maths!) and they are loss leaders for cash games and roulette etc. They still serve a purpose (to attract new/existing players) and is they arent doing that as well as they could. Thats my only comment really...

I still greatly prefer the Fitz (apart from that aul bag that runs the floor occasionally!)

DeV.

henbane

Originally posted by DeVore
The tournies are there to get people in. If people (read:me and others) arent happy with them as they are, then they potentially can go elsewhere... neh?

Where? All cardrooms have pretty much the same attitude to tournaments. They're paying dealers, waiting staff, covering the cost of drinks and have to keep buying chips & cards for it. If one was to change their attitude, we might have a choice but if we're not losing money through the more traditional avenues of games against the house there is little or no value in them prolonging the event for our benefit.

I know tournies make the casinos nothing (trust me, I've looked into the maths!) and they are loss leaders for cash games and roulette etc.

Cash games also do little more than cover costs through the rake. It's all about the roulette, blackjack, brag etc.

DeVore

Originally posted by sirchancealot
One other point,I have discussed this with other players in the fitz and am thinking of approaching Luke with the suggestion that he runs a tournament leader board with a small amount of money taken from each tourney and put up as a prize for the leading X amount of players.You get X points for playing and X points for a final table place.The top ranked players then battle it out in a freeze out every 3,6 or 12 months.............someone I spoke to suggested that doing away with the bubble tourney might fund this........comments......

A tournament leader board would be great! The best thing about the Business League was the ongoing league standings etc... I'd love to see where some of us would rank in there, I think it might make some people sit up and take notice of us a bit more

DeV.

kencleary

Speaking of the Business League - Anyone got any idea when its restarting?

sirchancealot

Would the phantom guffer from table one last night please seek medical help immediatly.

DeVore

Bet that was LaFortezza! Its one of his many tells....

DeV.

Lafortezza

I was reading a little on 2+2 about this. The so-called professional and celebrity players were lamenting how the WSOP big events have gone towards a crapshoot. So many people enter and so many of these 'lesser players' are willing go all-in on a coin toss because it fits with their style of play, they see it as good poker... Whereas pros and the big names prefer to grind out a win, throwing away good cards when they might only have a marginal lead, just because they want to win by skill instead of luck.

As for blinds, I agree about the final table blinds, they are ridiculous, you're hoping to see any Ace or any pair, go all in and hope for better than a 52-48 chance if you're called. In Samba's home game last friday we had the blinds perfect. At the final table they were enough that they hurt a bit if you didn't play many hands but you could still call to see a flop every now and then if you held a nice hand.

I don't think Luke will agree though for the reasons Marq said.

mewso

That devilfish article was on pokerineurope.com if I remember correctly. The idea was that once you are down to the final you lower the blinds instead of increasing them which allows for skillful pokering to win out.

Davey Devil

I say have a chat to Luke and see if you can come to some kind of comprimise. It's not like they need the table at that time is it? The only game I played in The Fitz that it wasn't a crapshoot was the 50 on the Friday, when we down to 3 we were talking about having the blinds put up. Maybe that was just a freak occurance though.

Personally I don't care myself as I don't think I'm ever going to reach another final table.

DeVore

ah davey, I felt bad getting AA and KK while you were dreging the depths of KQ and worse... if there is a massacre and lots of people are knocked out fast, or obviously if its a FO then the blinds are ok at final table... I think they should just leave that table alone for an extra half an hour and let the players play. Most of the time they'd play even if there was no blind at all!!!

DeV.

Davey Devil

Both times I have been at the final table in the 250 they have frozen the blinds at a certain stage, so they are sensible enough in the tournament. The €20 envolves alot less money but I think it should be given the same repect. I'm don't think they should should freeze them completely but going up every half hour seems fair to me.

Marq

The Friday night 50 game is the most reasonable that I've seen. There's an extra blind level of 75/150, which does make a difference [think there's a 150/300 asweel, I'll check tomorrow]. Blind levels are 25 minutes even after the freeze as opposed to 15. Definitely the best tournament I've seen, with the least "crapshoot factor."

melachi

I agree with DeVore here, too tired to read through the rest of the thread. Have they done anything to change it?

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Marq
The Friday night 50 game is the most reasonable that I've seen. There's an extra blind level of 75/150, which does make a difference [think there's a 150/300 asweel, I'll check tomorrow]. Blind levels are 25 minutes even after the freeze as opposed to 15. Definitely the best tournament I've seen, with the least "crapshoot factor."

Finished 3rd in last nights €50+€50 game. Got to the final table with small stack of 11k but got nice cards and good flops at the right times and got up to 2nd stack. Blinds were at the 3k-6k and 4k-8k mark with between 3 and 5 players left, enough to hurt the small stacks but I was on about 50-60k, big stack on about 90k and 3rd stack on about 40k. Plenty to play around with but still the blinds were worth stealing.

They have a 150-300 blind level and I think the time per blind round is longer maybe too.