Feedback on the €50 Merrion freezeout.

Lafortezza

We originally thought we'd just about break the 30 player mark last night so it when 50 bodies appeared through the door it was great, thanks to everyone for coming. It is a real indication that the €50 freezeout format is the tournament that people want to play the €100 freezeout is too much cash and the rebuy tournaments are not always that much fun if your short of cash and not playing your usual game.

What we want to do now is to find out what changes (if any) are needed to make the tournament better.

Firstly we want to know if Monday evening is the preferred time for it.
Our options might be

• Monday 7pm start
• Thursday 7pm start
• Saturday 6/7pm start

These are the days that the Merrion has free space and is willing to accomodate us. Thursdays 7pm isn't really an option due to the Fitz freeroll, so its down to Sat or Monday.

What did you all think about the blind structure?
I noticed at table 3 where I was dealing that as the blinds went to about 300-600 everybody tightened up alot and it was either all-in or fold for the small and average stacks. Three hands in a row everybody folded around to the blinds, and twice the SB just conceded. It not really entertaining poker if there isn't room to play and get involved. I think its just the nature of the freezeout when no new chips are coming to the table compared to a rebuy.

Did the lack of proper casino dealers bother anyone?
I was happy enough to deal and people like Ger and DeV and Hyzepher were too but if the tournament continues and grows then it is likely that tables will have to deal for themselves. Would this be a big factor in you coming to the next tournament?

Any other feedback, criticisms, suggestions or anything is very welcome. If we got 50 people for last nights tournament then there's no reason it couldn't go on to be huge.

PS There's a pint for whoever knocked DeV out last night, anyone remember who it was? DeV's a terrible player...

Waylander

I like that time slot myself, particularly with a freeroll starting downstairs at nine. If you move to Saturdays it may clash with the BSOP. I thought the blind structure was fine and a lack of dealers would not bother me.

kencleary

Originally posted by lafortezza

Firstly we want to know if Monday evening is the preferred time for it.
Our options might be

• Monday 7pm start
• Thursday 7pm start
• Saturday 6/7pm start

These are the days that the Merrion has free space and is willing to accomodate us. Thursdays 7pm isn't really an option due to the Fitz freeroll, so its down to Sat or Monday.

I Think Monday 6/7 is by far the best time for it. As you say Thursday is unfeasable and frankly too many people would have too much better stuff to do on a Saturday night

Originally posted by lafortezza
What did you all think about the blind structure?
I noticed at table 3 where I was dealing that as the blinds went to about 300-600 everybody tightened up alot and it was either all-in or fold for the small and average stacks. Three hands in a row everybody folded around to the blinds, and twice the SB just conceded. It not really entertaining poker if there isn't room to play and get involved. I think its just the nature of the freezeout when no new chips are coming to the table compared to a rebuy.[/B]

I actually thought the stacks were a little too large for the blind structure early on. Whenever anybody doubled up by getting a caller for an all-in they immediately raced into a chip lead whereas grinding only slowly increased a players stack. Meant there was only incentive to play really premium hands.

Originally posted by lafortezza
Did the lack of proper casino dealers bother anyone?
I was happy enough to deal and people like Ger and DeV and Hyzepher were too but if the tournament continues and grows then it is likely that tables will have to deal for themselves. Would this be a big factor in you coming to the next tournament?[/B]

Nope dealers were fine errrrrr though perhaps I am a biased source

Originally posted by lafortezza
Any other feedback, criticisms, suggestions or anything is very welcome. If we got 50 people for last nights tournament then there's no reason it couldn't go on to be huge.

PS There's a pint for whoever knocked DeV out last night, anyone remember who it was? DeV's a terrible player... [/B]

*Shrug* Don't think there's any need for it to be a huge tournament. 50 players is loads assuming this is going to be a semi-regular tournament at least. How often would people play? Personally i'd play it every week on a Monday and it would reduce my trips to the Fitz to just the Freeroll, though maybe every fortnight would be best to maintain interest.

Hectorjelly

Firstly we want to know if Monday evening is the preferred time for it.
Our options might be

Monday suits me the best, Thursday would be ok, Saturday would be a disaster IMO.

What did you all think about the blind structure?

They went up far to fast, we got aprox 8/9 deals win each round. Either you need to increase the starting chips or increase the time for each round. 3000 isnt really enough, with this amount there isnt much room for manuervre.

I think its just the nature of the freezeout when no new chips are coming to the table compared to a rebuy.

If there isnt enough chips at the table.

Did the lack of proper casino dealers bother anyone?

Not really, but the dealing was far too slow.

Regards

Daragh

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by kencleary

I actually thought the stacks were a little too large for the blind structure early on. Whenever anybody doubled up by getting a caller for an all-in they immediately raced into a chip lead whereas grinding only slowly increased a players stack. Meant there was only incentive to play really premium hands.

I dont understand this, if the stacks are low then should only really be playing high Pair and Face cards, as you are not getting the implied odds to play connectors or small pocket pairs, the deeper the stack the more hands you should be playing.

Juan Pablo

Mondays would suit me best until September anyway. Saturday would eat into my PL omaha/Holdem tourney in the fitz and my customary post casino visit to 92. Thanks again for dealing lads, most notably Lafortezza for all them lovely Big Slicks early on! Although that A5 I could have done without......:D

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by Hectorjelly
I dont understand this, if the stacks are low then should only really be playing high Pair and Face cards, as you are not getting the implied odds to play connectors or small pocket pairs, the deeper the stack the more hands you should be playing.

To explain this further, at my table several people raised with Ak to 600 when the blinds were 50 100. Even if you still have a full stack of 3000, you should not call this raise with any thing other than a premium hand. Because the stacks are so low, you arent getting the implied odds to call. If you had a starting stack of 5 or 6000 you would do.

kencleary

Originally posted by Hectorjelly
I dont understand this, if the stacks are low then should only really be playing high Pair and Face cards, as you are not getting the implied odds to play connectors or small pocket pairs, the deeper the stack the more hands you should be playing.

What I meant was with small blinds and large stacks the average pot was relatively small, but a player who moved all-in and got a caller who doubled him through set him up so that only a significant amount of grinding out small pots could enable a player catch to up him. I suppose this is balanced by the risk of being immediately put out of the tournament but I just found that it reduced the game to a player winning two coin tosses (ie pair versus two overcards etc) to set himself up for the final table.

kencleary

Originally posted by Hectorjelly
To explain this further, at my table several people raised with Ak to 600 when the blinds were 50 100. Even if you still have a full stack of 3000, you should not call this raise with any thing other than a premium hand. Because the stacks are so low, you arent getting the implied odds to call. If you had a starting stack of 5 or 6000 you would do.

But if you had a stack size of 5/6k then the original raiser would likely just have raised higher surely (1200 for example) and the odds would remain the same.

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by kencleary
But if you had a stack size of 5/6k then the original raiser would likely just have raised higher surely (1200 for example) and the odds would remain the same.

There was plenty of bad play last night, but I hope nobody would raise the blinds by 12.

kencleary

Originally posted by Hectorjelly
There was plenty of bad play last night, but I hope nobody would raise the blinds by 12.

*Shrug* When the blinds are so low and the stacks so large I think more people (myself included) tend to calculate raises as a percentage of their stack rather than as a multiple of the blinds.

cormie

Monday is fine and good with the freeroll later on if you're knocked out. I was 10 mins late for it and I made it to around 18th, So if you make it to 18th, you've basically had a poker fix (even though I went home and played online freebies) I think the 7 start time is cool. Nice and early and you don't have to pay for parking after 7pm!

a €25 + €2.50 would also be very nice to have. Accomodate for the even smaller pockets (prize pool of about €1250 would be still very nice)

Blind structure can be greatly improved. There is no room to play the players, just the cards in my oppinion. More starting chips and more time between increases.

The dealer situation; I offered to deal and was put at table 2 seat 2, Ken was in seat 1 and he was the dealer. I didn't get this. He did a good job and had the pots sorted and even though I don't agree with the harshness of newbie ignorance (as in raising less than double and being forced to call) he had good discipline at the table. My problem is that Ken was doing the shuffle where you pick up the deck and use your right hand (if right handed) to shuffle into the deck in your left. I didn't want to cause a ruckuss but I did see players looking at the deck whilst being shuffled. I knew they weren't there to cheat but it was possible. I don't think anyone would care, or would have cared if a seat position or two was changed.

We don't have to be as strict as they are in Casino games. It was a good laugh, people peering at all ins etc. Cool.

All in all, a good night.

Improvements: Blinds, Dealers.
Suggestions: Lower buy-in if possible. Rotate it weekly maybe?

Marq

I personally thought the blind structure was reasonable enough, although I feel that starting with 4,000 gives people more of an incentive to get in pots and play earlier on, which is always a plus. I did feel the dealing was a little bit slow, although not too bad, and maybe with quicker dealing we'd fit more hands in per blind level and this makes a huge difference. Except for when we were short-handed on the second last table I don't recall the blinds ever passing me twice at one level. So yeah, maybe dealers, you could really notice the difference at the last table (I was awesomely taking notes). I'm sure the merrrion would charge you through the nose for them though.

I think Monday's a great idea. With a freeze-out format there are always going to be people that go out early and with the free-roll on downstairs at nine, you'll always get a full night of poker out of it.

To echo Cormie, the atmosphere was great.

Well done again everyone.

quozl

I'd rather it was on a saturday. When I play poker I just will not sleep that night except for maybe an hour, stupid brain churning odds and hands. So it's as if I've got a bloody hangover the next day in work.

If it's on a saturday i'm gonna be heading out anyway, so if I get knocked out I'll just stay in town drinking, and everything was over by 12 which isnt too bad.

I'd only go monthly at the most though.

Greg

Hyzepher

One of the big benefits of last night, for me anyway, was the starting time. At 7pm it gives people like me an opportunity to play without having to spend up to 3am playing. With this in mind extending the blind periods - although a reasonable request - simply has the effect of extending the time it takes to play the tournie. Last nights game finished shortly before 12 midnight - which I think is perfect. What I wouldn't like to see is us starting at 7pm and finishing at 2am.

btw - the €100 game in the Fitz started at 9:30pm and finished at 3:30am - with only 40ish players. 6 hours is a long time to play poker with the risk of going out on the bubble.

We could increase the starting chips to 4000 and I think this would have a better effect. But we still wouldn't have any control over the size of the bets - as Ken says the larger the stack the larger the bets might be.

Hyzepher

Davey Devil

I'd like to see the starting chips at 4,000 and Levels increased to 25 mins. Wasn't there for long enough to comment on anything else. Did The Merrion ask you to have it finished at any particular time?

I like the Monday night time slot and I'd be willing to play weekly.

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by kencleary
*Shrug* When the blinds are so low and the stacks so large I think more people (myself included) tend to calculate raises as a percentage of their stack rather than as a multiple of the blinds.

You shouldnt, this is a mistake. I know you dont want to let in people cheaply when you have a good hand, but you have to ask yourself; what do you want to achieve by raising? Since the blinds are so low just winning them is pointless. AA, KK and AK are worth much more than the blinds, and you are losing chips if all you win is the blinds.

I asked somebody last night why they raised so much with AK, and they replied "to protect my big hand". The object of poker is to win chips, not pots.

Krusty_Clown

The dealers were perfect. Ken was very tolerant and supportive of some of the players who were newer to Hold'em.. I though it was great, and I'm sure those players appreciated it..

Mondays at 7pm are perfect.. Enough time for a pint or two beforehand, and early enough afterwards to get a bus home (unless you finish in the big money, in which case you wont mind getting a taxi ).

I thought the starting chips and blind structure were fine, although having said that, I picked up some chips early on, and wasn't short stacked until the final table, so I may be biased.

So, dealers fine, time/date fine, chips and blinds fine..

DapperGent

Originally posted by Hectorjelly
I asked somebody last night why they raised so much with AK, and they replied "to protect my big hand". The object of poker is to win chips, not pots.

You should give less advice when at the table. It's intensely irritating.

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by DapperGent
You should give less advice when at the table. It's intensely irritating.

It doesnt make for very good poker when the pot is vastly over bet, and I couldnt help myself. (I also really wanted to play the hand) But you're right and I apologise.

kipple

I like the 7pm start time.
A weekday is best for me, Saturday is out.
Lack of "pro" dealers is not an issue.
The cost is too large for me to do this every week.


T.

DapperGent

No need to apologise!

If people are happy to steal blinds then let them steal blinds.

Personally I think you're over rating AK it's a nice hand but isn't made. A big raise either gets you a small pot or lets you know where you are if you get a caller, who is going to be strong, leaving you with easy decisions on the flop.

Looking on AK as an opportunity to get loads of chips out of preflop is (I think) very dangerous, the time to do that is when you just caught loads of a rainbow flop. But that's just me.

amp

Found the structure grand. Didn't end too late despite the larger turnout.

Forgive my laziness with the lack of reading etc, but is this going to be a monthly or weekly thing? If it's monthly then I don't care what day it's on (as long as it's after payday). If it's weekly then I'd prefer Mondays.

DeVore

There is no way in hell I can do this every week. Its just too much work and hassle and it would lose the "special event" feeling it has. At most it will be twice a month and a different game at that (possibly a 25/25 single rebuy tournie.)

DeV.

Juan Pablo

I agree with our Dapper Gent on this one. I think HectorJelly is reffering to either myself or Mr Pudding here, as we popped out big raises with big slick. Due to the fact that it is not "made" I'd be loathe to letting someone limp in on suited connectors due to a flat call only to hit a flush draw/ straight draw. I did get called once on it and hit a board of AKx and won a decent pot (would have been more but for a very commendable put down from my opponant on AQ) but obv everyone is entitled to their stragtegies on how to play AK.

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by Juan Pablo
I did get called once on it and hit a board of AKx and won a decent pot (would have been more but for a very commendable put down from my opponant on AQ) but obv everyone is entitled to their stragtegies on how to play AK.

No, there is only one way to play AK: D

That was a nice hand, (the AK vs AQ) how did you get on once you had all my chips?

Lafortezza

On the subject of dealers the people in the merrion said we could probably get 2 dealers to deal the whole tournament for our €50 + €5. 2 dealers would rotate around the 5 tournament tables. If we wanted more dealers we'd have to pay more registration or take it out of the prize pool. Out of everyone who was there last night there's enough people I think who can deal quick enough, but its doubtful they want to deal while playing. Personally I loathe when the deal is passed around player to player with everyone taking their turn.

The blind structure question is interesting. Because its a freezeout I think people don't want to go out early, they want to get a couple of hours of poker for their money. Thats why they will sometimes overbet with a hand like AK preflop, they want a maximum of 2 callers, and if they take the blinds then so be it, they didn't lose and didn't almost get knocked out. The €25 + €25 rebuy that DeV mentioned might be a different option.

Current opinion seems to favour monday evenings.

PHB

I'd love a rotating buy-in system

You could have 25 in one week, 50 the next, 25 again, then 100 at the end of the month or something?
This would mean you would get the same as before in regards registration over the long run(the month) but you could accomodate the poorer *cough* students on these here boards

Juan Pablo

how did you get on once you had all my chips

Gave them all away to Mr Pudding in one hand, had A5, board came down 2-3-4, went allin with one to act, whom, of course, was sitting on 5s6s!

Hectorjelly

Originally posted by Juan Pablo
Gave them all away to Mr Pudding in one hand, had A5, board came down 2-3-4, went allin with one to act, whom, of course, was sitting on 5s6s!

I hope he told you he had a monster!

Originally posted by lafortezza
The €25 + €25 rebuy that DeV mentioned might be a different option. [/B]

I dont know about anyone else but I much prefer a freezout, rebuys tend to make the game go on much longer as well.

DapperGent

Originally posted by Juan Pablo
Gave them all away to Mr Pudding in one hand, had A5, board came down 2-3-4, went allin with one to act, whom, of course, was sitting on 5s6s!

I'm not Mr. Pudding. He was just a little to my left, we're both stubbly and bespectled. I'm sounder though.

Davey Devil

I'm not mad about the €25 + €25 either, I would't mind having a €25 Freezeout though. Maybe it should alternate from 25 to 50 week to week, no point in having a 100 event as PHB suggested as The Fitz and The Merrion already run those events.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Juan Pablo
Gave them all away to Mr Pudding in one hand, had A5, board came down 2-3-4, went allin with one to act, whom, of course, was sitting on 5s6s!

Ah yes, the triumphant cry of 'I've got the nuts!' before the guy who did, in fact, have the nuts turned over his cards

gerire

Originally posted by Davey Devil
I'm not mad about the €25 + €25 either, I would't mind having a €25 Freezeout though. Maybe it should alternate from 25 to 50 week to week, no point in having a 100 event as PHB suggested as The Fitz and The Merrion already run those events.

I agree with Davey here, possably rotating every fortnight €25 for the middle week and €50 for the payday week.

Personally I think Monday is a better day, less pressure off the missus as to why im not going out with her on a Saturday night,

I thought the blinds were grand, I dont really mind playing and dealing at once as it usually means ill muck those marginal hands and only play good(ish) hands, so it does kinda benefit me, however when in my first hand not dealing dev hands me the big slick its hard to complain really.

A good night thanks to all who came along

gerire(aka the sh1t dealer on T1)

Marq

Originally posted by gerire
rotating every fortnight €25 for the middle week and €50 for the payday week.

I think that's a fantastic idea.

evillive

may as well have my five cents worth of say

the monday 7 game is good for me

twice a month would probably get a regular crowd going, there will probably be a bigger crowd next few times and it'll start to settle down a bit then


the blinds could be left a little longer if we deal ourselves or not if we had casino dealers at all the tables, our dealer was great didnt fcuk up once but the house dealers are always quicker. if we only had two house dealers and 5 tables then the two tables would be seeing more action and possibly ay a disadvantage of losing players quicker,

i have no problem dealing myself pretty solid but too slow if i say so myself,

just one point about the boards dealers and the event of anyone not happy about their shuffling techniques as mentioned above, in this case the cards should be passed to the person right of the button for cutting, even if its just for peace of mind, you still wont get aces any more frequent though

i think the chips should be 4 or 5 k considering as its a freezeout

i think the terminator idea was cool but the bad beat didn't create as much interest imo and i'd vote to put that cash back into the pot

thanks again guys for organising

DeVore

I agree with Davey on the costs too mostly, what I'd prefer to do with this is run whatever kind of night *we* decide we want to run and screw waiting for the casinos to organise it.

Alternating the structure from tournie to tournie also sounds good....

DeV.

mewso

I think all went well. I agree 4000 chips is probably more like it. Not sure about blind timings as I tend to agree with Hyzepher about finishing at 12.
I also think rebuy should be a dirty word when we organize these things. Some players may not realise how different a frezeout is to a rebuy and it's a perfect opportunity to learn. IMO It's all about waiting for the hands and looking to increase your stack when you get them.

Hectorjelly

All in all it seemed to go really well, so when the next one planned for?

DeVore

Start of August! (just after PayDay )

DeV.

cormie

There are enough good dealers amongst us to get it running smooth and quick. Do other people have a problem with a seat switch or two? For example if somebody was in dealers chair and I got seat 6, would it be ok for us to swap and let me deal?

I think the 25+2.50 and 50+5 options are best. The point is to offer what the casinos don't. No point in 100 fo.

I think a re-buy tournie would be far too complicated to run whilst trying to play.

I don't think there is a need to get any dealers from the casino.


The more money in the prize pool the better. If this means using our own dealers, so be it. Also, if it was a re-buy, surely the person taking care of the re-buys would want to get something for their time (again, less money in pp)


The timing was pretty good. However we need to acomodate for larger chip amount and less blindage. This could be balanced with a competant dealer at each table.

MrPudding

On the subject of being as strict as the casinos. I think it is very important to mimic the casinos as closely as possible. I would rather be told by Ken or some of us that our bet was a call rather than a raise than some of the people in the Fitz or Merrion.

One of the reasons for us organising this game is to allow people an introduction to casino play. I we don't use the same rules as a casino we are doing people a disservice.

We do not really have an option to running this weekly, at least not in the Merrion. It will have to be monthly or possibly twice monthly.

MrP

Hyzepher

At the moment it would be a bit unfair to judge this event on the basis of one outing - as only time will tell if we can sustain the level of participation. However, the event ran smoother than I expected with little or no complaints for anyone. In fact the only discussion surrounding the blinds, dealers and starting chips are insignificant and these things then to be subjective anyway - in fact most of the structure wasn't too far removed from what the Fitz or Merrion use themselves.

The issue now is too keep this momentum up so that we can have a regular tournie with a predicted turnout - only then will we have some muscle to use against the venues.

btw - Pud don't you think its time to change your sig?

Hyzepher

Marq

Originally posted by cormie
would it be ok for us to swap and let me deal?

Only if you deal the three cards of the flop all at once!

quozl

i like the idea of alternating between 50 and 25 tournaments (both freezeout). I'd rather be playing for 25e than 50 as I get the same amount of play either way. 50e is more than i want to be paying for a nights poker.

Greg

careca

I thought it was very well organised and I would certainly play every month, maybe even twice monthly.

The dealing was probably the only thing I thought could be improved. I still say it should be a complete random draw and then decide the dealers, rather than picking dealers for each table and then doing a draw.

If there are going to be designated dealers it might be an idea to standardise the whole dealing thing. Like collecting the chips, putting the burn cards aside under the chips and basically telling players when they are next to play and how much to call, etc. Also, I'm not sure it was necessary to shout out when a player was all in as it seemed to distract other tables. And yes, I know this was basically a bit of craic and I'm all up for that.

Overall, well done and thanks to the organisers for all their hard work. Look forward to the next one.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hyzepher

btw - Pud don't you think its time to change your sig?

Hyzepher

Done:ninja:

Decker

Hi,

Congratulations on an excellently run tournament, on a par with any similar tournament run by the casinos … except the dealers didn’t wear white shirts and little dickey bows, just something to bear in mind for next timeJ

Some general points:

Day/Time
Good choice of day and time. I would guess most people are free on a Monday night and you didn’t have to stay up until 3am, a big plus for school nights. I’m not sure if you could get as many people to commit on a Saturday, especially if the tournament was to start later/finish later. Thursday/Saturday nights seem to be big “out on the town” nights, though a Saturday after noon might be a possibility.

Dealers
Having a dealer/player slows the game down and as importantly I think it’s unfair on the dealer/player, as they can’t give their full concentration to their hand. The first table I was at was getting about 10 hands per level of blinds, for the first 3 levels anyway. I would guess that this was quite a bit above average, as our dealer/player quickly became dealer onlyJ

Blinds
Started with 60 times the big blind this could probably be tweaked a little upwards but overall seemed to be ok.

Rules
Be as strict as the casinos with regards to the rules, making string bets etc even if the person is a beginner. Having the same rule applied differently to different people based on their level of experience or some other criterion is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

How often/How much
€50 while not a lot of money is quite a bit to be spending weekly on one game, though I might be tempted to give it a go bi-weekly.

Alex

DeVore

Think about it for a moment. We cant afford (and dont want to pay for) pro dealers, we certainly dont want everyone dealing their turn as thats generally accepted to be the *worst* situation. We cant ask the dealers to sit out and not play especially as they arent getting a dickie bird for dealing, so we are left with player dealers and personally I'm very grateful to them. *shrug*

The way we did the draw was that we did everyone randomly. Then we looked through each table and found one person on each that we could ask to deal for us and moved them to seat one, swapping the other play to their seat. This made it as random as we could get and still avoid confusion at each table!

DeV.

Hyzepher

To be fair the dealing wasn't the only thing slowing play down. There were times when people were slow about posting blinds, people who constantly go into the tank to think about everything, the odd split/multi way pots that take time to sort out, the constant running over to other tables to see people getting knocked out etc.

The reality is that even pro dealers are only marginally faster than a designated 'rookie' dealer. Even in the fitz - with dealers - the blinds tend to go up one a round (or near to it). I know people were saying that the final table seemed quicker with the dealer but I think that has more to do with less flops than anything.

Hyzepher

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Juan Pablo
I did get called once on it and hit a board of AKx and won a decent pot (would have been more but for a very commendable put down from my opponant on AQ) but obv everyone is entitled to their stragtegies on how to play AK.

I think that was me, I was in BB and thought for ages, thinking you'd only raise that much with pocket pair or AK, decided to have a look at the flop and it came AK5, you push all in and I had to put you on AA, KK, 55, or AK.