What makes a big/great club?

cruiserweight

I do not know if this has been discussed before.What makes a club big or great? The teams that finished in the top four in the premiership last season all have different reasons to call themselves big. Liverpool have a great tradition and are the most successful british club of all time, Arsenal have a great team at the moment, Man Utd are the richest club in the world and Chelsea probably have the greatest buying power!

But which of these traits makes a club big. In my opinion it is a combination of the four factors that I outlined above. Three of the clubs named above have a great history, money, buying power and great players. Chelsea lack the great history, so it is up to the current players to create that history for future Chelsea teams.

If you look to the continent it is the same, there are clubs that you automatically know are big Juventus, Milan, Real madrid, Bayern Munich, Barcelona etc. But then there are other teams, are Valencia big? What about Marseille? Are these truely big clubs?

Big Ears

Me and I think Sikes had quite a heated debate over this before , and that answer to what makes big club is , many things as different people have different definition of Big .

But great club , I suppose great could only be used for clubs that win things .

cournioni

A club with plenty of fans from all across the world and a club that could fill a 55000+ Capacity week in week out without any problems.

I guess it can also be put down to success but then again successful clubs gain fans from being successful.

I don't think it is down to money at all.

cruiserweight

Of course yes I forgot fan base. A big or great club needs a large fan base! You will often see people wearing a Liverpool or Man Utd shirt, but how many people do you regularly see wearing a Chesterfield jersey(not many, outside Chesterfield that is)

JohnnyBravo

A club with plenty of fans from all across the world and a club that could fill a 55000+ Capacity week in week out without any problems.


Gotta to disagree with that one barcelona used not fill up that amount but were still considered a big club

jesus_thats_gre

Its hard to say.. I would certainly put most of it down to history... A club with a long winning tradition say like Liverpool, Arsenal and United... Teams like Chelsea, Newcastle and Blackburn can or could win the championship but would not be classed in the same category as the big boys.. Its certainly a combination of things, being able to fill a stadium even when you are not doing so well is certainly one, having a huge fan base around the world, being able to attract big players without having you use money as the deciding factor...

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by cruiserweight
but how many people do you regularly see wearing a Chesterfield jersey(not many, outside Chesterfield that is)

while with United its different, how many people from Manchester do you see wearing a Man Utd shirt

_blank_

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
while with United its different, how many people from Manchester do you see wearing a Man Utd shirt

JTG: Do you support a team in the English Premier League?

Do you come from the town/city/village where this team is based?

edit*/

Teams like Manchester United, Liverpool and to a lesser extent Arsenal have always had supporters in Ireland, for what ever reason. This is going back to the 50's and probably before.

JohnnyBravo

Here we go

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by seansouth
JTG: Do you support a team in the English Premier League?

Do you come from the town/city/village where this team is based?

edit*/

Teams like Manchester United, Liverpool and to a lesser extent Arsenal have always had supporters in Ireland, for what ever reason. This is going back to the 50's and probably before.

It was a joke...

eirebhoy

The biggest club in the world is the one with the biggest fanbase IMO. Teams with big fanbases were obviously successful at some point in the past so history is taken into account.

sikes

Originally posted by Big Ears
Me and I think Sikes had quite a heated debate over this before , and that answer to what makes big club is , many things as different people have different definition of Big .

But great club , I suppose great could only be used for clubs that win things .

oh hell yeah we did...not sure if we came to any conclusion tho...

think its fair to say everyone has a different opinion of what defines a big club...

its difficult to decide on fan base..cos you have different types of fans and how well they support the club...how many matches to they go to etc...people have to understand that supporting united, for example, a few years ago became the fashion...you had girls who knew nothing about football going out and buying jerseys etc, do you include them?

btw this is not making fun of united in any way.

_blank_

I agree completely with sikes here.

It is the type of fan that he has described that has given real or proper( However you want to term it) United fans a bad name.

The fact a hundred million screaming Malaysian school girls wear Manchester United replica jerseys does not automatically make them a big club.

What makes Manchester United a big club is the fact that they have a long and proud history. Maybe not always successful, maybe not always great, but always well supported by real, knowledgeable fans. When they were relegated to the Second Division ( League 1...sheesh ) in the 1970's they maintained the level of support, the same amount of people went to the games as did when they were in the First Division.

I find it laughable that people take a pop at United for having so called "Out of town" fans. Granted
jesus_thats_gre was having a laugh, and I may have over-reacted a slight bit, but still, I feel this point is worth making.

A lot of Irish people support Celtic, another foreign team, playing in a foreign league, but they never seem to get the same treatment doled out to Irish supporters of Manchester United. The fact that teams such as the two mentioned, along with others like Liverpool and further afield Real Madrid and Barcelona have this support from people living in other countries, let alone other cities, proves that the clubs do indeed have a long and proud tradition that must have appealed to people with a passion for the game many many years ago.

Many of us support the clubs that were/are supported by our fathers. The reason they support the team they do, is because their own fathers may have done so too, it is a tradition passed down. I doubt if our grandfathers decided to support Manchester United/ Liverpool/ A.N Other F.C because they were the "stylish" club of the day.

A club is truly a "big/great" club if it has tradition and history which has helped it to find fans the world over.

Of course I could be totally wrong, and have been brainwashed by the brand that is ManYoo. But that's another argument.

cournioni

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
while with United its different, how many people from Manchester do you see wearing a Man Utd shirt

Alot more than City and that is for sure.

por

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Alot more than City and that is for sure.

I would not be sure about that PORNAPSTER. I was under the impression that City had a greater following in Manchester itself, whereas the Utd fans came from further a field. Similar to Roma and Lazio in Rome.

On the topic of a club being big\great. I believe it has a lot to do with tradition mixed with current success. Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal were all successful in the past and are currently very strong. Chelsea have a long way to go to get to that level. On the other hand a team like Blackpool were a big club in the 40s, 50s but not anymore.

Hairy Homer

Well that's an easy question to answer. Clearly it’s all about trusted brands.

The clubs that will succeed in the marketplace of major championships are those with the strongest brands, trusted by the largest transnational customer base and who have management with the ability to leverage that brand equity to maximum advantage.

We at the Peeled Banana Institute wholeheartedly endorse the concept of the Great Club and say that it is time to do away with the outdated, feudal, atavistic travesty of sport that is international football.

The recently completed Euro 2004 championship illustrated the point perfectly.

Who delights for Greece?

Greeks.

On the other hand a victory for Manchester United whose brand is trusted all over the world is a signal for global celebration.

Such a mediocre—if disciplined, diligent and determined team—as Greece only won because many of the supposed contenders had crucial weaknesses in their teams. England had no midfield general and no attacking threat on the left; Portugal for all the brilliance of Figo and Rui Costa (occasionally) Maniche and Carvalho still had mediocre players in many positions; France had a poor defence. Italy lost their main attacker after one game.

International football imposes artificial restrictions limiting team selection to players with ties of ancestry, birthright or naturalisation to each country. Management does not have the freedom to go to the marketplace and trade for the best players to fulfil their requirements. How good would England have been if they had a left winger like Petrov? What could Italy have achieved with Baros? And just imagine if Sol Campbell were a Frenchman?

Only club football, or as we like to think of it: franchise football, offers the potential for great players—acting on their own free will and in their own best interests— to find great clubs that allow them to truly compete with their peers. International football is hindering this natural market movement and becoming an intolerable distraction to the smooth operation of great club franchises.

What benefit does Manchester United get from losing its players to a ‘national’ side several times a year? Why should Juventus accept the risk of Pavel Medved suffering an injury while playing for an entity with which it has no other interest?

We advocate doing away with international football competition altogether and letting these great branded franchises explore the limits of their potential by competing freely on a worldwide level playing field.

To fill the void left by international football we would advocate that the larger clubs leverage their brands by establishing similarly named clubs in leagues other than their own. For example Manchester United FC could establish a German franchise called Manchester United FV (fussball verein); a French one called Manchester United CF (Club de Futbol) and maybe even an Irish one Manchester United FP (foireann peile).

Then the French and Irish players could occasionally play for their franchisees in France and Ireland respectively, perhaps the same number of times each year that they would previously have played international football. That way the regional fans get to cheer on their countrymen a few times a year (until such times as we cure ourselves of this silly inefficient notion of national identity) while the great club franchises retain the profits while enhancing the overall value of their brands.

In a very short while the market will rationalise even further and we will be left with one or two superbrands, with perhaps a third one having a distant chance of occasionally causing an upset, competing for the major honours. Then we will know that nearly half the world will celebrate each time one of the big teams win.

Now surely that’s a win win situation all round!

The Brigadier

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
while with United its different, how many people from Manchester do you see wearing a Man Utd shirt

Manchester aren't a Manchester club though!

The only professional club in Manchester is Man City - hence the "only one club in Manchester taunt" MUFC are actually based in the City of Salford. However their main supporter catchment area is in London.

Big Ears

I prefer internationel football , and wouldnt mind seeing the size of leagues reduced to fit in more internationel football .

nowdays people only start supporting winning , teams , even if they're broing . People should support a club for how exciting they are / if they are the local side .

[rant about bandwagon fans]
Man United shoudlnt have 1 Billion Chinese supporters , people in China should support Dalian Shide , Hong Kong FC and Shanghai Shenuia .

thers too many band wagon 'fans' in football these days , and a lot of them dont even watch the games , they just buy the jerseys and gloat about how good they are .
Theres nothing qrong with buying jerseys cause u like the look of them , but buying them because u 'support' them is stupid .

but with Internationel football there is very little bandwagon fans people support the country their from .


sadly I can see a rise in Arsenal and Chelsea fans in the coming future , and I dont mean real fans .[rant over ]

cournioni

Originally posted by por
I would not be sure about that PORNAPSTER. I was under the impression that City had a greater following in Manchester itself, whereas the Utd fans came from further a field. Similar to Roma and Lazio in Rome.

On the topic of a club being big\great. I believe it has a lot to do with tradition mixed with current success. Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal were all successful in the past and are currently very strong. Chelsea have a long way to go to get to that level. On the other hand a team like Blackpool were a big club in the 40s, 50s but not anymore.

If you've ever been to Central Manchester you'll find out that I am right. Every time I have been to Manchester (for example the Arndale Centre) I've seen more United jerseys than City jerseys. And that includes derby day in CoM Stadium.

sikes

by any chance would this be on match day when of course the fans flock to old trafforf sporting their jersey....

from what i have heard also city have a bigger fan base with in manchester

AngelofFire

Its a combination of everything, good management,Quality players,Good team spirit,good running of the club from upstairs,and ability to utilise rescources to full potential.If a football club is missing one or more of those factors than it is in trouble.For example liverpool are a huge team who have been underachieving for the last 15 years, their recent performances do not tesitfy to the size,potential and name of the club.With the amount of Money that houllier and evans spent over the years Liverpool should have won the premiership twice over and perhaps even the champions league.Maybe benitez will help them to get it right.

Big Ears

Pornapster how many of those people waring Jerseys are small kids and are quite possibly bandwagon fans ? (im not saying all small kids are bandwagon fans ) , im not trying to make a statement i am just interested if most of these people are small children and possibly just following a populal trend .

cournioni

Originally posted by sikes
by any chance would this be on match day when of course the fans flock to old trafforf sporting their jersey....

from what i have heard also city have a bigger fan base with in manchester

Read what I said again. I said that it included derby day in City of Manchester Stadium.

City possibly do have a bigger fan base within Manchester. I'm just saying that when in Manchester city centre you'll see more United jersey's than City jerseys. The reason why I made a reference to derby day was because both sets of supporters would be there on the day (they cannot play at home on the same day).

And big ears, most of the fans I've seen were in their 20's/30's.

The Brigadier

Can you put it down to success? Are Real Madrid the biggest club in the world with their 183 European Championships? Are Liverpool bigger than Manchester United with 4??

Can you put it down to attendances? Are Man City a bigger club than Arsenal???

Can you put it down to money?? Are Norwich a bigger club than Leeds???

Can you put it down to history?? Are Everton a bigger club than Chelsea??

It is all subjective.....as long as you are supporting your team why should you care if it is a big club or not....Oh, unless you a bandwagon jumping, status obsessed fan. (I'm looking at you majority of Man Utd fans.....)

cournioni

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Oh, unless you a bandwagon jumping, status obsessed fan. (I'm looking at you majority of Man Utd fans.....)

:rolleyes:

The Brigadier

Yes, you will see more Man Utd shirts in London than Arsenal shirts, Chelsea shirts or any other team....

These are the bandwagon jumpers....Now, I'm not saying all MUFC fans are bandwagoners, but they have a higher proportion than other clubs.....

So is that how you define a big club, the more bandwagoners the bigger the club???

Pepe LeFrits

Ah, trying to define an imagined concept... always fun!

cournioni

Nah, I'm just pissed off with that stereotype. Sorry.

I reckon a big club has to have many, many loyal supporters (in which United have) and could fill a 67500 capacity stadium for a second division match. It's just that these so call bandwagon jumpers seem to have given United a bad name, and one in which I think it doesn't deserve. If you took all of these bandwagon supporters away United would still be a massive club.

_blank_

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
a massive club.

Like Manchester City?......

The Brigadier

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Nah, I'm just pissed off with that stereotype. Sorry.

It is not a sterotype. There is a reason Man Utd are the most hated club in England. And it is not because of their success. Liverpool were more successful during their golden era of 4 European Cups, however they were not despised in the same way at all..

_blank_

Originally posted by The Brigadier
It is not a sterotype. There is a reason Man Utd are the most hated club in England. And it is not because of their success. Liverpool were more successful during their golden era of 4 European Cups, however they were not despised in the same way at all..

The reason Manchester United are "The Most Hated Club" in England ( does this ignore the Millwalls of this world? ) does stem from their success, in a roundabout way.

In the late 70's and and through to the end of the 80's there was no sexiness attached to the sport. That didn't happen until Sky got their hands on the rights, and glamourised the sport, making it the "in" thing. What happened then was that Manchester became the most successful Premier League team, so they were glorified for the most part in the early days of their success. This lead to the "in" people jumping on the bandwagon. The people who did this are the kind of people already alluded to in this thread. The people who wear the jersey and rub their hands when United win, but fall back into the shadows when they don't. In essence, the so called "Prawn Sandwich Brigade". These people are not supporters of Manchester United, or even fans, they are Glory Hunters, and United just seem to have attracted a lot of this type of person, simply because they were the first successful club in this new era of sexiness, and these people have clung on to the club.

The Brigadier

Ask any fan in England which teams they hate and you will get 1. Local Rival 2. Man Utd

This was around before the advent of Sky. I remember Man Utd being hated in the 80s, I have had this discussion before with fans of an older vintage who remember Man Utd being hated in the 70s and 60s....

Admittedly the advent of SKY has drawn even more of the prawn sandwich brigade....

The Muppet

Is it not rather ironic that this subject is being discussed on an Irish bulletin board by Irish supporters of English clubs. What Premiership club just has a local fanbase? None because they couldn't survive financially if the did , Wimbledon for example.

When it comes to numbers Man Utd ar the best supported club in the world with an estimated 50 million supporters world wide , they can't all be from Manchester just like all Liverpool and Arsenal supporters are not all from their Liverpool and London . To slag united because their fans are not from Manchester must be the most stupid jibe thrown at united fans and god knows we 've had a lot of them particulaly over the last decade.

The Brigadier

Well, I'm a Palace fan from London.

The thing that irks people is not that Man Utd fans don't come from Manchester.....but the attitude of their fans. Man Utd fans as a group have an atitude. They think they have a god given right to success, and I have lost track of the number of times I have shut up a Man Utd fan ranting by asking him to name the last three managers before Alex Ferguson.....

The Muppet

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Well, I'm a Palace fan from London.

Well you're in the minority here then.;)

BTW that could be said about any club and is no guage of whether you're a fan or not .

cournioni

Originally posted by seansouth
Like Manchester City?......

I wasn't being sarcastic. With City I am.

cournioni

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Well, I'm a Palace fan from London.

The thing that irks people is not that Man Utd fans don't come from Manchester.....but the attitude of their fans. Man Utd fans as a group have an atitude. They think they have a god given right to success, and I have lost track of the number of times I have shut up a Man Utd fan ranting by asking him to name the last three managers before Alex Ferguson.....

By the way, I've known bandwagon jumpers from London who go from QPR, Palace and Millwall fans to Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs fans. Can the same be said about them? Big deal if they're all London clubs, its still jumping the bandwagon.

The Brigadier

Bandwagon jumpers are bandwagon jumpers...however Man Utd have a higher proportion than other clubs.

I do disagree with anyone becoming a Spurs fan being called a Bandwagon jumper though....:D

The Muppet

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Bandwagon jumpers are bandwagon jumpers...however Man Utd have a higher proportion than other clubs.

Basic maths should tell you that because they have more supporters than any other team they are bound to have more fair weather supporters as well but that's not the clubs fault now is it?

Big Ears

Success brings band wagoners , to fix the problem Man United should get relegated .

Im sure David Beckham has got a few bandwagoners for united from the far east .(but their probably Real fans by now )

sikes

PORNAPTSTER: of course there would be more united jerseys in the centre of manchester because a large portion of the united attendance would be tourists.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by The Muppet
Basic maths should tell you that because they have more supporters than any other team they are bound to have more fair weather supporters as well but that's not the clubs fault now is it?

And basic english should tell you that I said a higher proportion of bandwagoners....:rolleyes:

Just accept the fact that most Man Utd fans are reviled by proper football supporters and get over it.

The Muppet

Originally posted by The Brigadier
And basic english should tell you that I said a higher proportion of bandwagoners....:rolleyes:

Just accept the fact that most Man Utd fans are reviled by proper football supporters and get over it.

I,ve no doubt thats the view of the narrow minded minotity but most "proper supporters" realise that every successful club will attract a certain amount of fair weather supporters and that true Man United fans are no different than fans of any other club.

Bateman

Pre-1990 Man Utd fans, for the most part, have a great footballing knowledge. It's the post-1993 plastic football fans that are reviled, and even then you have to decide whether you want to call these people fans, supporters, or either, or neither. When United go away, their support is some of the loudest and most partisan in England. You just have to despair though, when you hear some of the fools that claim to support United, go on and on. And then when you tall them a few home truths, many will tell you to "relax, it's only football". Which says a lot.

To be a big club, a club needs to win trophies (regularly), have a hardcore following (quality is more important than quantity in this respect), and being hated by most other teams caps it.

cournioni

Originally posted by sikes
PORNAPTSTER: of course there would be more united jerseys in the centre of manchester because a large portion of the united attendance would be tourists.

On derby day in CoM stadium, United would get 7000 at the most. And they would all be the hardcore following from Manchester. I've been to Manchester in the middle of summer too, and you'll still see lots of United shirts.

Ok, this may not be a good example of what I'm talking about as it is a ratio. But have you seen the amount of United fans from Coronation Street on the sofa in Soccer AM? They are all from Manchester. How many City supporters do you get on the sofa from Corrie? Two or three. That should give you a decent idea of what I am talking about.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by Bateman
being hated by most other teams caps it.

This makes Man Utd the worlds biggest club!:D