Minimum wage and the likes

damnyanks

Not sure if this is the right place but oh well

I've been hearing a lot how foreigners are taken in to do jobs because the Irish just wont do them. I've a friend that started in a new convenience store in town and is on 6:25 an hour. They are 18 and have worked usual student type jobs before. They are on 40+ hours a week at the moment and listed as full time staff.

Fair enough if they just got shafted or whatever. But all the other full time floor staffs are on the same wage the majority of them being foreign bar the 1 or 2 other Irish. Now the shop is new but its a franchise or whatever those sort of convenience stores are. Its also in town very good location high foot traffic.

They were also told they are not allowed anything from the shop for free. Now thats fine with regards to chocolate and other packaged items. It screws up the stock take when its eventually done. But they have a food counter where they are allowed nothing for free! Maybe things have changed since I worked in a place with a food counter but when I did you couldnt really do a accurate stock take on wedges or bits of chicken and so on.

The head manager keeps going on about loyalty to the company and so on. So far the friend has had to stay on 4 hours and 2 hours after her shift to do work (10 and 12 hour working days) with from what I gather no extra pay increase for those hours.

The friend being a student and living at home with their parents can afford to be fussy about the jobs they take and is now seeking employment elsewhere. However there are foreigners and others who probably cant afford to leave the job in the hope to find a better paying job.

So they are getting paid under minimum wage, dont get any sort of perk from the job and get messed around on their shifts.

So curious to what peoples opinions are. Are the Irish just fussy and expect high pay and to be treated well for low paying jobs or are places just taking advantage of peoples bad situations / bad cash situation.

I'm 20 now worked when I was 14 and got paid 12 pounds a night (8:30pm - 2am). Now people working the same shift get 32 euro a night (In a pub) and the tips have gone up a lot

Stephen

18 year olds can be paid less than minimum wage depending on their work experience.
I used work for a shop with a similar food counter, they also had a no freebies policy but it was impossible to enforce since managers were rarely ever there at night, and ****loads of the stuff was just going to be thrown out anyway.

Victor

As best I know there is a retail industry employment agreement that would set out particular details for shop workers.

Originally posted by damnyanks
I've been hearing a lot how foreigners are taken in to do jobs because the Irish just wont do them. I've a friend that started in a new convenience store in town and is on 6:25 an hour.

The full minimum wage doesn't kick in until, I think, 23.

Originally posted by damnyanks
They were also told they are not allowed anything from the shop for free.

Whoa! Not allow take things for free! From a shop!

Originally posted by damnyanks
The head manager keeps going on about loyalty to the company and so on. So far the friend has had to stay on 4 hours and 2 hours after her shift to do work (10 and 12 hour working days) with from what I gather no extra pay increase for those hours.

She would be entitled to pay at the appropriate rates and should ask for it.

damnyanks

Its not just the friend on the lower wage others are as well. A good few of them are over 23.

What I meant by getting free things is such as on their break perhaps getting a free roll. Any place I've worked that has any sort of food service usually gave you some sort of meal on your break. The manager keeps going on about loyalty to the company, pays them under minimum wage and wouldnt even let them take a free sandwich / roll. In actual fact if they ever get one they have to sign in with security that they payed for it.

Seraphina

if its a large franchise i doubt they're breaking any laws. they're usually quite careful about it, there's all sorts of ways to pay under the minimum wage(which itself has many requirements, i checked them out myself last year when i thought i was getting a raw deal) such as deductions for uniforms, meals etc.

however check out the legal break requirements and overtime, there's an offical site somewhere, just google labour law or something. at the end of the day though, she's hardly going to do anything if she's just gonna get another job, and the foreign staff probably dont know enough about the law and enough english to do anything either.

edit. re reading your post i would also have to point out that if she's asked to stay and agrees then she probably isn't entitled to overtime. this has happened to me before in work, and i've simply refused to stay and gone home. other times, when rostered and required to stay later than normal as part of an ordinary working day, i got double time.

Oriel

Originally posted by damnyanks
Not sure if this is the right place but oh well

I've been hearing a lot how foreigners are taken in to do jobs because the Irish just wont do them.

Come to a new culture, work your way in...
Would you prefer they sponged off our taxes?

Out of interest, what "skills"" have they?
/edit - a more direct question - why are they here?
S.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Sinecure
Come to a new culture, work your way in...
Would you prefer they sponged off our taxes?

Out of interest, what "skills"" have they?
/edit - a more direct question - why are they here?
S.

What an arsehole you are...

What skills did the Irish have when they went to other countries in the past?
F*ck all. They did all the menial ****ty jobs too.

Why were the Irish there?
To make money.

You can get off your high horse now.

Victor

Originally posted by Sinecure
Out of interest, what "skills"" have they? /edit - a more direct question - why are they here? S.

Retail work tends to be low pay, low skills work that many people don't want. There is a distinct pattern of language students working in retail.

damnyanks

It isnt a franchise exactly not sure what they are called. Sorta like Super Value the way they all fall under 1 brand name but are owned individually.

It is a low skilled job and is low payed for that reason. But really my question was (Got lost in the original post / wasnt clear) is

Are the Irish expecting too much pay for low paying jobs? Allegdly the Irish wont take the jobs that foreigners take (Atleast in Dublin) I'm gonna make a large assumption and guess that the majority of those would pay under 7 euro an hour.

Oriel

Originally posted by ChipZilla
What skills did the Irish have when they went to other countries in the past?
F*ck all. They did all the menial ****ty jobs too.

That's like what I said isn't it?
So, erm, your point being?

Lump

Originally posted by Stephen
18 year olds can be paid less than minimum wage depending on their work experience.
I used work for a shop with a similar food counter, they also had a no freebies policy but it was impossible to enforce since managers were rarely ever there at night, and ****loads of the stuff was just going to be thrown out anyway.

OMFG !!P!P!)!11111 THIEF!:!>?!>!>W:ALSDK



John

RicardoSmith

I'd say Irish people find it easier to find better jobs elsewhere in Ireland. Also any places that is paying low wages does so because it can. It not any more complex than that.

Taking anything free from where you work (even if offered) is always a bad idea. Avoid it if you can.

Jorinn

Originally posted by damnyanks
It isnt a franchise exactly not sure what they are called. Sorta like Super Value the way they all fall under 1 brand name but are owned individually.

It is a low skilled job and is low payed for that reason. But really my question was (Got lost in the original post / wasnt clear) is

Are the Irish expecting too much pay for low paying jobs? Allegdly the Irish wont take the jobs that foreigners take (Atleast in Dublin) I'm gonna make a large assumption and guess that the majority of those would pay under 7 euro an hour.

Um, I'm not so sure it's the fact that they're expecting too much, I think it could be the fact that they expect to be buy more than a pint and a packet of crisps after and hour's work.

I know there's a not a chance in hell I'd work for €6.50 an hour. I'd doubt I'd do anything for less than about €9 an hour unless there was commission involved. With comission involved at something I feel could be good for me I'dl work down to about €7.50 an hour.

That said I've had no problem finding a multitude of jobs at the moment. Seems to be plenty about in Dublin anyway.

ionapaul

If the dole was reduced I am sure we would see many more Irish faces in Dublin's shops and restaurants. There are enough lazy people in this country who would rather sit on their arse for a week than work 40 hours and only make a little more doing it. It is a pity that it is abused like that, that's the problem with any sort of welfare state, the vast majority of 'decent folk' do end up supporting the layabouts.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by ionapaul
If the dole was reduced I am sure we would see many more Irish faces in Dublin's shops and restaurants. There are enough lazy people in this country who would rather sit on their arse for a week than work 40 hours and only make a little more doing it. It is a pity that it is abused like that, that's the problem with any sort of welfare state, he vast majority of 'decent folk' do end up supporting the layabouts.

Actually if you been to a dole office recently you'd see that the vast majority of people in there are not Irish. So in fact I would reckon that if you reduced the dole you'd see even less Irish faces than you currently do.

Imposter

Originally posted by ionapaul
...that's the problem with any sort of welfare state, the vast majority of 'decent folk' do end up supporting the layabouts.

I know this is OT but it is possible to have a fairer system where people who are genuinely unemployed get a decent amount while those who have no intention of doing anything get virtually nothing. It's just that no government would have the spine to introduce such a system in Ireland.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Imposter
I know this is OT but it is possible to have a fairer system where people who are genuinely unemployed get a decent amount while those who have no intention of doing anything get virtually nothing. It's just that no government would have the spine to introduce such a system in Ireland.

At the moment if you claiming you have to prove that you are actively looking for a job, and they look for hard evidence of it. You need to have prove that you have applied fairly frequently for jobs, even jobs outside your area of experience, and that you have attened interviews etc. You need to show them the PFO letter and any letters you have to prove you case. If you don't get work after a certain time you have to do a course. Or at least thats my understanding of it. They also take into account your past experience and if you have a pattern of unemployment or unemployment.

I went through a patch of not getting contracts, because I was too senior for roles or the roles was too junior for me. (what a stupid phrase) Though I would have happily have done them. Even though I have an unbroken constant work history of about 15 years they gave me a hard time. About signing on. I only wanted my PRSI stamped up and no money. So I can only imagine the grief they give you if you were trying to pass up work.

How would YOU determine if someone is genuine or not?

Imposter

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
How would YOU determine if someone is genuine or not?

What they do at the moment is an attempt to prove someone is genuinely seeking work. It is possible to abuse though. How else do you explain people who are constantly unemployed? There are jobs out there even if people don't want to do them. People who are long-term-unemployed should be forced to take these jobs especially if they have done courses already and not been able to get jobs from those.

I was on the dole for about 3 months after college and I didn't have PFO's to give them. I was able to show them copies of emails i sent out but it's hardly rocket science ot be able to constantly come up with fake applications if that's enough to satisfy them.

What I'm talking about more long-term unemployed who don't want a job and others who try and abuse the social-welfare system in different ways.

RicardoSmith

If you've unemployed for a long time, for no good reason (and theres lots of good reasons why you can't work) , is that not enough proof?

Imposter

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
If you've unemployed for a long time, for no good reason (and theres lots of good reasons why you can't work) , is that not enough proof?

It is, but they still get the dole don't they?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Imposter
It is, but they still get the dole don't they?

"They" being?

ionapaul

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Actually if you been to a dole office recently you'd see that the vast majority of people in there are not Irish. So in fact I would reckon that if you reduced the dole you'd see even less Irish faces than you currently do.

Not sure if I understand. Do you mean even less Irish people would work for minimum wage if the dole was reduced? I would have thought (and tried to say this in my earlier post) that if the dole was halved or somelike similar, the layabouts who just want to be taken care of by the taxpayer would be forced to get a job, as the difference between the dole and the 40 hour minimum wage would be decent.
I do think we need serious welfare reform, leave the dole as it is for the first 12 months, then reduce it accordingly after this period, unless proof of inability to work is produced. Maybe this is harsh, but it might wake up those who don't want to work or believe that minimum wage work is 'too lowly for me'. Fine, don't work for 7 euro an hour, but don't stay on the dole for over a year either.

Imposter

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
"They" being?

They being the people who won't work as they don't want and/or probably think they are better off on the dole.

Jimi-Spandex

Let me see, do you really think that halving the dole is going to solve anything?

You are then providing people with funds that no-one can survive on. This would almost certainly lead to an increase in poverty causing crime. Smart move.

What's the point in that?

Imposter

Originally posted by Jimi-Spandex
Let me see, do you really think that halving the dole is going to solve anything?

You are then providing people with funds that no-one can survive on. This would almost certainly lead to an increase in poverty causing crime. Smart move.

What's the point in that?

Being poorer should be the kick in the a$$ that's required to get them to join the workforce. Do you think the crime would get much worse with them not getting as much free money? If so why and who do you think is causing most of the crime at the moment?

RicardoSmith

The post is about Irish people not taking the jobs on minimum wage and then if the dole was reduced would we see more Irish people in these jobs.

I'm saying the most people you see in a dole office aren't Irish (or don't look Irish), so you'd those moving into these jobs rather than Irish people.

Like to see some stats on the long term unemployed and the ratio of non nationals vs Nationals on the dole. Bit like the stats from the maternity hospitals.

Imposter

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
The post is about Irish people not taking the jobs on minimum wage and then if the dole was reduced would we see more Irish people in these jobs.

I'm saying the most people you see in a dole office aren't Irish (or don't look Irish), so you'd those moving into these jobs rather than Irish people.

Like to see some stats on the long term unemployed and the ratio of non nationals vs Nationals on the dole. Bit like the stats from the maternity hospitals.

Okay I see what you're saying now but perhaps those non-nationals you see in the social-welfare office don't have work permits (I don't know i'm just guessing here), are getting other payments and not dole, in which case they can't take any jobs.

I'd just like to see anyone and everyone who can work (legally and physically) and has not done so for a relatively long period of time be forced into a situation where they have to.

ionapaul

Good point regarding an increase in crime resulting from halving/reducing the dole and welfare. However, another question is raised (maybe not for this forum or thread) - even if crime is lower, is that in itself a reason to pay people to do nothing? 'Pay me to sit around, or I will rob and mug people'! You could liken the policy of appeasement towards Nazi Germany during the 30s to this. I know that is going too far, but you get my point. Even if it is more expensive in the end to keep people in prison rather than sitting on their asses, lowering the dole may be the 'proper' thing to do.

emertoff

I honestly can't believe some of the posts about unemployment and the dole. I think the dole for a single person is something like €140 pw. I know there may be other allowances for rent etc. but you would think that these people were laughing themselves to sleep every night at how they were beating the system.

In the global economy, short-term contracts will increasingly become the norm and more people will have to handle periodic unemployment as an expected occurence in their lives.

I'd be interested to know the proportion of GDP spent on social welfare in this country. I would hazard a guess that it is significantly less than the millions spent each year keeping public service bureaucrats in jobs that have no value to the economy at all. It's the likes of Lawlor and Haughey who should be criticised for taking 'taxpayers' money rather than the unemployed, the vast majority of whom are not exactly chuffed to be on the dole. If a person has specific qualifications and experience, provided they are not being overly fussy, they have a right to seek employment which is suitable for them. Otherwise we might as well live in a police state. Ireland already has the greatest income inequality in Europe.