Israel & Middle East & Peace

halkar

Here we go again, lets not turn this into an anti-Semitism discussion of some sort
This is nothing to do with Jews but mainly Israeli politics so lets keep it this way.

Found this article in Guardian about Israeli involvement with Kurds and involvement of Israel in Kurdish movements that can cause Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey to divide. To me looks like Israel is playing with fire and they have no one to blame but themselves. If this gets too carried away they will get Americans involved again and waves of terror and what not. Are we doomed? Before Israel, US had no interests in ME, to me it looks like Israel dragging US into this and when US involved other countries gets involved then we have a big mess like now. It is know that Mossad uses it influence to get other Jews to involve in missions against US interests or directly to US and make it look like Arabs doing so that US backfires on Arabs.

Here is another link to a conspiracy theory to 9/11. It is a long read but it does make you think.

I'm not going to get into another argument about Israel and the M. East, but this comment struck me a bit:

Before Israel, US had no interests in ME, to me it looks like Israel dragging US into this and when US involved other countries gets involved then we have a big mess like now.

The US has had an interest in the M East since WW2. They used their political powers to restrict Soviet expansionism, and wooed nations like Saudi Arabia to become almost client states. Blaming Israel for US involvement isn't any excuse for the US. They've had their fingers in many pies for decades, and Israeli actions, while may increase those interests, didn't create them.

ArphaRima

That link leads to a piece created by a serious anti-semite. He argues his point in the most simplistic fashion, without ever proving anything.

That conspiracy theory is exactly that. A theory. It takes every event of the last few years, makes a jewish connection, calls them zionist mafia, and declares conspiracy!

Marq

Yup, was all with him til it became apparent that he's an unashamed anti-semite. Seemed to me that he started at the premise that Zionism is responsible for the attacks, and then looked for inconsistencies in the official story, or "facts" to back up this theory.

Ah well, I do like a good conspiracy theory

woody

Halkar no offence pal but

Your inital article to be is flawd why...The People of the middle east dont need Israel to destablize the region they do it themselves and would do it without any US or Israeli input.

And as for saying this article is not anti-semtic well it is and claiming that Israeli's could be involved in 9/11 is as obsurd as saying Osama Bin Laden will be recieving the Nobel Peace Prize next week.

To be and from your previous posts you are in my eyes anti-semtic, anti-Israeli and Pro - Arab and Pro - Anarachy (Support of Causes in the middle east that would destroy you for the very fact that you are a westerner).

As for Turkey it is stable enough, Syria is a Terrorist country and hopefully will be destroyed in the Future and as for the Kurds there has always being Agoz and Sayret Golani Troops and Speical Forces from Israel helping them....

sceptre

See, you might have been doing OK until

Originally posted by woody
(Support of Causes in the middle east that would destroy you for the very fact that you are a westerner)

and especially

Syria is a Terrorist country and hopefully will be destroyed in the Future

Looks like you're starting from a position that carries its own emotional baggage.

halkar

Woody, I did not say that the article was not anti-semitic I said lets not turn this into an anti-Semitism discussion of some sort and keep it as Israeli politics rather than bringing back the holocoust strories. For how long are we gonna make the same excuses and accuse of people being anti-semitic because they don't like Israel's actions.

If you want to insult me, call me anything you wish, if you think I am anti-semitic fine by me if you think i am pro arab and pro anarchy that is fine by me too but use PM next time.

I read the article and it is far from serious than what is there I think Your special Israeli forces can do nothing when they find the Iranians and Turks against them and it will not be like facing palestinians throwing stones? What will they do then? Show off their special wmds?

woody

The Turks unofficially are an Ally of the Israeli's as for SF intervention with Kurds this I don't understand, I am not trying to insult you but to me anti-israeli sentiment is linked with anti-semtism.

If I did insult you I apologise.

sceptre

Originally posted by woody
to me anti-israeli sentiment is linked with anti-semtism.

Might be the same thing to you (or might even be said by some of the same people at times)but just to clarify, if I criticise any aspect of Israeli foreign policy, would you think of me or decry me for being anti-semitic?

With that in mind, am I anti-British if I do it to a London government, anti-American if I do it to a Washington government or anti-Fijian if I say something nasty about the boys over in Suva?

bonkey

Originally posted by woody
Your inital article to be is flawd why...The People of the middle east dont need Israel to destablize the region they do it themselves and would do it without any US or Israeli input.

Never thought I'd see you admit that the Israeli's weren't a Middle Eastern people. What happened to it being their rightful place and all that?

and claiming that Israeli's could be involved in 9/11 is as obsurd as saying Osama Bin Laden will be recieving the Nobel Peace Prize next week.

I'd agree. Its about as absurd as saying that the "official" version of what happened and who was behind it is unquestionably accurate.

Syria is a Terrorist country and hopefully will be destroyed in the Future

Ah. Maybe you did indeed include the Israeli's in the people of the Middle East who are a destabilising influence. Or is this just a personal, in-no-way-to-be-taken-as-representative wish for violence to be enacted on others because you disagree with their way of life?

jc

woody

Bonkey are you taking the Mick, yes some of Israels Citizens are european,Yank,African and even Korean but the Jew has been there well before the Arab meaning the Muslim.

If you remember from the Bible the Jewish people we divded into tribes and spread around the globe and Israel now is a nation which has a common bond for all Jews to return to there orginal biblical homeland you might not agree but thats the way they see it.

As for the Syrians they have been an agressive nation towards Israel since it's inception and they also back Hezbollah in Lebanon and so on so for.

There way of life would be respected if they just left Israel along as with other nations.

And Israel is the only democratic "Civilised" nation in the region the rest have despot's running them or slave driving monarchys.

At least people in Israel have rights and are not mere shackles of society like people are in Saudi,Kuwait,Iran and Syria.

halkar

Originally posted by woody
The Turks unofficially are an Ally of the Israeli's as for SF intervention with Kurds this I don't understand, I am not trying to insult you but to me anti-israeli sentiment is linked with anti-semtism..

Tensions has been running high between Turkey and Israel since war in Iraq started and something like this going on will get Turkey as well as Syria and Iran and of course Iraq worrying. Regardless how pro-democratic Turkey is they will not let their borders changed nor Syria nor Iran. Anti-Semitism or not but what is Israel doing? Create another Gaza in North Iraq?

woody

Israeli SF might be merely setting up allies etc in case of any action in the future (when i dunno) against the likes of Iran and using Kurdistan as a launching point even though they have plenty of C130's just a theory.

Also it is good to have allies in iraq for intel purposes.

halkar

Launching points? By what rights? US lost its points in Saudi Arabia thinking that they could establish themselves in Iraq (which did not happen) and now they are left homeless in the region. Though there are rumours that US is looking for more bases in Turkey but doubt that will happen either. Bases in Turkey are belong to Nato not US and Turks have showen that they are not interested in opening them for US actions last year when US invaded Iraq. Do you think what US couldn't do in Iraq that Israel will be able to do? What will happen next year when the country goes to elections and they select a Pro-Islam government? I dare to be an Israeli in Iraq regadless if it is North Iraq or South.

woody

I know one thing if the IDF were in Iraq they would do a better job that the Coalition the Yanks have even are taking on Israeli tatics as they are better tatically to deal with the Arab mentality both militarily and on a civilian level.

The Israelis have'nt lost a war yet and without the americans like the 6 day war,yom kippor, 1982 Invasion of Leabanon etc...

halkar

Originally posted by woody
I know one thing if the IDF were in Iraq they would do a better job that the Coalition the Yanks have even are taking on Israeli tatics as they are better tatically to deal with the Arab mentality both militarily and on a civilian level.

The Israelis have'nt lost a war yet and without the americans like the 6 day war,yom kippor, 1982 Invasion of Leabanon etc...

Yeah we are seeing everyday how IDF deals with Arab mentality on a civilian level. That is because they get away with it. Maybe they do better job when it comes to blowing kids with missiles that throw stones at them but that is not the case in Iraq.

Maybe they do better job when it comes to blowing kids with missiles that throw stones at them but that is not the case in Iraq.

I'm not disputing that the IDF have fired on children firing stones. However, lose the weird idea that its only Palestinian kids (with stones) that are involved in the Palestinian resistance. Palestinians use light to medium weapons, just as most resistance groups do. So the IDF would be just as capable in dealing with Arab resistance.

But then again, they've shown that neither their current tactics, nor current anti-terrorist tactics work all that well against resistance groups.

Both Palestine and Iraq are dead ends. Theres very few ways that are capable of dealing with such resistance tactics, and I doubt too many of them would be allowed, even by Israeli standards.

bonkey

Originally posted by woody
Bonkey are you taking the Mick,

Not unless you were. I drew every single conclusion from what you said.

YOu said the people of the Middle East are well able to destablise things on their own, and don't need the US and/or Israel to help.

That means Israel does not constitute a people of the Middle East by your logic.

If you remember from the Bible

When the Bible is established as some sort of internationally recognised legal document, I'll take that point as being something other than completely worthless.

There way of life would be respected if they just left Israel along as with other nations.

Or, put a different way - their way of life would be respected if they stopped p1ssing other people off who disagree with it. Because they p1ss you off, and you disagree with it, you apparently think its ok to advocate the destruction of their nation.

On the other hand, were someone else to advocate teh destruction of the Israeli nation because they (the Israeli's) were p1ssing said person off because they disagreed with it....that would be unacceptable and anti-Semitic.

Practice what you preach. If you accept that its ok to seek the destruction of nations because you don't like the way they operate, then accept that others are perfectly justified in applying exactly the same logic to Israel.

And Israel is the only democratic "Civilised" nation in the region the rest have despot's running them or slave driving monarchys.

When you have to qualify your democracy by saying its the only "civilised" one (complete with quotes), I think you've already undermined the strength of your objectivity enough without me having to do any more....

At least people in Israel have rights

Yup, and in the results of a survey published today (seen on an Associated Press live Feed....don't have a link yet), over 50% of those Israeli's appear to have said they would consider Israeli Arabs to be a threat to national security, and over 50% said that they would like the government to encourage said minority to emigrate. A number slightly less than 50% (46% if memory serves) said that they would like to see voting rights removed from said Israeli Arabs.

All I'm pointing out is that your attitude is - in my opinion - as much a part of the problem as the attitudes of those who seek to destroy the nation of Israel, and many others who seek unreasonable and/or extremist goals on both sides.

All sides insist they are right and the others are wrong, and when you look at it closely enough, they all use the same logic.

Its ok for you to advocate the destruction of a nation, but not for someone else to advocate the destruction of Israel.

Its ok for you to insist that the Jewish religion promised Israel to the Jews, but its not ok for another people to say the same was promised to them by their religion.

Its ok for you to insist that Israel belongs to the Jews, despite not categorising them as a people of the Middle East, but for someone else to say that because you're not a people of the Middle East, you have no right to take land from those who are from there.

Its ok for Jews to settle in the Palestinian/disputed lands and not subject themselves to the current ruling authority of that region, but its not ok for people to return to Israel despite having lived there previously even if they agree to be bound by your democratic laws.

I'm not taking the Mick out of anything. I'm pointing out that you seem unable to post a non-insulting argument defending yoru stance without resorting to the exact same logically flawed uncompromising rhetoric that you criticise those you disagree with for using.

That attitude - as evinced by too many from all sides is the biggest obstacle to peace. It all stems down to one simple belief : "we are right because our interpretation of our religion says so". Both sides are basing everything on exactly that concept, and insist that they are right to do so, but no-one else apparently is.

Getting back towards the topic, if the allegations of Israel tampering in the affairs of the Kurds etc are true, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, as its the type of arrogant self-assured-act-of-righteousness that fits in exactly with what I'm describing. That said, I wouldn't consider it to be true on the basis of the linked article.

jc

BlitzKrieg

*applause*


(bonkey's my new hero :ninja: ww) )

DublinWriter

I love Tommy Tiernan's gag about the Israeli's applying for planning permission in the days of the old testament, and their application has just been approved.

Interestingly enough, there's a new and growing Jewish anti-Israeli movement growing in the UK at the moment.

It's hard to debate this issue with people who are entracted on both sides as it just degenerates into a 'they started it first' slagging match.

As far a God is concerned, it's basically just flees argueing over who owns the dog.

woody

Bonkey you have an answer to everything as I am a mod I can do what I want and my opinion and word is final.

Well I dont agree with any of your previous post's remarks as you my friend are the dominant anti-Israeli Poster here, I won't say anti-semtic as you might get your knickers in a twist...But they are one of the same.!

sceptre

You still haven't given me an answer to my post above woody.

I quote it below for your convenience.

Originally posted by sceptre
Might be the same thing to you (or might even be said by some of the same people at times)but just to clarify, if I criticise any aspect of Israeli foreign policy, would you think of me or decry me for being anti-semitic?

With that in mind, am I anti-British if I do it to a London government, anti-American if I do it to a Washington government or anti-Fijian if I say something nasty about the boys over in Suva?

woody

Sorry for that well yes I would still associate Anti-Israeli Sentiment in any form or manner weither it be foriegn policy or the issue in the PA.

The rise of anti-semtism is growing and far more quicker than the times of hitler.


As for other countries that is a different matter, why because Israel is being hit from everyside Primarliy because of what race and relgion they are.

I dont like France in regard to the war in Iraq but there actions in African countries are commendable.


If you critisise Israel in any form or manner yes I take it as being against them and the people who are there.


The Arab world and fact's and war's have proven want the total destruction of Israel for the Simple fundamental reason that they are different and civilised.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by woody
Bonkey you have an answer to everything as I am a mod I can do what I want and my opinion and word is final.

Actually nowhere in his post did he say, imply or even infer any of that. Do you take drugs?

Well I dont agree with any of your previous post's remarks as you my friend are the dominant anti-Israeli Poster here, I won't say anti-semtic as you might get your knickers in a twist...But they are one of the same.!

Yes, it’s a conspiracy. Everyone’s out to get you.

Nonetheless, you’ve singularly failed to even address, let alone refute, any of bonkey’s arguments. And so call him what you want, the fact remains that your behaviour now is that of a capricious child who will flip over a chessboard just because he realizes that he’s lost.

sceptre

Originally posted by woody
Sorry for that well yes I would still associate Anti-Israeli Sentiment in any form or manner weither it be foriegn policy or the issue in the PA.
<snip>
If you critisise Israel in any form or manner yes I take it as being against them and the people who are there.

So just to be very clear, if I criticise Israel in any way I'm anti-Israeli AND anti-Jewish (and hence anti-Semitic) automatically (I understood that part), but if I criticise Iraq, France, Korea or the US I'm not anti-Iraqi, anti-French anti-Korean or anti-American.

And you don't see a problem with this.

And I assume you wouldn't have a problem with my saying that Syria should be bombed into oblivion as you've already said this?

ssh

Israel is not a democracy. I live in a democracy. The country I live in is nothing like Israel. Israel is a theocracy which, when it suits it, will call itself a democracy. It's still probably a more just society than many of its neighbours, but I don't like both us and Israel being classed as "Free-world" countries.

Both officially and unofficially, Israeli society gives preferential treatment to Jews. They are entitled to do so, but let us not forget that that's not the same as what Ireland is. For that reason I don't see any particular reason to support them over any other country in the ME.

bonkey

Originally posted by woody
Bonkey you have an answer to everything as I am a mod I can do what I want and my opinion and word is final.

Ah yes. You can't actually defend your point, so instead you'll just accuse me of abusing my position.

Firstly, there are three mods, so if I am abusing my position, you can ask the other two to do something about it.

Secondly, there are admins, and a feedback forum, so that if the three mods combined are still tolerating an abuse of power, you can talk to the mods about it.

Thirdly, I challenge you to show me a single abuse of power in my post. I have attacked your stated opinion, rather than you. I have not insulted you, other than in that you are apparently insulted by someone disagreeing or even challenging your world view.

The only thing I recall having done to you as a moderator is to refuse in previous threads to allow you a free hand in insulting those who merely disagreed with your point of view. I won't apologise for that, but I seem to recall having to point out to you before how applying the rules equally to you and others is neither anti-Semitic nor anything personal. (I could be mistaken. It may have been Wrestlemania or someone else that this happened with, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't.)

I won't say anti-semtic as you might get vyour knickers in a twist...But they are one of the same.!

No, they are not one and the same thing, and your continued inability to understand the difference only serves to show how biased a point of view you have and what a waste of time it is actually bothering to try and discuss the issue with you when this is your stock answer to anything which is not blatantly unsupportable.

You're apparently not interested in showing me or others where I'm wrong, nor indeed do you appear interested in actually getting involved in any discussion regarding Israel for any reason other than to insist that any and all criticism is some Israeli/Jew-hating mindset which is just so inherently wrong that its not worth pointing out why it is wrong.

At the risk of using a cheap shot, its a mindset entirely consistent with the "our religion is right, and it says this, so the world must act likewise or be wrong" attitude that most contemporary religions suffer from and which ties nicely back to the attitude held by many on both sides of the conflict which - as I have previously mentioned - is something I see as a central and critical issue.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by ssh
Israel is not a democracy. I live in a democracy. The country I live in is nothing like Israel

Israel is a democracy. Just because its not like Ireland doesn't mean much, if anything.

Israel may not be an ideal example of democracy, but neither is Ireland, now that I think about it.

jc

tall_freak

honestly the whole argument of europe and france etc being antisemitic is (in my opinion) a big slap in the face to europe for all they have done to israel....

Israel is involved in the european league in terms of sports... all football matches, olympics, athletics etc are done in association with europe

European universities offer grants and aid to israeli universities for research and help and there is bilateral agreements as well

all israeli citezens can travel to europe without requiring a visa

Europe and israel have trade agreements etc that is not offered to any other country outside europe

Jews in europe have freedom like never before in history...

european leaders like silvio in italy even suggests to add israel to the EU!!!

So for someone to come out and say europe is becoming more antisemetic... and that europe has always been antisemetic , is a very big insult

and woody what is meant by the following remark

"The Arab world and fact's and war's have proven want the total destruction of Israel for the Simple fundamental reason that they are different and civilised."

The arab world is against israel for there treatment to the palestiniens... not because they are diffrenet... and do you think that israels treatment to the native palestiniens is civilised???

have u ever spoke to an arab

did u ever travel to arabic countries and see how "uncivilised" they are

The arab countries... all of them...offered israel a final and comprehensive peace deal in 2002 in the arab summit

withdraw to the 1967 border (as stated by almost all UN resolutions towrads israel)... give the plaestiniens there own country... and we are prepared for a full peace with trade agreements and ceasation of all hostilities...

israels never replyed... never offered any talks... and 2 days later went into jenin and demolished a big chunk of the cities center

so if people are against israels policies (which is diffrent from antisemetic)... i think there is a good reason for it

Woody, I've had Bonkey come down hard on a number of my points in relation to Israel, and to my memory, he was correct in most cases. I haven't seen him use his mod powers in an abusive way.

If you critisise Israel in any form or manner yes I take it as being against them and the people who are there.

Woody, I'm fairly pro-Israel. However, i reserve the right to criticise their policies, and not be labelled an anti-Semitic. Surely by your reasoning you're being anti-Semitic by being critical of Palestinians, or the other arab nations.

Criticising <spelling?> Israel is not anti-Semitic. however laying the blame for everything under the sun, in an unreasonable manner is. At least from my viewpoint.

"The Arab world and fact's and war's have proven want the total destruction of Israel for the Simple fundamental reason that they are different and civilised."

Theres multiple reasons for their wish for the destruction of Israel. If you go by the original reasons (from twenty or thirty years ago), it was a religious and regional thing. Nowadays its mostly for the treatment of Palestine. However, tall_freak, you're fooling yourself if you think that this is the only reason.

bonkey

Originally posted by tall_freak
The arab countries... all of them...offered israel a final and comprehensive peace deal in 2002 in the arab summit

In fairness, both sides have offered each other "final" peace deals.

jc

woody

Originally posted by tall_freak
honestly the whole argument of europe and france etc being antisemitic is (in my opinion) a big slap in the face to europe for all they have done to israel....

Israel is involved in the european league in terms of sports... all football matches, olympics, athletics etc are done in association with europe

European universities offer grants and aid to israeli universities for research and help and there is bilateral agreements as well

all israeli citezens can travel to europe without requiring a visa

Europe and israel have trade agreements etc that is not offered to any other country outside europe

Jews in europe have freedom like never before in history...

european leaders like silvio in italy even suggests to add israel to the EU!!!

So for someone to come out and say europe is becoming more antisemetic... and that europe has always been antisemetic , is a very big insult

and woody what is meant by the following remark

"The Arab world and fact's and war's have proven want the total destruction of Israel for the Simple fundamental reason that they are different and civilised."

The arab world is against israel for there treatment to the palestiniens... not because they are diffrenet... and do you think that israels treatment to the native palestiniens is civilised???

have u ever spoke to an arab

did u ever travel to arabic countries and see how "uncivilised" they are

The arab countries... all of them...offered israel a final and comprehensive peace deal in 2002 in the arab summit

withdraw to the 1967 border (as stated by almost all UN resolutions towrads israel)... give the plaestiniens there own country... and we are prepared for a full peace with trade agreements and ceasation of all hostilities...

israels never replyed... never offered any talks... and 2 days later went into jenin and demolished a big chunk of the cities center

so if people are against israels policies (which is diffrent from antisemetic)... i think there is a good reason for it

I am part Israeli and yes i have lived there and also in egypt and being in most Arabs countries with the exception of Iran and Iraq

woody

Originally posted by klaz
Woody, I've had Bonkey come down hard on a number of my points in relation to Israel, and to my memory, he was correct in most cases. I haven't seen him use his mod powers in an abusive way.



Woody, I'm fairly pro-Israel. However, i reserve the right to criticise their policies, and not be labelled an anti-Semitic. Surely by your reasoning you're being anti-Semitic by being critical of Palestinians, or the other arab nations.

Criticising <spelling?> Israel is not anti-Semitic. however laying the blame for everything under the sun, in an unreasonable manner is. At least from my viewpoint.



Theres multiple reasons for their wish for the destruction of Israel. If you go by the original reasons (from twenty or thirty years ago), it was a religious and regional thing. Nowadays its mostly for the treatment of Palestine. However, tall_freak, you're fooling yourself if you think that this is the only reason.

Klaz point taken on the anti-semtism.

What is going on in the PA is one thing but the previous wars in the last 50 years were to gain Israeli terrortory (Spelling aswell) and to destroy the state.

What is going on in the PA is one thing but the previous wars in the last 50 years were to gain Israeli terrortory (Spelling aswell) and to destroy the state.

Oh I agree. The Arab Nations have never been that interested in looking after one another, except when it comes to dealing with Israel. A common foe would unite them, except for the fact that they remember too well getting their heads handed back to them the last time they tried. And that was without US intervention.