Aer Rianta RIP

billy the squid

It just said on the radio that the government and the Unions have made a deal regarding the break-up of Aer Rianta.

I just have a question or two

What does this mean for the future of Shannon Airport

Will there be any job losses as a result.

personally I dont think that Shannon will survive very long competing with other bigger airports like cork and Dublin.

flogen

from what I know there have been independent audits saying that Cork may surivive, and Dublin, of course, but the rest are screwed... dont have a link to it tho, anyone?

This is FF being bull headed again, refusing to admit they were wrong.

Flogen

therecklessone

Originally posted by fcddunne
It just said on the radio that the government and the Unions have made a deal regarding the break-up of Aer Rianta.

Any details on what it entails?

ZENER

Full details http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=8257950&p=8z58xx4&n=8258064

As an employee at the airport I believe this is the first step toward the present government selling off Dublin Airport and turning it into another Eircom situation.

In my opinion they are fully aware that Shannon cannot pay its own way, Cork can but not without investment for the next couple of years.

Dublin will end up crippled with the debt from Cork and Shannon leading to alls from the minister to sell it off to clear its debts in a few years.

ZEN

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ZENER

In what way. Tell me how selling Eircom wasn't beneficial to the economy and tell me the corelation with the breakup of Aer Rianta.

In both cases infrastructure for which the taxpayer originally paid was/will be sold off for less than it's true value. This denies the Irish public welcome returns from it's investment in order to line the pockets of the few. Aer Rianta too is a profitable company contributing many millions to the country in profits and wages to it's employees and suppliers.

There is a frenzy in this country at the moment to sell sell sell at all costs, there's also a belief by a sizable portion of the public that these companies "are takin' money from the taxpayers pockets !!" Aer Rianta and other profitable state owned companies are being uttered in the same breath as companies that can't, by their nature, be profitable - CIE - An Post etc.

What is wrong with retaining these assets is state ownership and opening up the markets in which they operate

ZEN

Cork

Originally posted by ZENER


There is a frenzy in this country at the moment to sell sell sell at all costs, there's also a belief by a sizable portion of the public that these companies "are takin' money from the taxpayers pockets !!" Aer Rianta and other profitable state owned companies are being uttered in the same breath as companies that can't, by their nature, be profitable - CIE - An Post etc.
ZEN

What state companys are up for sale?

Was Dick Spring (LABOUR) not on the board of Eircom?

Why should Aer Rianta or CIE have a monopoly giving the Irish public a trird rate service?

It is the fear of competition that is worrying these companys. Some of the work practices at An Post were a joke. Its all fine as long as the tax payer picks up the tab.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Its all fine as long as the tax payer picks up the tab.

Then you've missed Zener's point Cork. Aer Rianta is a profitable company, and costs the taxpayer nothing. Now if you want to argue that Aer Rianta's customers are being short-changed then that is a different thing altogether. But customers does not equal taxpayers, unless you consider the millions of tourists who fly into Ireland every year as taxpayers as well?

By the way, did replacing Telecom Eireann with Eircom result in a noticeable improvement in service, or a decrease in prices? Both O2 and Vodafone have revealed their overcharging recently, and Vodafone made a significant profit in this state last year (over €250 million IIRC). Has competition in telecoms benefitted the Irish consumer?

Has it f*ck as like. Ask the boys over on Ireland Online...

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone
Then you've missed Zener's point Cork. Aer Rianta is a profitable company, and costs the taxpayer nothing. Now if you want to argue that Aer Rianta's customers are being short-changed then that is a different thing altogether. But customers does not equal taxpayers, unless you consider the millions of tourists who fly into Ireland every year as taxpayers as well?

So should we forget about those who are getting bad service from Dublin Bus & Aer Rianta.

Competition transformed Aer lingus. It will transform Aer Rianta & CIE.

Monopolys don't work. Aer Lingus made profits for years by ripping off consumers.

This would have gone on only for the introduction of Ryanair.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
So should we forget about those who are getting bad service from Dublin Bus & Aer Rianta.

Please don't put words in my mouth Cork. I never said that at all. What I did do was highlight again the fact that Aer Rianta is a profitable company, and costs the taxpayer nothing. Nada. Zilch. In fact, it provides revenue for the state!!!

Have you experienced bad service from Aer Rianta? Just because Michael O'Leary says its so, doesn't make it so...

Originally posted by Cork
Competition transformed Aer lingus.

Yeah. Into a mean-spirited, nasty little airline. Customer service? You're having a laugh...

ZENER

Why should Aer Rianta or CIE have a monopoly giving the Irish public a trird rate service?

In what way has either of these companies given a third rate service? The staff of both companies work extremely hard to provide a good service to all their customers - passangers and concessionaires. In return we get abuse from irrate customers of these privately run companies.

As for your reply re "MONOPOLY" it may interest you to know there are 9 airports in the republic of Ireland, Aer Rianta manage 3 of these - how then does that make them a monopoly ? Who manages the other 6 ?

What state companys are up for sale?

The ultimate goal for the breakup of the 3 airports under Air Rianta management is to leave Dublin Airport as a single entity ripe for plucking, surely this is obvious. Dublin Bus routes are under scrutiny for privatisation too - the thin edge of the wedge !

ZEN

ZENER

So should we forget about those who are getting bad service from Dublin Bus & Aer Rianta.

Do you have personal experience/examples of this ?

By and large the staff of Aer Lingus are still decent people who look after passangers, it's the companies attitude towards passangers that has changed, who could blame them really, Ryanair provide a cheap service with no frills/manners/aftersales service and get applauded by the public for it - whats good for the goose !!

Don't believe everything you read in the papers about Aer Rianta and state run companies and in particular note that the only time you hear O'Leary waffling on about "State Monopolies" is when there is bad press about his company in the papers and he wants to distract you from it.


ZEN

Cork

Aer Lingus used charge huge amounts for flights over to the UK. It was forced to change because of competition.

Without this competition - Aer Lingus would be still charging excessively for flights.

I was on a CIE bus last night. We were stranded for 30 minutes because the bus that the driver had to change was delayed.

Most semi states fear competition as it will force them to adapt.

They love being monopolies because it limits consumer choice and they get away offering consumers shoddy service.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Aer Lingus used charge huge amounts for flights over to the UK. It was forced to change because of competition.

Without this competition - Aer Lingus would be still charging excessively for flights.

I was on a CIE bus last night. We were stranded for 30 minutes because the bus that the driver had to change was delayed.

On the first count you're right. I won't deny that at all. My point remains the same though. In its efforts to out-Ryanair Ryanair, the airline has become a shadow of its former self. Service has suffered, and prices remain higher that those offered by Ryanair. Personally, I'll pay that little extra when I know I'll be treated like a human being and not livestock. Thats personal choice for ya...

As for your second point, I haven't a clue what you're trying to say to be honest. I will say that one bad experience doesn't make your case. My own experiences of public transport have been largely positive, but then I do use the Northern Suburban line on our rail network (usually very good service), and recently Dublin Bus have responded to their users needs. QBCs have been shown to be a quicker way of travelling to Dublin city for example.

As for Aer Rianta, I await some further details on how you think they have failed their customers.

BuffyBot

I was on a CIE bus last night. We were stranded for 30 minutes because the bus that the driver had to change was delayed.

Hate to burst your bubble there Cork, but it's no better with privatised bus services.

CIE don't have a monopoly on such things.

Originally posted by therecklessone
Personally, I'll pay that little extra when I know I'll be treated like a human being and not livestock. Thats personal choice for ya...

Well the choice to fly at the pre competition prices on the same airline is still there and if thats what you want you'll get a few more frills.
Indeed you can get a business class aerlingus flight to London on the BA web site for about €320 return.
You'll get fed nicely, have a little more seat pitch and newspapers at that side of the curtain away from the crowd.
You can also wait in the business lounge,sipping all the coffee you want,drinking all the whiskey you want, and eating all the crisps you want all thrown in for free as part of that €320 fare.
Thats business class for roughly what economy class used to cost in the bad days of no competition.

That fare is about €50 dearer if you book it on the aerlingus site as opposed to BA...yet you get told as you leave the flight " and for the cheapest aerlingus flights go to aerlingus dot com "
The mind boggles...
Altho nothing new there, they seem to have the same clues about competitive pricing ( ie none ) in aerlingus as say Eircom does when compared to the rest on broadband.
Same type of biz class service is available on BMI for a €100 cheaper still and that company still serve food in economy afaik.
No sign of them panicking either in the face of Ryan air competition.

I don't believe in monopolies,they are manipulative and not good for the consumers pocket.

jackofalltrades

I honestly can't see how beeaking up Aer Rianta will be good for Aer Rianta or the travelling public. I can't see how their Dublin Airport terminal could realistically continue providing a good service when saddled with all the debt of the current body and when it is forced to compete against a low cost terminal.

The fact is Aer Rianta has been competing effectively in foreign markets for years and has proven itself to be economically viable.

As the English market has clearly shown us, privatisation doesn't necessarily lead to a better service for customers.

Cork

The fact is Aer Rianta has been competing effectively in foreign markets for years and has proven itself to be economically viable.

But they don't have a monopoly abroad.

Why do semi states want monopolies?

Why can't they just compete?

People who travel from Cork to Dublin by bus are paying more than those who travel to Dublinfrom Galway by bus.

Why?

There is competition on the Galway route.

If Aer Rianta is efficent - they should not fear competion. I hope the government agrees to a second terminal. Let competion begin.

The country and consumers will gain.

DublinWriter

I must be getting old.

I remember in the late 70's/early 80's when there was a nine-month waiting period in Dublin to get a new phone installed. Nine months!!!!

I believe that the selling off of certain state assets is a good thing because state companies don't do service very well.

What I do object to however, is the selling back of state assets to the people who own them in the first place. Just look at what happened to the sale of Eircom.

Any monies raised by selling off state-assets should go back into healthcare and education.

I don't believe splitting up Aer-Rianta into three entities is a good idea, it just makes the root problem three times as hard to manage. Poor unimaginative management coupled with a lacklustre workforce who know they have state-guaranteed jobs for life.

Good riddens to Aer Rianta. I ranted about it in another thread tonight, and I won't go into the details of what a pain in the arse it is to go through Dublin Airport.

...hope he sells off RTE too while he's at it.

AngelofFire

Will a private company maintain the 10 million in subsidies given to shannon airport? i think not. this could spell a disaster for the local economy around shannon. Will a private company be trusted to keep airport taxes in line with inflation? Doubt it.The company that looks after the bin tax in my area hiked prices by 25% last january. Will a private company run all routes on dublin bus including non profitable ones and maintain concessions for the elderley,Handicapped and schoolchildren. no way.

Private companies will only work to serve their shareholders even if it means providing a bad service. To them a profitable service is more important than an efficent services. Essential public services like air rianta,Dublin bus etc should be the property of the state.

DublinWriter

Don't think that private companies hold the monpoly on hiking up prices...just look at the recent 50% in the TV licence fee and the gazillion% hike in passport application fees.

I do agree with the Cherry picking point though. I think any government tender, or sell off, should contain clauses that less profitable 'public service' areas of the service should be maintained as part of an overall operating licence.

The Shannon stop over is a joke though.

AngelofFire

but some state run companies need state subsidies to cover the cost of running these non profitable roots.The situation would be untenable for private companies trying to make a profit. they would have to hike fairs. Look at the transport system in britain it became a wreck after privatisation.

State run companies can work if they are run properley the answer is not privatisation but better management. Look at SNCF the french rail company its one of the best in the world.Ok i admit the irish and efficency dont go together,an post now has more managers than staff. The government should learn to run these institutions properely instead of taking the lazy option of selling them off.

jackofalltrades

But they don't have a monopoly abroad.

Why can't they just compete?

They can compete effectively abroad as one complete company.
Break them up into an authority that just manages the Dublin Airport with the debt of the whole company competing against a privately run terminal (whenever it actaully happens) and you're going to run into problems.

Some estimates that I have heard say that Aer Rianta will have to double landing charges in Dublin to maintain profitable.

Abolish the Shannon stopover and approve a second terminal at Dublin airport and you could actually get an improvement in custome service. I just can't see how breaking up Aer Rianta will achieve anything close to this in the short to medium term.

Cork

Semi States cannot hide inefficent work practices or poor customer service where competition exists.

Where you have Monopolies - Consumers have little choice.

There are very few flights from Cork or Shannon to EU destinations. By allowing them to compete aganist each other - you will give the customer more choice & it will be better for the respective region.

Why have Bus Eireann are effive monopoly on some routes?

Again, the state should not be allowing monopolies.

Having one operator of international airports is a monopoly. Consumers and Airlines have little choice.

The government is right & it has been agreed with our trade unions.

So, it have nothing to do with "leftie" economics. It has to do with providing the consumer with choice.

ZENER

But they don't have a monopoly abroad.

Do you read any of the threads you post in ???

Definition of Monopoly: A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity.

As I said earlier there are 9 airports in Ireland, Aer Rianta manage 3 out of those 9 which means there are other companies in Ireland managing airports ergo Aer Rianta can't be a monopoly.

If Aer Rianta is efficent - they should not fear competion. I hope the government agrees to a second terminal. Let competion begin.

Bring it on by all means but let Aer Rianta Dublin have a fair foundation to start with - weighing it down with over 400 million in additional debt from Cork and Shannon airports and giving ARI to shannon and selling off GSH plus expecting the management to come up with cash for further development on top of that is hardly a fair foundation now is it ??

ZEN

Cork

Charlie McCreevy has stated that it will have to make financial seense before he signs off on any deal.

So, financial sense is indeed paramount.

Both the people of Cork and the Mid West are badly served by their respective airports. Going up to Dublin for flights is coomon by people who live outside Dublin.

As, consumers - more choice is warranted. More destinations need to be opened up. Our tourisim industy needs more tourists.

Having local boards makes sense. Making decisions within the area that effect the area. When you have to consider how a decision will effect other airports - you may not make the best decision for your area or the consumers within your area.

Aer Rianta does not have a monopoly abroad. I surpose, it did loose the German route from Shannon recently. But Shannon is an international airport and Farranfore is a regional one.

The Irish Consumer has not been served well by having to get trains to Dublin for pretty basic flights to UK and EU destinations. Shannon and Cork need to be utilised more.

Aer Rianta is an effective monopolist. Dublin, Cork & Shannon all competing will encourage new routes.

Aer Rianta needs to see that splitting up the company will allow local management to make decisions that effect their airport.

ZENER

Charlie McCreevy has stated that it will have to make financial seense before he signs off on any deal.

Yeah the brown envelope will have to contain more than usual !

Both the people of Cork and the Mid West are badly served by their respective airports. Going up to Dublin for flights is coomon by people who live outside Dublin.

How exactly is Aer Rianta or the Government responsible for that ? Market forces dictate that it makes sense for airlines to hub at Dublin. It's where most people/business in Ireland is based, it's our capitol city ! Do you suggest that we force Ryan Air and BMI to operate more flights from these two airports, perhaps we could subsidise them.

If Michael O'Leary thought for one second he could make more money flying out of Shannon he'd be there tomorrow but that's not going to happen. Sure when Shannon becomes an independent entity it can pitch for it's own business but they will have a hard job selling it to airlines who will want to take their passangers where they want to go not 150 miles away- it's funny but did anyone ever bother to tell Ryanair that ?

How will the people of Cork and the Mid West be served by airports that will have to increase their charges to stay afloat and in Shannon's case probably go to the wall. As it stands these airports operate much like CIE they are subsidised to provide a necessary service for local communities. If this breakup goes ahead I would guess that any subsidies will stop and they will be on their own. Do you realise that Shannon airport was so quiet that the payroll section for all 3 airport was moved there to give them something to do !

Aer Rianta is an effective monopolist. Dublin, Cork & Shannon all competing will encourage new routes.

AER RIANTA BY DEFINITION ARE NOT A MONOPOLY !!!

ZEN

therecklessone

Originally posted by ZENER
Sure when Shannon becomes an independent entity it can pitch for it's own business but they will have a hard job selling it to airlines who will want to take their passangers where they want to go not 150 miles away- it's funny but did anyone ever bother to tell Ryanair that ?

He won't mind, he'll just rename Shannon and Cork as Dublin-Southwest and Dublin-South...

ZENER

ZEN

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Charlie McCreevy has stated that it will have to make financial seense before he signs off on any deal.

So, financial sense is indeed paramount.

Jaysus, you are gullible Cork, aren't you. There is a vast difference between words and actions.

Moriarty

Aside from the debate about whether to sell off aer rianta, shannon could become a very large airport if it was properly managed. It's a perfect location for cargo companies to locate. All sorts of novel ideas could be dreamt up for comercial use of shannon - NASA use shannon as one of a handful of emergency air strips around the world for shuttle landings (if and when it ever gets off the ground again ) due to its location and the length of the runway. It's ripe for the likes of DHL/fedex to situate major hubs there.

therecklessone

Interesting one this...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2769-1159058,00.html

I wasn't aware ol' rughead was a Soldier Of Destiny.

Hanlon doorstepped McCreevy at Dublin airport as the finance minister was returning from an Ecofin meeting. McCreevy assured Hanlon, a long-time Fianna Fail supporter, that his position was secure.

Sources said McCreevy told Brennan that the chairman had done the state service and should be allowed to serve his time. Before being appointed chairman of Aer Rianta in 1995, Hanlon, a former ambulance manufacturer, served as chairman of Aer Lingus and VHI.

It is the minister for finance who is the shareholder in semi-state companies and it is the minister who must sign the final notice seeking to fire the chairman of any semi-state company.

So Charlie McCreevy blocks the Minister for Transport from removing one of the most ardent critics of the governments plans for Aer Rianta cos he's one of the boys? Wonder will he intervene in the row between Smith and the head of the Civil Defence...

Mighty_Mouse

Bad news for Shannon. Another case of "as long as our "ECONOMY" (ie Dublin is ok), then sure isn't everyone better off". Which doesnt really apply when you consider the loss of jobs and businesses to the Shannon region.

The pure economists in here have to recognise that while it might be better economically for everyone to move to Dublin, live in high rise buildings, pay poll tax, use centralised services and mass-produce our skills. At the end of the day this 1984 situation wouldn't be socially good for our nation, would it?

DublinWriter

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Bad news for Shannon. Another case of "as long as our "ECONOMY" (ie Dublin is ok), then sure isn't everyone better off". Which doesnt really apply when you consider the loss of jobs and businesses to the Shannon region.

Right. So what you're basically saying is that you want the rest of us to subsidise you so you can live in one of the most beautiful and car-free parts of Ireland?

Shannon would be viable where it is if it got its costs under control.

Why are people still driving to Dublin Airport from Galway, Sligo, Cork and Clare???

...because basically, the stop-over has made Shannon fat and lazy. The future of the airline industry is in-low cost, not state subsidies.