Insurance , how do we curb the ridiculous prices?

V3003

After getting a quote to insure my car i was dismayed at the price of insurance , i thought it was perhaps because i was a 21 year old male driver that it was so high , but after asking my father who is 54 and has never made an insurance claim i could see that this was not the case. Although , naturally , his premium was lower than mine i still thought it was scandelous that during his (driving) life he has paid enough insurance to buy 5 new top f the range BMW's he is still paying so much.

This made me think (scary, i know) , how do we curb the ridiculous prices of insurance. Perhaps put very strict limits on the profits an insurance company can make or even bring insurance under state control -- this is radical i know , a step away from western capitalism - but motor insurance in mandatory and so i think this is realistic since the profits would go to the state to help those insured even further.

Perhaps a more reasonable start would be to stop insurance payments for someone who has already paid a certain amount to companies over their lifetime - i know the is "no claims bonuses" , but i mean after a limit of say 30000-50000 euro has been reached over a lifetime insurance payments stop until a claim has been made.

Why do u think about the current price insurance?
(was not sure what board to put this on)

mr_angry

Well, to be honest, its not just motor insurance, is it? Insurance across the board has gone up drastically, and the old "September 11th" excuse has pretty much worn through at this stage.

I think a number of actions have to be taken. Firstly, fraudulent claims have to be virtually eliminated. We've already had some new legislation on this, so hopefully it'll make a difference. Secondly, Insurance companies have to be forced to challenge claims in the courts instead of just paying out, and bumping up people's premiums to cover costs. And finally, I think there has to be some kind of ombudsman to look into insurance company profits and how premiums compare across Europe. This person must have the power to force compliance on the companies too.

And a bit more competition would also be nice.

arcadegame2004

As a motorcyclist I find that insurance prices are VASTLY more affordable. I drive a Peugout Speedfight II automatic scooter. I have Third Party Insurance and it only costs me 249 euro per annum (this year anyway). I am a 24 year old.

I figure maybe you should sell you car and get a motorbike and you'll be rid of the high premiums. Motorcycles are also SO much easier to drive and so much more fun - well except when it rains :rolleyes:

On the specific question of how to get premiums down, it will require that any barriers to entry that may deter foreign inurance-companies entering the Irish market be removed. We need more competition that should do they trick.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by V3003
(was not sure what board to put this on)

This one?

Trebor

we need to triple our driving population so the insurance companies can spread the cost more. thats why insurance is cheaper in most other countries cause they have bigger populations thus bigger markets which means they can average the premiums. we also have to bring our payments to people claiming down to a reasonable amount.

V3003

I was thinking about fraudulent claim and i realise that they are one of the main problems contributing to the rise in insurance prices. But how can this possibly be stopped?
Perhaps an insurance scheme whereby 3rd party fire and theft is the only cover but in addition establish a sort of insurance bank in which an extra premium is paid - this covers your own car and u must pay into this account until you have covered the value of your car. However the premium paid into this account is not taxed but interest is gained (just like a bank) and the money in this account cannot be withdrawn (this would be established by the state).
The only problem is if u crash your car before you have paid its value - in this case i would suggest it be treated like a load from the insurance bank which must be paid back.
Maybe this is a crazy suggestion but it makes a lot of sense in my head.

V3003

or a european insurance board controlling insurance premiums - like interest rates with the ECB

ReefBreak

One idea that I like is to triple or quadruple the insurance premiums on anyone with a "maxed" or modded car.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by V3003
or a european insurance board controlling insurance premiums - like interest rates with the ECB

The ECB only controls base lending rates, not the retail ones charged to you by banks. Banks are still free to charge whatever they want to their customers.

One idea that I like is to triple or quadruple the insurance premiums on anyone with a "maxed" or modded car.

why? In some cases the modifications performed to the car can make that car more safe to drive. Theres plenty of people in their thirties and forties that mod cars, and are perfectly safe on the road. I think you're confusing modding with the "boy racer" mentality.

I'd prefer to see old people hit with the full wack, since more often then not, they're not road safe (anyone that drives @ 20mph on a motor way is a liability). Also Women shouldn't receive lower insurance, since they're just as "dangerous" as a male driver.

Added to that the VRT, which is double taxation, ramps up prices so that the insurance is made seem so much higher.

But then the motor forum is prob the best place to discuss this. (my fav forum to ghost)

Trebor

Originally posted by klaz

But then the motor forum is prob the best place to discuss this. (my fav forum to ghost)

we could put a spin on it to make it fit the politics forum.
what are the parties views on reducing insurance costs? and what is the current government doing about it?
will get back to this when i look into it more.

bonkey

we could put a spin on it to make it fit the politics forum.

I'm more inclined to shunt it to the Ripoff Ireland forum, given that similar discussions are almost "fare du jour" there.

jc

Trebor

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm more inclined to shunt it to the Ripoff Ireland forum, given that similar discussions are almost "fare du jour" there.

jc

your the mod bonkey i don't mind

MadsL

Arcade wrote:

As a motorcyclist I find that insurance prices are VASTLY more affordable. I drive a Peugout Speedfight II automatic scooter. I have Third Party Insurance and it only costs me 249 euro per annum (this year anyway). I am a 24 year old.

A 16 year old in Holland pays about 50 euro, but if you are happy paying 5 times that. Enjoy.

TwoShedsJackson

I'm frankly gobsmacked that arcade wasn't ranting about how all the blacks coming over here and driving crappy 1990 Toyotas are driving up his premiums :rolleyes:

parsi

Originally posted by V3003
I was thinking about fraudulent claim and i realise that they are one of the main problems contributing to the rise in insurance prices. But how can this possibly be stopped?
Perhaps an insurance scheme whereby 3rd party fire and theft is the only cover but in addition establish a sort of insurance bank in which an extra premium is paid - this covers your own car and u must pay into this account until you have covered the value of your car. However the premium paid into this account is not taxed but interest is gained (just like a bank) and the money in this account cannot be withdrawn (this would be established by the state).
The only problem is if u crash your car before you have paid its value - in this case i would suggest it be treated like a load from the insurance bank which must be paid back.
Maybe this is a crazy suggestion but it makes a lot of sense in my head.

Well the main factor in insurance costs is not insuring the value of your car but insuring the liability that can arise if your car crashes into people/property etc.

LFCFan

Originally posted by V3003
this covers your own car and u must pay into this account until you have covered the value of your car

Surely this is just paying for your car all over again? Makes no sense to me. The way you phrase this would mean if I bought a €20,000 car I'd have to pay €20,000 for the car and another €20,000 for insurance?

V3003

Perhaps an insurance scheme whereby 3rd party fire and theft is the only cover but in addition......

I said 3rd party fire and theft is paid ... but this the the only insurance paid to an insurance company.

V3003

Surely this is just paying for your car all over again? Makes no sense to me. The way you phrase this would mean if I bought a €20,000 car I'd have to pay €20,000 for the car and another €20,000 for insurance?

Well yes and no ... over the years you will pay over 20000 in insurance anyway ... this way once u reach 20000 you stop paying. Even if you change car you will still not have to. (unless you crash)

LFCFan

Originally posted by V3003
Well yes and no ... over the years you will pay over 20000 in insurance anyway ... this way once u reach 20000 you stop paying. Even if you change car you will still not have to. (unless you crash)

What car's value do you base it on? How many years is enough? What if I start with a €10,000 and when that's paid off get a €100,000 car? Do I have to start paying all over again?

V3003

What car's value do you base it on? How many years is enough? What if I start with a €10,000 and when that's paid off get a €100,000 car? Do I have to start paying all over again?

No you will still have the 10000. If you then bought a 100000E car you would have to begin to pay instalments on the extra 90000 , but of course this would not be as much as it seems as depreciation would also be a factor. And it is not as if you would lose this money (unless you crash).

If you decided to stop driving (and could prove it) you would be paid all of this money back of course.

LFCFan

Originally posted by V3003
No you will still have the 10000. If you then bought a 100000E car you would have to begin to pay instalments on the extra 90000 , but of course this would not be as much as it seems as depreciation would also be a factor. And it is not as if you would lose this money (unless you crash).

If you decided to stop driving (and could prove it) you would be paid all of this money back of course.

Sure this just sounds like you would be paying for each car you ever own twice.

V3003

Rember that you are not PAYING this money unless you make a claim , u will get this money back. Unlike an insurance company where the money will go back to the companies profits
Also remember this will cut out a lot of fraud as people could only possibly get back the money they put in
Also , you will be paying for the price of your car more that twice anyway over your lifetime.

ShaneOC

I'm all for coming up with new ideas and suggestions regarding how we can reduce the cost of insurance. I'm not sure of the feasability of v3003's suggestion for the payments above '3rd party fire and theft' to a sort of bank, but I do see that one of the main points is to get the money out of the insurance company's coffers. Unfortunately the majority of the premium is for '3rd party fire and theft', the amount spent on the comprehensive portion is small (in my case it was less than 10% when I first got insured).

I am hoping the the new PIAB (personal injury assessment board - I think) will weed out any fraudulent claims and that this should have a noticable effect on premiums. Mary Harney was quoted as saying shey hoped they would come down by approximately 40% (you'd never think that there's an election ). I'm not sure if this is for all types of insurance.

I also agree that allowing other European Insurers into the Irish market should happen immediately.

V3003

But does the majority of fraudulent claims not come from that extra comprehensive insurance? the point in the "insurance bank" is to stop frauds aswell as take money from insurance companies.
Obviously a restriction on insurance companies profits or the introduction of European insurers would have a very significant (positive) effect and i would totally agree with either.

dudara

Isn't there an insurance system in France, where you pay a base rate, which is low enough, and you top it up as you buy petrol.

A while ago I proposed, in a letter to the papers, that everyone stop paying insurance. Then perhaps the government might take some notice of the exorbitant prices that compulsory insurance results in.

I know that it's an idealistic view, that we might all pull together to achieve something, but hey, I can only dream.

Fendervendor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
As a motorcyclist I find that insurance prices are VASTLY more affordable. I drive a Peugout Speedfight II automatic scooter. I have Third Party Insurance and it only costs me 249 euro per annum (this year anyway). I am a 24 year old.

I figure maybe you should sell you car and get a motorbike and you'll be rid of the high premiums. Motorcycles are also SO much easier to drive and so much more fun - well except when it rains :rolleyes:

As a motorcyclist I find prices are just as extortionate as car insurance.
I have had a full motorcycle licence for nearly 20 years. Living in England i rode motorcyles for 15 years, my last bike was a suzuki GSXR1100 and my insurance was sterling200, fully comp!
Upon moving to Ireland on1999 i decided to not to get another bike as i was concerned about the poor road conditions, but once a biker always a biker, and recently decided to get back into the saddle, result...... one 1988 FZR750.
Carole nash would not quote.
Hibernian..E700 Third party only!
I might add i am 44 years old, i also have an unblemished car driving history (which counts for nothing).
It seems we are so used to being ripped off by insurance companies that we consider any premium that does not constitute a mortgage is a bargain!!:mad: :mad:

As for motorcycles being easier to drive.....the mechanics of driving may be simpler, particularly an auto g/box, but a skilled motorcyclist has to work hard to stay safe on our roads. Yes, it is the best fun you can have with your clothes on!

Gurgle

Originally posted by arcadegame2004: I drive a Peugout Speedfight II automatic scooter.I figure maybe you should sell you car and get a motorbike and you'll be rid of the high premiums.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Peugot Speedfight 2
You're a mopedist, not a motorcyclist.
The difference is subtle but important.

And unfortunately:
1. A motorbike which can handle the shìte roads in the tax-source area (i.e. outside dublin - the tax sink area) costs as much to insure as a car.

2. I have yet to find a motorbike with enough seats for me, my wife & two kids.

Would I get in trouble for calling arcadegame an idiot on this forum ?

Oh yeah - ridiculous prices, we are in position over a barrell with our trousers around our ankles.
No public transport -> need car -> legally need insurance -> insurance industry unregulated -> can charge what they want

Sleepy

Feasible suggestions:

1. State controlled insurance or strictly capped profit margins for insurance companies.

2. Laws to regulate compensation payments - basically you get your medical expenses, loss of earnings and maybe a grand for your trouble. None of these 30K for whiplash (even IF genuine) or "mental anguish" settlements. Everyone gains through lower premiums, those that get hurt suffer their injuries but don't lose out financially.

3. Legally require ALL accidents to be reported and settled with insurance companies. This ensures that people's driving records (and therefore risk categories) can be acurately assessed. It would probably bridge the gap between male/female premiums too.

4. Ban "women only" or "over forty only" car insurance. These discriminatory practices are against the basic idea of insurance (i.e. the spreading of risk against all people involved in the persuit of an activity)

5. Use the penalty points system to back up a fairly operated insurance companies/ the state insurance body.

6. Abandonment of the "two-tier" driving instruction scheme being adopted by certain insurance companies. The driving test should be enough to prove to them that you can drive, advanced driving classes are a waste of time and money. If this makes the test harder, so be it.

7. Harsher sentances for reckless / dangerous driving.

8. Guaranteed long sentance jail time for hit and runs.

9. Limited lifetime driving licences - i.e. you must resit your test every 20 years until the age of retirement (65), evey 5 years after that.

10. Investment in road building/maintenance.

11. Harsh penalties for insurance fraud. Any fines made going directly into the national insurance pool.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Gurgle
the tax-source area (i.e. outside dublin - the tax sink area)

I presume you have that the wrong way round?

Dublin contributes far more to the economy than is spent on it's infrastructure. There are 5 or 6 counties that receive more in Social Welfare payments alone (never mind any infrastructure spending) than they generate in tax revenues.

Sleepy

Which counties are you referring to?

Not about to jump down your throat, just genuinely curious.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Sleepy
Which counties are you referring to?

Not about to jump down your throat, just genuinely curious.

I don't remember offhand - Garret FitzGerald did a piece about it in his Saturday column in the Irish Times back in February sometime. If you know someone with a subscription they might look it up for you.