Search Warrant!!

bigirishpaddy

Hi all,
I recently had a search warrant served on my home. It involved 2 male guards, 1 female guards and a representitive/employee of a fairly well known irish company.
The search was to recover any equipment belonging to the company that this representitive worked for.
As the search proceeded, this ordinary civillian also began to search my home as though he were a guard aswell. He searched all my personal files(bank statements, receipts, accountants files, etc) he proceeded to the bed room(on his own) and continued to search there also.
Afterward's, he sat at my home pc for 15-20 mins searching it too, starting up programs, and helping himself through all my folders. This ordinary guy is just like you or me, he is just an ordinary civillian with no qualifications for using computers.
My question is, would this be classed as "an illegal search warrant" or can the district court judge give a civillian powers to do this?
Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank's
Bigpaddy

Dub13

its my understanding that only the guards can act out a warrant....not even customs officers can search they need the guards.So if anything was found they could not bring it to court.

bigirishpaddy

Thankx dub13
This area is very grey concerning search warrants, as far as i was told a judge has the power to give a civillian authority....but i doubt this very much myself. all of the legal irish sites i could find state that "if a member of the guardai convinces the district court judge to agree on a warrant, that the judge can give a "PERSON" the power to search a home. And in all the documents i have read, it never states "guard", its always "person". There would be no sence in giving as ordinary civillian power who is not sworn in by the guardai either????

Duffman

Did you read the warrant carefully? Can you tell us any more about it and your situation?

I'm not sure what the position is but I imagine that if it was a Garda search warrant then only Gardai would be permitted to enter let alone search your home. If this is the case, then the search being carried out improperly (ie. by a civilian) could amount to a breach of your Constitutional rights.

Evidence obtained in breach of such rights will usually be rejected by the courts so even if they found anything incriminating, it couldn't be used against you..

But this depends if this is a criminal case.. Are you suspected of stealing equipment from this company for example?

If it's a private case (the company sueing you), a judge can grant an injunction allowing the company to enter your home and seize items.. However this is very rare and only happens in exceptional circumstances, if they believed you were about to destroy evidence for example. If this the case then you might be able to appeal the decision.

One other thing, check the warrant carefully. If there are any mistakes (name, date, address) then it is invalid.

Hope this helps.

This sounds fairly serious, you should talk to a solicitor... Let us know what happens.

bigirishpaddy

I know there is no way of proving it now, but there was no way that the detective would allow me to view the search warrant, he would only allow me a glimpse of it at a time and then mutter out a few words from it.
As far as stealing the equipment is concerned, I used to work for this same company and had only 'some' of the equipment they use left lying around the house in which they seized.
Also, it is a rented house which i live in, so would they need to have the name of the guy who owned the house on the warrant, or would my name on the warrant suffice?
The warrant was almost expired when they got to me, so i dont think that they were afraid of me destroying anything.


regards
bigpaddy

bigirishpaddy

I know there is no way of proving it now, but there was no way that the detective would allow me to view the search warrant, he would only allow me a glimpse of it at a time and then mutter out a few words from it.
As far as stealing the equipment is concerned, I used to work for this same company and had only 'some' of the equipment they use left lying around the house in which they seized.
Also, it is a rented house which i live in, so would they need to have the name of the guy who owned the house on the warrant, or would my name on the warrant suffice?
The warrant was almost expired when they got to me, so i dont think that they were afraid of me destroying anything.


regards
bigpaddy

Sleepy

OK, so you nicked some stuff from work and now you're pissed because they came to take it back?:rolleyes:

bigirishpaddy

:dunno:
Well sleppy, i cant say that i blame you for thinking that, because so would i if i were not in 'these shoes'.
What i have is simply left over stock which i used to have, its not worth twopence, and there was no way i was gonna bother my arse going to the trouble in giving it back .

The firm was simply tipped off that i had a lot more that they taught, but this is not the issue at hand, i simply would just like to know was this an 'illegal search warrant', and what are my chances in getting this dismissed?

regards
bigpaddy

subway_ie

Originally posted by Sleepy
OK, so you nicked some stuff from work and now you're pissed because they came to take it back?:rolleyes:

I think he's more pissed at the fact that some random employee was allowed to search through all his personal stuff, computer files, finances, clothes, etc. The warant was probably to be expected if he did actually steal the stuff, but the company employee/representative wasn't.

BANZAI_RUNNER

As regards the statement about the customs officer not being allowed to search with out a guard, this is wrong , the customs officer does not need the guards when entering a premises, they got new powers earlier this year. These days when they set up a check point they do not need the guards with them.

Sleepy

Originally posted by bigirishpaddy
:dunno:
Well sleppy, i cant say that i blame you for thinking that, because so would i if i were not in 'these shoes'.
What i have is simply left over stock which i used to have, its not worth twopence, and there was no way i was gonna bother my arse going to the trouble in giving it back .

The firm was simply tipped off that i had a lot more that they taught, but this is not the issue at hand, i simply would just like to know was this an 'illegal search warrant', and what are my chances in getting this dismissed?

regards
bigpaddy

Apologies if I was out of line, that was simply the impression I got from your posts on the matter.

Duffman

Right, the fact that he wouldn't let you see the warrant is seriously dodgy and may even offer you a way out of this thing... talk to a lawyer.

Lex_Diamonds

Lawyer, find an opening, then sue, sue, sue.

bigirishpaddy

Right, the fact that he wouldn't let you see the warrant is seriously dodgy and may even offer you a way out of this thing... talk to a lawyer.

I went to see a lawyer....but shrrr he was neither saying "yea" or "nay" to my position. He was'nt going to answer something he could not. To be serious about it, he actually confused me more.
I was just hopeing that by posting this thread that someone whom suffered the same experience or circumstances may see it
It is definitly an awful ordeal to go through, especially when someone whom you have worked with, is allowed to "ransak" your own home, crawl through your own very, very personal belonging's in front of your own eye's with absolutely no power of stopping him
If this is the way the law is allowed to perform, to distrupt a person's privacy, allow a civillian to enter their home and go through it with a fine comb....well then all I can say is that "THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IN IRELAND IS AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE":mad:

KdjaCL

Why was he on the PC? Is it software or somfin physical? Only gardai are allowed to search a house, and for a quick simple answer call Citizens advice bureau and let them know what happened. Theyhave legal people who tell you in english why it will be thrown out of the house IF the person who was not a gardau found whatever it was he was looking for.


On a side note from your posts i get the feeling you knew they were going to search your house beforehand, why was the stuff still there?

kdjac

bigirishpaddy

Hi Kdjac,
Why they took the PC baffles me, this was not software or computer related.
..and as for known that i was going to be searched....I had'nt a clue. Yea OK...i plead guilty to having some of their stuff, but what i had was absolutely nothing, they were expecting alot more to be found. To be honest, what i had, had no value what so ever. Also let me tell you how good of detectives they were...im still going around my house the last two days finding stuff releated to the firm that they did'nt find and they were not even hidden.
When you work for a business for a lenghtly period of time you always have stuff related to them lying around the house.

I did'nt know that the citizens bureau could give advice on a matter like this, how would i contact them.

Victor

http://www.comhairle.ie/

and also

http://www.flac.ie/

KdjaCL

They prolly took the pc as evidence you were selling the stuff on. But call Citizen advice bureau its 100% confidential.

kdjac

Penfolds

OK, the following is the deal on search warrants from oasis.gov.ie :

"A search warrant is a written order giving a person authority to enter a premises and search for and seize property. "

Was the person from your old employer named on the warrant ? If not, then they had no business searching your house (they may have been entitled to be there and advise the gardai on what to look for but taking an ACTIVE part in the search is another matter)!

"In most cases, a search warrant is necessary before a Garda may search a person, a vehicle or a premises. However, certain legislation entitles the Gardai to go on premises without a warrant, for example, the Intoxicating Liquor Acts, the Public Dance Halls Act, and the Health Acts.
Other legislation, for example, the Dublin Police Act, the Misuse of Drugs Act, the Criminal Law Act and the Animal Remedies Act, entitles police officers to search you and/or your vehicle without a warrant."

Note that the above only refers to a Garda using a warrant and not any third parties.

As your house search had nothing to do with drugs, alcohol, running an illegal dancehall, etc... then a valid search warrant is needed.

I would contact the station the detective was from (normally your local station) and ask to speak to the detective superintendent and request a copy of the warrant and if you get no joy go straight to the Grada complaints Board.

Remember when contacting the Det superintendent about the warrant to stress that you're complaint is not connected to the conduct of the officers etc but whether the representative of your employer was entitled to be there and take an ACTIVE part in the search !

Garda Siochana Complaints Board
Block 1
5th Floor
Irish Life Centre
Dublin 1
Tel: (01) 872 8666

Penfolds

seamus

Personally, if it came to court, I would bring up that point, and move all evidence is inadmissable as there is the possibility of tampering with or planting evidence.

bigirishpaddy

Thanks a million for all your view's & advice lads;)
When i visited my solicitor, he informed me that there was no way i could see the warrant again until the day of the court. So i doubt it very much if i am going to be given a copy of it either.
Well, the first thing im going to do in the morning is contact the superintendant at the garda station whom conducted the search...and see just how far I can get with him.
I will keep ye all posted on the development's tomorrow.

Many thanks
Bigpaddy

bigirishpaddy

Hi lad's
As promised, here is my update. I contacted the detective today whom carried out the search. I asked for (a) receipt of the good's they seized, and (b) copy of the warrant.
He replied to (a) I will give you the original receipt, and replied to (b) "im not giveing you the copy of the warrant"
When I said "what's stopping me he replied " the law". Then he turned around and said the district court clerk has a copy of it, go to them and get it.......instantly then he turned around again and said to me, "dont go down there, they dont have it, i have it and im not giveing it to you":(
All the words in inverted commas are each word to a T which he said, cause i recorded the conversation:ninja:
Holy CRAP lads....I have never come accross something as weird in all my life?
He also said to me if im charged with anything, i will be "given the book of evidence" which will contain a copy of the warrant". This totally contradict's what my solictor said????

Dub13

Something is up here BIG time,get a Solicitor...if you are out of work it will be free.Keep us up to date.

Sleepy

AFAIK, unless the Guard was aware that the conversation was being taped, the recording is inadmissable as evidence. Not the first incident I've heard recently of the guards acting in a funny manner...

Evil Phil

You should check to see if the district court clerk has a copy of it, failing that try your soliciter again. I find it hard to believe that you cannot get a copy of the warrant.

bigirishpaddy

AFAIK, unless the Guard was aware that the conversation was being taped, the recording is inadmissable as evidence. Not the first incident I've heard recently of the guards acting in a funny manner...

I only taped the converstaion just incase he really came out with something interesting, i have it wiped clean now cause i dont think it is legal to do so either without his knowledge.
And yes Phil, I believe that you are right, shrrr the clerk must have a copy of it, if it was issued by the same district court. I mean like the detective did say "im not giveing you the warrant", which he probably has full rights not to, but i mean to say then to turn around and say "the clerk has a COPY of it, get it off them".
My next move so is to contact the clerk and see what they say. God i do hope that they do not contact the same detective while im there to O.K. it, because the 'ground will just open up and swallow me with embarrassment'

Sleepy

Why? You're only doing what the detective told you to do!

LegacyUser

The warrant they used was a section 48, theft and fraud offences act warrant. One to search for stolen property....

Here is some text from the warrant, the bit you are interested in is in bold.

48.—(1) This section applies to an offence under any provision of this Act for which a person of full age and capacity and not previously convicted may be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and to an attempt to commit any such offence.



(2) A judge of the District Court, on hearing evidence on oath given by a member of the Garda Síochána, may, if he or she is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that evidence of, or relating to the commission of, an offence to which this section applies is to be found in any place, issue a warrant for the search of that place and any persons found there.



(3) A warrant under this section shall be expressed and shall operate to authorise a named member of the Garda Síochána, alone or accompanied by such other persons as may be necessary—



(a) to enter, within 7 days from the date of issuing of the warrant (if necessary by the use of reasonable force), the place named in the warrant,



(b) to search it and any persons found there,



(c) to examine, seize and retain any thing found there, or in the possession of a person present there at the time of the search, which the member reasonably believes to be evidence of or relating to the commission of an offence to which this section applies, and



(d) to take any other steps which may appear to the member to be necessary for preserving any such thing and preventing interference with it.

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by warrantBoy
(3) A warrant under this section shall be expressed and shall operate to authorise a named member of the Garda Síochána, alone or accompanied by such other persons as may be necessary—

In other words they can have anyone and any number of people come to ransack your house and you can do nothing about this!!!. That's just wrong:mad:.

seamus

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
In other words they can have anyone and any number of people come to ransack your house and you can do nothing about this!!!. That's just wrong:mad:.

Absolutely. Person X has something against you. Person X wishes to have you implicated in a robbery of his business. Person X knows local Garda Y who arranges for a search warrant for stolen goods, and allows Person X's nominated friend to join him in the search, who subsequently plants incriminating evidence in your home as he searches. Very simple, very devastating. Ridiculous.

bigirishpaddy

(3) A warrant under this section shall be expressed and shall operate to authorise a named member of the Garda Síochána, alone or accompanied by such other persons as may be necessary—

Dont get me wrong now lad's, but does that, sub paragraph 3, just allow person X to accompany the Garda during the search, and not to take part in the search himself? I mean like, this person X proceeded to search the house "by himself" while the member's of Gardaí were searching the other part's of my house by themselves.
Even if it were possible to give person X authority to take part in the search....surely he would also have to be accompanied by the Gardaí while he proceeds in doing so?:dunno:

Nike_Dude

Dont get me wrong now lad's, but does that, sub paragraph 3, just allow person X to accompany the Garda during the search, and not to take part in the search himself? I mean like, this person X proceeded to search the house "by himself" while the member's of Gardaí were searching the other part's of my house by themselves.
Even if it were possible to give person X authority to take part in the search....surely he would also have to be accompanied by the Gardaí while he proceeds in doing so?

my readin of the paragraph would conform to this view, but im not sure. I'll check the auld law books and notes when i get back home on monday. God the exams were only a month ago and i already forget half the stuff:dunno:

Gavin

As regards the civilian inspecting the computer, there is no way that machine can now be used as evidence in a court of law unless he is a qualified computer forensic technician.

Gav

pablo21

Have you got yourself a solicitor yet???

theciscokid

if they serverd a warrant , you are entitled to read it to see if it is correct

and for ppl that have stuff on their computer that u want to keep private use crypto, its strong and freely available..

under current laws if they ask u for the key u have to produce it - but then u can become the most forgetful person in the world

Victor

Originally posted by theciscokid
under current laws if they ask u for the key u have to produce it - but then u can become the most forgetful person in the world

And they drag you in front of the judge and you get to slop out from the Liam Lawlor suite for a week for contempt of court.

Sleepy

Better than incriminating yourself for a longer sentance tbh.