10 Desktops and a Server - need to source

daveg

I've been asked to source 10 desktops and 1 server for a community centre. These will be used to run PC classes. This is the spec from Dell that I think would be suitable:

Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
256MB DDR RAM (Includes 128MB FREE)
1 Year Collect and Return Service (- EUR 117.00)
Intel Celeron Processor 2.6GHz
80GB (7200rpm) IDE Hard Drive
1.44MB Floppy Drive
Dell 15" UltraSharp (15.0" VIS) (with Height Adjustable Stand) Analogue/Digital Flat Panel Monitor (+EUR 300.00)
48x/32x/48x/16x CDRW/DVD-ROM combo drive
Dell Stereo Speakers
Dell Enhanced Multimedia Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
Microsoft® Office 2003 Small Business - Dell Recommends (+EUR 270.00)

Total comes to 1,134 Euro ex VAT (1372.75 incl VAT)

I have 2 questions. Would you have different recommendations than above and most importantly what spec should I go for the server to provide the network for this lot?

Thanks in advance.

Superman

don't get celerons there shit and a slower real computer would be better than it.get a bit more ram for each cause it does make them run better.

so a slower (non-celeron) system with more ram is my pick.

I doubt there going to be using aload of really server inteensive stuff. so just get a mid range enterprise one. Have you talked to dell to see if they will cut you a deal if your buyin in bulk/cash?

sceptre

I'd tend to think that, if there's a significant price difference between a Celeron and a P4 machine, celerons would be perfectly grand for a community centre running PC classes. It's not like the guy needs gaming machines. The L2 cache difference won't be significant for the purpose used.

seamus

Depends on what the server is going to be used for daveg

If it's going to be running multiple services (Web, Ftp, DNS, etc), as well as some NFS, you may want something beefy. But if it's only going to be connected to these 10 machines, a slightly more powerful machine with large disks, and a backup solution should more than be adequate.

daveg

Originally posted by seamus
Depends on what the server is going to be used for daveg

If it's going to be running multiple services (Web, Ftp, DNS, etc), as well as some NFS, you may want something beefy. But if it's only going to be connected to these 10 machines, a slightly more powerful machine with large disks, and a backup solution should more than be adequate.

Seamus the server (I would imagine) will only be there to provide print services and such. Perhaps web as well.

I know what your all saying about P4 vrs Celeron or equivalent but I'm always of the opinion it's worth spending the extra few quid on a P4 if only for resale/keeping up with technology value.

So for the server I should go maybe P4 2.8, 512MB. Perhaps a copy of ghost would suffice for backup - take an image from each (fresh) machine onto a partition (hidden) on the HD?

seamus

Originally posted by daveg
Seamus the server (I would imagine) will only be there to provide print services and such. Perhaps web as well.

I know what your all saying about P4 vrs Celeron or equivalent but I'm always of the opinion it's worth spending the extra few quid on a P4 if only for resale/keeping up with technology value.

So for the server I should go maybe P4 2.8, 512MB. Perhaps a copy of ghost would suffice for backup - take an image from each (fresh) machine onto a partition (hidden) on the HD?

I'd go for a gig of RAM, minimum. For backup, I was more thinking about for the server itself - if they are going to be providing any kind of file sharing, or say personal websites, if they're going to be doing html or something. Desktop machines on their own are easy to reformat and get up and running, but if all the info on the server is lost (hard drive failure for example), it could be a major headache for them. Depending on what will be stored on the server obviously.

maxheadroom

Maybe get elara and komplett to quote you - both offer full PC systems. Do you really need TFTs for the workstations?

Possibly maybe consider linux on the server?

EDIT: Also, ring dell's small business sales line - you'll get treated much better and get a better deal than if you call the home sales one...

LizardKing

We've dealt with these guys .. fairly competitive and good service www.encom.ie

tuxy

shame dell dont do athlons an xp 2500+ is about the same price as a celron 2.6 but the xp is way faster

Kali

I'd go with Dell for the workstations.. and build a custom linux server yourself (if its just to be used for file & printer sharing, firewall etc.)... the licencing costs of a Windows Server 2003 with 10 clients could be a bit high for a community centre.

Main thing with the Dells is you're pretty much guaranteed that all client machines will be identical, meaning you can use the same image for all the machines once any additional software installs are done... plus when it comes to bundling XP Professional and Office they're cheaper.

Lump

I would imagine that if you ring Microsoft they will sell you ten licenses for your one copy of XP and Office, That's bound to save you money.


John

unkel

Dell proper P4 2.8 for €449 + VAT

You can't beat that! M$ do special deals on office for students. Check out if you can go that route. As said ring the business (small office) sales number, they'll be able to give you a small discount

ressem

(May 21) Dimension 2400c 2.6GHz EUR 349.00 ex vat

Adding the stuff he's got brings it almost all the way back up, mostly with MS stuff and Flat panel monitor.

----
Server:
depends on your budget and experience
Can you afford Eur900 for Microsoft server 2003 and 10 file/print CALs? Handy for rebuilding/deploying win Pro and not as scary to teach others as....
Alternative is Samba and linux,
not rocket science, but maybe a bit much, especially if you won't be the admin for the next 6+ years. http://ie.samba.org/samba/docs/using_samba/ch04.html

If you choose MS, try asking for small business server 2003 standard edition, offers more for ~same price provided you stay under 50 users, has a few caveats.
Don't use MS Server for internet. Just use a hardware router with a ISDN/DSL connection and it's firewall.
Recommended that you use DNS and DHCP, really is extremely trivial to add and maintain in MS Server.

Whichever OS
Try to get at least SATA hardware raid 1 and SATA drives as even the best harddrives fail.
(we lost a 2yr old scsi drive on the mail server just today without warning, despite air conditioning, cleaning and PSL. Raid 5 meant we didn't lose a second or a byte, just slapped in another drive after a few minutes)
Don't see this option at Dell yet. Can add to a low cost Dell IDE server.

That's
Low cost hot plug Sata raid mirror 120 GB x 2 (3 for raid 5)
Highpoint Rocket Raid 1640 - 4Ch SATA Raid with Raid 5 for Eur100. (software raid doesn't cover the windows partition)

Nice to also have
3 bay Hot Swap rack Eur100, Requires 2 x 5 1/4" bays

Other than that half a gig Memory and any recent processor should be ok, just keep it a few feet above any carpet and dust if off every few weeks. You're not that concerned with availability.

---

Desktops:
I don't really think that you should care about resale value, unless you're really pessemistic about the venture.

Don't know what you'll be teaching but
agree with winXP Pro
Think the DVD/cdrw is overspecced. DVD only, one dvd/rw between the lot, unless you've reason.
Think the screen is overspecced.
Battery powered kbd and mouse is asking for tears.


If you're going to be moving/storing the machines a bit then the flat panel might be justified, else nah.

Because of the flat panel cost you can buy cheap dell laptops with seperate keyboard, mouse and stand to raise the LCD, so they could be locked away after classes.
Depends on supervision and security. Any details on your circumstances?

If your community centre can be associated with FAS or a school then you might be able to get Office Pro at Eur 100 per shot or less.

Else the MS open license from Dell might knock off 5% or so.
---

On an 11 grand order from Dell, we've beat them down by 10% and 'plus free upgrade' hardware in the past, if you can put together convincing opposition.

red-not-blue

Not sure about the rest of this stuff but the Wireless keyboard/mouse seem a bad idea to me, too easy to walk out with.

Not an expert but it seems to me that these will be used for training only so a celeron seems a reasonable spec. Server needs some muscle and linux (mandrake in my house) will do everything a server needs to do and cheaply too.

Regards

RNB

unkel

Originally posted by red-not-blue
the Wireless keyboard/mouse seem a bad idea to me, too easy to walk out with.

Good point

sirlinux

Just a point here, if the community centre has charitable status (registered charity) you can buy MS office pro, win 2003 server cals etc etc at educational prices (office pro for not much more than €100) also with a charitable status you can get HP equipment at educational prices (heavily discounted). Contact an autorised HP & Microsoft dealer such as Datapac, Calyx Cara or DSS (not sure if Calyx still are authorised for ed stuff). On last check Dell were not able to do educational prices. I do a good bit of work for charitable status organisations, the savings are huge you can buy some pretty serious kit at heavy discount. From personal experience Datapac has the best knowledge on what you will get with your educational/charitable status.

Civilian_Target

Do you really need MS Office? Using Openoffice would save you at least a grand.

In the same vein, I don't know why you're buying such expensive machines. TBH, I'd be out looking for an Athlon 2200XP machine, that you can pick up for a reasonably cheap price. You're not gaming, so there's really no need to go for a top flight machine. That said, I can't recommend too strongly that you stay away from Celerons. Celerons are bad. Very bad. In benchmarks, the 2.8ghz Celerons routinely get whipped by 1.4ghz Althons.

seamus

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Do you really need MS Office? Using Openoffice would save you at least a grand.

If they're going to be running computer classes, they're probably going to be running classes in Word, Excel etc. OpenOffice is a nice thought, but there's no point in teaching it to people who are basically computer literate cos it'll be of no use to them.

End_Item

If you are looking for a cheap server check out www.dtl.ie They have refurbed servers. I haven't bought one yet but did look into it. They all come with warranties also.

It's def worth a look!

daveg

Firstly thanks a million to all of you who have taken the time to reply to my post

The setup is not for myself. My Gf's uncle asked me to look at a spec for him. I will not be involoved in this venture. I'm just offering some advice. I'm not 100% sure exactly what he will be using the centre for except that it's an office/training enviroment. Having read the posts above I'll need to know more about the setup (esp for the server) before I can advise him.

I'd go for a gig of RAM, minimum. For backup, I was more thinking about for the server itself - if they are going to be providing any kind of file sharing, or say personal websites, if they're going to be doing html or something. Desktop machines on their own are easy to reformat and get up and running, but if all the info on the server is lost (hard drive failure for example), it could be a major headache for them. Depending on what will be stored on the server obviously.

Seamus - Perhaps a removable/External HD which can take a ghost dump would be a better solution? Ghost is the only backup solution I have used which is why I'm leaning towards that product.

Maybe get elara and komplett to quote you - both offer full PC systems. Do you really need TFTs for the workstations?

Will do. Will they beat dell though?

EDIT: Also, ring dell's small business sales line - you'll get treated much better and get a better deal than if you call the home sales one...

Great advice. Thanks.

We've dealt with these guys .. fairly competitive and good service www.encom.ie

For the same (ish) spec as Dell they are more expensive.

Main thing with the Dells is you're pretty much guaranteed that all client machines will be identical, meaning you can use the same image for all the machines once any additional software installs are done... plus when it comes to bundling XP Professional and Office they're cheaper.

Exactly. You can just put back the same image for each and change IP etc.

I would imagine that if you ring Microsoft they will sell you ten licenses for your one copy of XP and Office, That's bound to save you money.

I'll be sure to check that out.

You can't beat that! M$ do special deals on office for students. Check out if you can go that route. As said ring the business (small office) sales number, they'll be able to give you a small discount

As pointed out when you add in the extra's it brings it up to the same price.

ressem - Your server recommendations are a bit over my head but I'll bear your comments in mind. Desktop advice - DVD/CDRW comes as standard, I agree the TFT's could be overkill - I'll give the buyer the info and let him make the decision. I don't think the laptop idea would be a runner tbh as it will also be used as an office. I'll pass on the info about FAS & licences though, thanks for that.

Not sure about the rest of this stuff but the Wireless keyboard/mouse seem a bad idea to me, too easy to walk out with.

Very good point. Wireless (obviously) is an added component. Will suggest USB keyboard/Mouse.

Just a point here, if the community centre has charitable status (registered charity) you can buy MS office pro, win 2003 server cals etc etc at educational prices (office pro for not much more than €100) also with a charitable status you can get HP equipment at educational prices (heavily discounted). Contact an autorised HP & Microsoft dealer such as Datapac, Calyx Cara or DSS (not sure if Calyx still are authorised for ed stuff). On last check Dell were not able to do educational prices. I do a good bit of work for charitable status organisations, the savings are huge you can buy some pretty serious kit at heavy discount. From personal experience Datapac has the best knowledge on what you will get with your educational/charitable status.

I don't think it does tbh but I'll check it out and pass on the info if it is. Thanks.

Do you really need MS Office? Using Openoffice would save you at least a grand.

If all machines are being used in an office enviroment I think they would need office XP. Also the courses will include ECDL so office would be required.

In the same vein, I don't know why you're buying such expensive machines. TBH, I'd be out looking for an Athlon 2200XP machine, that you can pick up for a reasonably cheap price.

TBH it's because they are leaning towards dealing with Dell - who don't do Athlons (AFAIK). Perhaps I'll spec an XP machine with Komplett and compare with Dell.

If you are looking for a cheap server check out www.dtl.ie They have refurbed servers. I haven't bought one yet but did look into it. They all come with warranties also.

Will do.