American Beheaded & Prisioner Treatment

Nuttzz

An American was beheaded in Iraqi recently as revenge for the torture of Iraqi prisoners, to be honest as disgusted as I was by the pictures of the yanks taking pleasure in anothers suffering this action has given some defence to those people, a defence lawyer will use this to justify the actions of these troops, "look at the type of people we are dealing with" and this will wash with the American people.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13088189,00.html

The treatment of prisoners by Americans has never been that good, the link below gives accounts of some very graphic accounts of abuse in American prisions, some carried out by people in authority and most with the knowledge of the authorities

http://www.spr.org/en/survivorstories/main.html

A word of warning, this stuff is very very graphic, personally I feel physically sick everytime I read it

Darok

Surely the gruesome murder of that unfortunate American Nick Berg by those crazed fanatics is not an excuse for, or a justificaton of the treatment of Iraqi prisoners of war. If anything it should highlight the need for a so-called civilised society to afford the same human rights to those prisoners as it would to its own citizens.

Nuttzz

If anything it should highlight the need for a so-called civilised society to afford the same human rights to those prisoners as it would to its own citizens.

the second link is how they treat their own citizens.... it aint much better.

Wrestlemania

All I can say is no matter what undiginified treatment the yanks gave those prisoners. It is no way as worse as that and that man is only an electrical contractor.

I actually feel sick...But it has'nt being the first time I saw something like that.

Jesus Wept!

God help his family who saw that!

Sleipnir

Yeah and I would hope that nobody on boards is disrespectful/sick enough to go looking for the video. That's just not right.

Rabies

Originally posted by Sleipnir
Yeah and I would hope that nobody on boards is disrespectful/sick enough to go looking for the video. That's just not right.

Too late

sovtek

I'm sorry but comparing what these guys did to what American troops have done to prisoners is forgetting all context and assessing this in a vacuum.
As disgusted and horrified by the supposed beheading of Berg, the prison torture has been going on from the onset in Iraq...not to mention Afghanistan.
These people aren't invading anyone's country and killing one of their citizens (as opposed to 10,000). They aren't doing anything more atocious than what the Native Americans did to people that settled their land after it was bloodily taken from them by the US military.
I feel for this guys family as strongly as I feel for the tens of thousands of Iraqi's that have been killed since this stupidity started over a year ago. I do have to reconcile it with myu logic which told me before this thing started that it would lead to **** like this.
What supposedly happened is a war crime IIRC...right after you take all the responsible members of the Bush and Blair regime into custody...I'll be right behind everyone else asking for these guys appearance in the Hague.

Wrestlemania

Originally posted by Sleipnir
Yeah and I would hope that nobody on boards is disrespectful/sick enough to go looking for the video. That's just not right.

I agree Sleipnir, It is disrespectful and I am in a way feel guilty..

I also think the media coverage moreso the newspapers is very disrespectful, what i saw at lunch was tatamount to voyerism. So diginity should have been given for the families at least.

Sovetek the quote about the Red Indians is very true and comparable to ie. Scalps being taken etc...

I believe this men will never be caught and if killed in fighting well we will never know.

One thing to know amuptation and beheading is common place in the Arab world but not so publized until it happens to one of us.

To put it in a nutshell it is Sick and disgusting.

Nuttzz

I'm sorry but comparing what these guys did to what American troops have done to prisoners is forgetting all context and assessing this in a vacuum.

fair enough, but that was the justiciation they gave.

supposed beheading of Berg

how is it supposed?

To put it in a nutshell it is Sick and disgusting.

Yep

bonkey

Originally posted by sovtek
As disgusted and horrified by the supposed beheading of Berg, the prison torture has been going on from the onset in Iraq...not to mention Afghanistan.

Does that make this execution less horrific? Less condemnable?

These people aren't invading anyone's country and killing one of their citizens (as opposed to 10,000).

No, they're taking what is apparently an innocent non-related-to-the-conflict civilian who happens to be of teh same nationality as those who are invading, and decided to kill him to send a message.

If this was a soldier - or even a civilian "contractor" - being executed, then perhaps the relevance of who invaded whom may be important, but from what I've read, it was an innocent civilian who got killed.

They aren't doing anything more atocious than what the Native Americans did to people that settled their land after it was bloodily taken from them by the US military.

Correct. Nothing more atrocious. Also, nothing less atrocious.

jc

swiss

Since somebody has decided to reopen Pandorra's box, I will simply say that any flaming in this thread will result in a ban. If you cannot post without making personal attacks, then do not post.

I'm not sure what to say about this. It's tragic and depressing. I'm sure Al'Qaeda don't need an excuse to carry out this kind of atrocity, but that doesn't make this event any less shocking.

Edit: This thread was opened before the other one. Apologies to the original poster for assuming otherwise.

arcadegame2004

I am outraged and horrified by this monstrous act. May I add that the man who did this, Zarqari or whoever, played a part in the Madrid bombings and thus had shown prior to the abuse scandal that he had the murder of innocent Westerners on his mind. Al-Qaeda believe that non-Muslims must be killed. They have said so. I despise this evil organisation and its leadership.
At the same time we must not allow this cowardly act to distract us from the need for the US to clamp down hard on the minority within its miltary that have taken part in the sadistic abuse of Iraqi prisoners, as well as ( according to press reports ) abuse of Iraqi children. The US must deal with this problem or risk handing more propaganda victories to Al-Qaeda and their crazed leaders.

Gurgle

Around 16,000 people have died in Iraq in the last year.
Nick Berg is one of them.
I suspect he died quicker and with less pain than many of the others.

Don't get me wrong, this was a disgraceful act by a group of savages. I would happily see those 5 men, and those who gave the order, used as slaves to generate electricity.

WTF was he doing in Iraq ?
As it happened, he was captured & beheaded brutally with a large knife. It could just as easily have been a suicide bomber or another insurgence but surely he knew what kind of risk he was taking going there.

What possible reason to take the risk ?

Profit!

freetoair

Fair comment about the personal attacks, but these attacks are understandable when (without making an attack) some individuals compare the murder of this innocent individual to the special effects they've seen in a horror movie. A bit of maturity considering the gravity of the discussion wouldn't go amiss.

Back to the topic, personally I feel the media (including the internet) should show more responsibility in relation to this issue. By turning this murder into a commodity it only gives clout to the killers. Murders such as this should be reported on but not graphically reproduced in the media, this video will only help fuel the fire.

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
May I add that the man who did this, Zarqari or whoever, played a part in the Madrid bombings

I haven't seen anything on this, I must say.

Is this proven, strongly indicated, believed, or just suspected?

At the same time we must not allow this cowardly act to distract us from the need for the US to clamp down hard on the minority within its miltary that have taken part in the sadistic abuse of Iraqi prisoners,

Actually, we must not allow this cowardly act to distract us from insisting that the US continue to conduct as open an investigation as possible, so that people can have faith that it is, indeed, "a minority" problem.

<edit>
I'm not trying to suggest that the majority of US soldiers are in any way engaged in this type of activity, but there seems to be an awful lot of evidence suggesting that the symptoms, if not the problem, are far more widespread than has yet been admitted. (e.g. Red Cross and Amnesty allegations of this being systemic, the author of a military report claiming that there was a widfespread lack of training regarding Human Rights, etc. as well as allegations from some of the privates involved that they were following orders)
</edit>

jc

arcadegame2004

"WTF was he doing in Iraq ?" (Gurgle)

Apparently he was owns a company that was helping rebuild the infrastructure. Power-lines I think not sure. Well someone has to do it.

Exit

There's information about him here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg

arcadegame2004

Well bonkey, this paragraph suggests AL-Musab Al-Zarqawi - a senior aide to Osama Bin Laden - may have been involved in the Madrid bombings. The assassin in the Berg case claimed to be him. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3515138.stm

PyjamaMan

Originally posted by Gurgle
Around 16,000 people have died in Iraq in the last year.
Nick Berg is one of them.
I suspect he died quicker and with less pain than many of the others.

well, if what i just seen is less pain than others, god love the others

bonkey

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well bonkey, this paragraph...[/url]

kinda highlights why I asked the question...

What the article said :

here are already suspicions that the blasts could be linked to the leading Islamic militant, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

What you said :

the man who did this, Zarqari or whoever, played a part in the Madrid bombings

Spot the difference? Thats why I asked which it was.

jc

gandalf

Guys I really don't know why we are saying execution here. That poor man was murdered.

No matter what happened at the prisons it did not justify his fate. I have not seen the videos, I did see a still frame taken from the video and it was disgusting and made me sick to my stomach.

SantaHoe

I heard about this story on EuroNews this morning, and they showed the start of the video - and cut the footage as they took out the knife and pushed him to the ground... disturbing to say the least.
I hope to God the full thing isn't floating around the net.
The only message I think they're sending out is that they're a bunch of sick bastards.

Tusky

What annoys me is how people keep calling these people "animals" . Since when do animals torture their own kind ?

I watched some of the video with no sound and the screen as small as it would go. What disgusted me more than the video itself is some of the opinions I read on the other thread.

That guy saying " Ive seen worse in horror movies and WWII films" JESUS H CHRIST how ****ing ignorant is that ? I really hope he is only 14 or somthing - for the sake of the world let him be 14.

sceptre

Originally posted by SantaHoe
I hope to God the full thing isn't floating around the net.

It is and it's one of the most horrific things I've ever seen. It's the knowledge that what you're watching is in fact real and that someone's just been killed in a horrific way on your screen. What's worse is that some of his family will probably see it sooner or later. Regardless of the feelings of any of us one way or the other on the rights or wrongs of any particular action in Iraq, this was a disturbingly horrible murder carried out by a group of cold-blooded killers.

Sand

As disgusted and horrified by the supposed beheading of Berg

This is a good reason to see that video. So that when someone qualifies it as being supposed that you can correct them with what you saw with your own eyes and what they could see themselves. Its not supposed, it happened.

Regardless of the feelings of any of us one way or the other on the rights or wrongs of any particular action in Iraq, this was a disturbingly horrible murder carried out by a group of cold-blooded killers.

Perhaps the most horrific thing about it was the fact they were so utterly fanatical that there wasnt a moments hesitation or doubt on their part. They even allowed him to talk about where he came from and his family - part of psyching up someone to kill another person is to dehumanise the target - happens in war all the time. The last thing you do is let the target talk about their family because then you start seeing them as some mothers son, rather than the hated enemy. It speaks volumes for these psychopaths that Bergs personalising himself didnt have any effect. At least one of them was laughing when they were murdering him.

No matter what happened at the prisons it did not justify his fate.

Agreed - I dont understand the linking of the two episodes. The fact that terrorists butchered this man doesnt mean it was okay or somehow better for the Coalition to get some payback in the prison by torturing and humiliating their prisoners. The fact that Coalition soldiers mistreated prisoners does not mean it is okay or somehow better that this man was butchered.

WTF was he doing in Iraq ?

He seems to have been an electrician repairing communication equipment in Iraq.

seamus

Originally posted by Sand
Agreed - I dont understand the linking of the two episodes. The fact that terrorists butchered this man doesnt mean it was okay or somehow better for the Coalition to get some payback in the prison by torturing and humiliating their prisoners. The fact that Coalition soldiers mistreated prisoners does not mean it is okay or somehow better that this man was butchered.

It's a good indication of the mentality of these people. Although it doesn't even remotely justify what happened to the Iraqi prisoners, it does display to a lot of people exactly where the problem lies.
These people aren't fighting a war, or defending a homeland. They're blindly following a set of beliefs, distorted from Muslim. The extent of their anger is severe - they don't just hate America's President, or America's foreign policy, they hate America, everyone who lives there, and everyone who supports them. The life of every American is worth nothing to them (although I'd go as far as saying that life is worth nothing to them).

It's a hatred bred from oppression, ignorance and miseducation (by those with agendas). And the last thing you can use against hatred is war. Ignorance breeds prejudice and oppression breeds hatred. Prejudice and hatred are, and always have been, two of the biggest causes of atrocities in human history.

The video is sick. It should disturb anyone in power into seeing that war is not the answer.

jank

sick stuff however there are questions being raised what the hell he was doing there in the first place

more here

expect more to follow and conspiracy theories to evolve
however it was disturbing to watch...I wonder how many people think war is a good idea now!

vorbis

the people who did this are absolute savages. It doesn't justify the American abuses but it does but them in perspective.

davej

the people who did this are absolute savages. It doesn't justify the American abuses but it does but them in perspective.

You can't really say that yet as we still don't fully know what went on in Abu Ghraib prison. There are reports of prisoners being beaten to death that need to be investigated. Pictures (and video) that are being described as worse than what we have seen are yet to come out. Also the american abuses may have been sanctioned by people higher up the military chain of command.

If anything is to be put into perspective though i guess it would be the 2000 people who were murdered in one day in that prison under the Hussein regime...

davej

kahlua

It is clear that these terrorist groups are using shock tactics to demoralise the American soldiers as well as highlighting again and again the fact that the majority of people in a lot of coutries were against the war. These kind of senseless acts put more and more political pressure on the politcians to withdraw from Iraq. T

he horrific beheading i think had nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners, look at when different nationals were being kidnapped, then they ordered the immediate withdrawal of all soldiers from Iraq, this was an impossible and unreliastic demand but it generated huge amount media attention.

I also think that the treatment of prisoners in Iraq is disgraceful, for a nation that is supposed to be freeing the people of Iraq to lower themselves to this kind of mentality is unbelievable. Also the woman in some of the photo's is now blaming her superiors for making her pose in the photo's, i don't need some one to come along and tell me the way i should treat another human being and neither should she.

Sorry for the long post.

sovtek

Originally posted by Sand
This is a good reason to see that video. So that when someone qualifies it as being supposed that you can correct them with what you saw with your own eyes and what they could see themselves. Its not supposed, it happened.

I said supposed because I hadn't heard if it had been verified. I also didn't really want to look at it, just like I haven't really wanted to look at the prisoner photo's. I may still do it, and I don't condemn anyone who does.
I saw a clip last night on the local South African news station, but they cut the part of the actual beheading and only played the sound clip of him screaming...which was enough for me TBH.
And no I don't believe the prisoner photo's and this murder of Berg is comparable, like I stated before.
I do sense that it has been used by the Bush regime to possibly give some justification for the torture of prisoners though. I could be wrong but I would'nt be at all surprised.

sovtek

Originally posted by SantaHoe
I heard about this story on EuroNews this morning, and they showed the start of the video - and cut the footage as they took out the knife and pushed him to the ground... disturbing to say the least.
I hope to God the full thing isn't floating around the net.
The only message I think they're sending out is that they're a bunch of sick bastards.

I can see the reasoning in not wanting the video to be out there to view. At the same time I think possibly it should be. Just like I think that footage of the horrors of what happens in war should be shown for the public. It makes people more aware of the reality of it. I think there might be a lot less of it going around should that happen across the media spectrum.

sovtek

Originally posted by kahlua
The horrific beheading i think had nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners

If you mean that the two aren't comparable...I agree, if you are saying that they had nothing to do with each other, then why did these murderers demand that some prisoners be released?

look at when different nationals were being kidnapped, then they ordered the immediate withdrawal of all soldiers from Iraq, this was an impossible and unreliastic demand but it generated huge amount media attention.

Unrealistic? ...maybe... unreasonable? I don't agree

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
Does that make this execution less horrific? Less condemnable?

No that wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm trying to get across that it isn't surprising given the circumstances.

No, they're taking what is apparently an innocent non-related-to-the-conflict civilian who happens to be of teh same nationality as those who are invading, and decided to kill him to send a message.

Yes but its reality that anyone related to the occupation will be targeted, as has been precedent in this situation and others like it.

If this was a soldier - or even a civilian "contractor" - being executed, then perhaps the relevance of who invaded whom may be important, but from what I've read, it was an innocent civilian who got killed.

Early American settlers were also "innocent" as well. At the same time they also propogated the war against the native Americans and furthered the taking of their land. This guy works for the coalition as I understand it. I think it reality to expect that people like him will be targeted. Again I'm not saying that what happened to Berg is justifiable.

Correct. Nothing more atrocious. Also, nothing less atrocious.

jc

I agree.

Wacker

To any mods out there, please don't let thread go the same way as the last one.

I'm not saying don't close it. I'm saying be quicker to dish out those warnings!

The last thread was pathetic to read. Every good point would be countered by someone flaming someone else. What the hell is the point in allowing that?

So folks, please be civil this time.

minority

I just saw the video and i nearly got sick.
Its not just a beheading, its absoluteky horrible.
I was going to post it but really it shouldnt be seen.
You cant imagine how bad it is.

Ryvita

Originally posted by vorbis
the people who did this are absolute savages. It doesn't justify the American abuses but it does but them in perspective.

I don't think the abuse of Iraqis has anything to do with Al Qaeda. It's great publicity for them for sure!

The Iraqis who were being asbused weren't Al Qaeda? It's unfair to group them together. Iraq had nothing to do with September 11.

I can't stop thinking about what the poor man went through and what his family must be going through. I haven't even seen the video but even the description is harrowing enough. I really couldn't watch a film of someone being murdered. I don't think I'd be able to get over seeing something like that.

As for the Iraqis being abused. It's just as sickening. The americans are just as bad.

sovtek

Originally posted by Nuttzz
fair enough, but that was the justiciation they gave.



how is it supposed?




Yep

Actually I wasn't directing that at your original post. I was more thinking about some people's comments I heard comparing this to the prisoners (as some sick justification for the treatment of the Iraq prisoners...ie, how these "animals" only understand one thing).

Wacker

It is easily the most shocking, brutal thing I have ever seen, and I have seen a decapitation clip before. Also, I had no sound, and the sound is supposed to be the worst bit.
But as I said already, I don't regret watching it.

Everyone should make up their own minds as to whether they want to see it. Just be warned.

Ryvita

Tbh I don't think you need to see something like that to understand that it's horrific.

I don't know how anyone can manage to look at that. I'd have nightmares for weeks.

minority

you definietly need to see it to understand just how horrific it is.
I cant stress enough that you just cant imagine how horrific it is until you see it.
I have a pretty strong imagination and it was a hundred times worse than i imagined it.

Take this bit of advise and stick woth your imagination. Dont watch it unless you want nightmares.

Ryvita

Originally posted by minority
you definietly need to see it to understand just how horrific it is.
I cant stress enough that you just cant imagine how horrific it is until you see it.
I have a pretty strong imagination and it was a hundred times worse than i imagined it.

Take this bit of advise and stick woth your imagination. Dont watch it unless you want nightmares.

Yeah I will definately stick with what I'm imagining - it's bad enough. What I'm saying is that I don't need to actually see it to fell outraged by it if you know what I mean?

LoneGunM@n

I also haven't watched it [& don't intend to] ... imagining [sp?] it has my stomach turning as it is!!

Tusky

Before watching it I knew it was a horrific terrible act of cruelty and would sicken me...but it was 100 times worse, Just how helpless he is, arms behind his back . Four guys holding him down while one....well you know left me feeling deeply sad.

spanner

fox news had a "special report" on how easy it is to tamper with photographs. I am telling you i watch fox news all the time because it is hilarious.