apathy # 1

ferdi

i know that iam going to ripped apart by the arm-chair critics for this but its something i want to say.

first off let me say that i am not a red, anarchist, womble or hippie and i am not connected to any of the groups that do this demonstration stuff, i'm just a regular joe.
and i do not condone the actions of the handful of a few trouble makers messing last night.

if you do not care about politics or the state of society do not bother reading this.

here goes:

if you are not happy with the government or the general way the country is at the moment, why werent you out demonstrating peacefully yesterday?

one answer may be: "because going into town and walking arround with a bunch of hippies wont achieve anything"

my reply: it is this attitude that means that it is only hippies out there.

as i see it, there is actually no point in voting for any of the political parties because no matter which party or colalition of parties is in power, the policies are going to be pretty much the same

now what does that mean for us?

--> complete policitcal stagnation and the death of democratic choice.

these "freaks" are the only opposition to the government and as such they are the only thing keeping democracy alive in ireland.

no matter who you vote for; FF, FG, PD, LAB you are going to get the same poor quality of government and i do not believe that alot of young people are happy with the way things are going

the only way to make your political voice/opinion heard is to enguage in mass peaceful public demonstrations, mass communications to political figures and community based movements and meetings.

in the other thread there was alot of "i'd love to be a cop at that "riot", i'd bate the sheit out of those fookin' long haireds, har har har!"

as i see it, the long haireds are the only ones in the country not taking democracy forgranted while the rest of us just lie here in our own apathetic filth while the country and democracy slowly decay around us and alot of the negativity towards the protesters comes from people who feel guilty for not joining them because tey are afraid of what their friends will think or just because they have enough money to pay for beer and broadband and dont give a crap what happens as long as they are compfortable.

another ireland is possible - one where the politicians actually care what you think.

i dont have all the answers and i'm pretty apathetic myself but for gods sake, we need to WAKE UP.

giving it loads on the politics boards or ringing joe duffy isnt enough anymore.

ferdi

dangerman

yeh absolutely valid points there.

Personally I'm very very tired of people who basically just sit there saying 'god damn ff idiot gettin it all wrong' - when as you quite rightly point out, its difficult to see fg, labour etc. being substantially different and the populus is far too 'im alright jack' to really stand up and be counted.

People have it better than ever; the people who really need our help don't have access to boards or a computer and this will stay exactly the same until someone has the balls to substantially raise the higher rate of tax or some such radical proposal. I'd love to pay extra if I thought those on the minimum wage/poverty line could be helped. I'd prefer if people could only have BMW 3 series rather than 5 & 7 and a jeep for mommy to take the 2.4 kids to school. But we're a capitalist society, and that inherently means look after number one. If some sort of budget or law came in drastically affecting the middle classes, you'd have people on the streets. But that's not going to happen, because the government is interested in keeping the majority apathetic/happy. It's the people with no voice; those working just to live that is the real crime that we all quite happily allow, because it lets us get on with our beer and our broadband...

As for the protestors; i think you maybe slightly misguided - i think it may be just that people aren't anti-globalisation and don't believe in the fortress-europe arguements being put forward by the protestors. The various groups there had disperate messages that meshed together into 'fight the power!' - which i think ppl don't feel passionate enough about, so they didn't go. - the anti-iraq rally last year was a perfect example of ppl getting off there arse and showing their condemnation. The main problem now is the majority are ticking along just fine, and just do the typical arm-chair grumbling, meaning the minorities that need our support like above don't get the voice they need to get changes in place.

ferdi

your 100% right.

just wait till the bubble burst and it goes back to how it was in the 80s, it will probably happen at some stage.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ferdi

Originally posted by daveirl
I disagree with a lot of government policy but the people in Dublin yesterday don't offer any viable alternatives.

ok, set up your own organisation, i'll join.

robbie1876

as i see it, there is actually no point in voting for any of the political parties because no matter which party or colalition of parties is in power, the policies are going to be pretty much the same

Bring in communism? I didn't march yesterday because I have a vote. If I choose to vote for a party that ultimately doesn't make it into power, I have to live with that.

ferdi

Originally posted by robbie1876
Bring in communism? I didn't march yesterday because I have a vote. If I choose to vote for a party that ultimately doesn't make it into power, I have to live with that.

so everything that isnt mainstream politics is communism?

Originally posted by robbie1876
If I choose to vote for a party that ultimately doesn't make it into power, I have to live with that.

your missing my point -

no matter which party gets in (through your vote or not) - the policies are the same this shouldnt be.

Superman

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Originally posted by robbie1876
Bring in communism? I didn't march yesterday because I have a vote. If I choose to vote for a party that ultimately doesn't make it into power, I have to live with that.

---

oh yes the red's are coming, better run to the bunker and prep the mustard gas!

personally i'm a green party person. lots of good idea's and seem liuke a less stuff bunch overall.

ferdi, your mayday was very wild! (in joke)

hate_sycophants

Ridiculous points.

The Government is democratically elected and I for one am perfectly happy with their performance, in fact I'm ecstatic.

I think whoever started this post should be banned for idiocy.

jank

Originally posted by hate_sycophants


I think whoever started this post should be banned for idiocy.

says i hate cork people nft!

your 3/2 on to be banned by monday!!:D

robbie1876

so everything that isnt mainstream politics is communism?

I didn't say that, but I didn't phrase what I meant very well either. It was intended to be lighthearted. Obviously, there are other political options bar communism.

no matter which party gets in (through your vote or not) - the policies are the same this shouldnt be.

It could be said that their policies are broadly similar because the everyday issues that Irish society have are going to be broadly similar no matter what party are in power.

alleepally

Originally posted by Superman

---

Originally posted by robbie1876
Bring in communism? I didn't march yesterday because I have a vote. If I choose to vote for a party that ultimately doesn't make it into power, I have to live with that.

---

oh yes the red's are coming, better run to the bunker and prep the mustard gas!

personally i'm a green party person. lots of good idea's and seem liuke a less stuff bunch overall.

ferdi, your mayday was very wild! (in joke)

Have you read any of the Green party policy documents? Did I imagine it or did they not propose a separate currency for Dublin or something?

Superman

I dunno bout that , maybe

all I know is that their goods for environment and my local green party guy is alot more open than other parties.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ferdi

yes thats right:rolleyes:

vorbis

ferdi, your comments seem typical of what happens in a media dominated society. Only the bad things about a government are reported leading most people to believe that the shower in power are doing a terrible job. The fact is they're not. (this coming from an anti FF supporter). The country's economy did not go into a recession. Inflation has come down a lot with employment prospects beginning to look up again. That for me represents good government. There will ALWAYS be stories like people on trollies to bash any government over the head with. Also maybe theres a reason most of the policies are the same :rolleyes: They seem to be working.

lodgepole

I wasn't out yesterday because it was a general protest about a lot of things, many if not most of which I disagree with.

I want governmental change in this country and I do that by using my vote. I also make sure to bring the issues that I think our politicians are failing at to their attention.

I believe in the power of protest, but not in what was planned this May Day.

Trebor

Originally posted by vorbis
ferdi, your comments seem typical of what happens in a media dominated society. Only the bad things about a government are reported leading most people to believe that the shower in power are doing a terrible job. The fact is they're not. (this coming from an anti FF supporter). The country's economy did not go into a recession. Inflation has come down a lot with employment prospects beginning to look up again. That for me represents good government. There will ALWAYS be stories like people on trollies to bash any government over the head with. Also maybe theres a reason most of the policies are the same :rolleyes: They seem to be working.

I would tend to agree with vorbis, the government is keeping the economy going. the only problem i have with them is their inability to make a firm decision. instead they just fob us off until something else grabs the media's attention. they also seem to just do what they want without cross party consultation and just because it's good in theory i.e. e-voting, aer rianta, CIE, without actually thinking of the consequences.

ixoy

I honestly can't see how a party with a "radical approach" would automatically change things for the better. The whole system is incredibly intricate. You could give more money to social welfare - where does it come from? Increase taxes? That reduces competiveness. That forces companies out and employment up. It's an incredibly delicate balance and Ireland cannot, in and of itself, be able to knock the system over as many of these organisations wish.

Trebor

Originally posted by ixoy
I honestly can't see how a party with a "radical approach" would automatically change things for the better. The whole system is incredibly intricate. You could give more money to social welfare - where does it come from? Increase taxes? That reduces competiveness. That forces companies out and employment up. It's an incredibly delicate balance and Ireland cannot, in and of itself, be able to knock the system over as many of these organisations wish.

depends on what taxes we increase. if we become more competative with our information type industries, and provide a competative broadband policy then we could get our industry away from manufactured goods which require raw materials and need to be exported, both of which require transportation which is a big cost then companies wouldn't mind paying a higher tax as they can reduce costs.

In the long run companies want to reduce cost so that they can get a better profit margin. If we provide an educated work force then they will be more efficient which again reduces costs. tbh though we could do with increasing the higher tax band we have the lowest income tax rate in the EU but we have one of the highest cost of livings due to indirect taxes. these taxes in no way help the less off as they do not differ depending on you income level. so if we wanted to give more to the poor then lets rob from the rich

i'm sure a policy that effects people's spending power would get them off their sofa's and onto the street

ferdi

your all probablyy right, i'm just an idealistic kid.

i hope however, that none of you are under 28.

if u are, lighen up and get onto the streets.

vorbis

I'm under 28 ferdi. I wouldn't say its a case of lightening up. Theres nothing wrong with idealism. The problem is when people dodn't fully understand how the country works as Trebor descibed. After all this country could be doing far worse. As I've already said, papers will always sell if they criticise the government. This however leads people to forget what is actually ok in this country. Its like those guys moaning about the world being a very dangerous place. The world hasn't been this peaceful in centuries.

pork99

the only way to make your political voice/opinion heard is to enguage in mass peaceful public demonstrations, mass communications to political figures and community based movements and meetings.

Sounds good

However there is a fine line between that and mob rule and when you have mob rule the guy with the best armed and/or organised mob tends to come out on top. For example Napoleon in the French Revolution, Stalin in the Russian one.

DadaKopf

ok, set up your own organisation, i'll join.

Yup. Go set up your own little organization if you want. Then go to some 'Another World is Possible' type of march and represent yourselves.

Join in with everyone else in our declaration:

One no, many yesses.

You see, that's what the democratic spirit of the AWiP movement is all about. Unite in opposition to the way things are, and engage in lively debates over differences in opinion about the world we want and are able to achieve. Create the space for democracy to flourish and let's together decide the alternatives.

This is what 400,000 people did at the World Social Forum in Mumbai in 2004, and Porto Alegre in 2003. Experts, activists, rich and poor assembled to exchange views, learn from each other and develop strategies and solutions to the world's ills. Or, next time, come along to the Irish Social Forum and take part.

Hey, ferdi, great post.

twinQuins

The problem with corruption in Irish politics, and indeed in any goverment, is that it relies on the individual politicians view on ethics to do whats right.

Considering that current political systems only allow for those who hold no value to doing whats right to attain power. Now, perhaps that is a bit of an exaggeration, I mean there are good people in power, but not many.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anarchist and until very recently was a communist, but I've always felt that goverments really only allow for crooked individuals to gain power, as per election campaigns, they sway the electorals votes with false promises of hope.

And before anyone jumps on me asking 'what are we to do then, set up some sort of screening process', no. I don't know what is to be done.

As for 'political stagnation', we are indeed wallowing in it. Using a system of governance based on a two thousand year old society? Political progression can only be attained, in my humble opinion, if we are willing to progress in terms of our system of political governance. Again, what is it to be? I don't know.

Has anyone here read Kim Stanley Robinsons, Red Mars? It provides an interesting insight into this. Now perhaps the initial system the first hundred use may seem somewhat archaic, but it works. It probably wouldn't work on a global scale, but it provides a base from which to work.