Did I bet this hand wrongly??

TwoShedsJackson

Right, a recent hand I was involved in on-line (so no tells as such apart from if someone bets instantly etc. which this guy wasn't).

I had QJo, there was about five callers, the flop is 89T, all different suits. 'Fuckin' great I think, flopped a straight, obviously this has to be the best hand or equal best hand if someone else has QJ', so I start betting.

I had to decide whether to bet really high and just steal the blinds/calls or try and reel them in a bit so I bet a fiver with about nine in the pot - two other callers. Was surprised by this but figured to still have the best hand.

Turn card is a rag, a 2 or something, no help to anyone, no risk of a flush as the four cards were from the four suits. There's 24 in the pot now so I bet a tenner, one caller, the other guy folds.

Last card is a 9, ok now theres another nine on the board but I don't figure them to have bet this strongly so far with a pair of nines as they must have guessed I have a straight after the first three cards. Whatever else they have will be two pair at best.

Now 44 in the pot, I put in 20, he calls, he has an 89 so I lose to the full house, nines and eights. I was unimpressed.

Was I wrong to bet the way I did based on the hand I had and the hand I figured him to have or did I go about it the right way and lose to someone prepared to hang in until the river who hit a long shot? Should I have bet more sooner to force him out and make it uneconomical to stay in? I was considering that but he didn't strike me as a player to whom pot odds would mean a lot.

DeVore

Hindsight is 20-20 as they say. Its easy to call the score when the game is over!

From first glances I'd say you didnt bet wrong, or much wrong. I might have put more then a fiver on a straight but then my instinct would be to kill the pot there and then as I dont much like straights. All the same, you have no flush threat, and no house threat either at that point. You have the nut straight so slow playing it is an option.

Analysis: You have lots of strength, not much weakness. Bugger all threats and almost no opportunity to improve your hand (Kx or AK on turn/river only really!).

You got out drawn by a bloke who had a right to be in the pot (which is what you were playing for with the 5 bet... I am presuming you meant it as a milking bet?) and just drew a card he needed against you. I wouldnt lose any sleep over it, jeez, I've made FAR FAR worse plays that I dont even think about because of the INCREDIBLY worse plays that occupy my nightmares... comparatively I dont think you did much if anything wrong personally!

DeV.

Hyzepher

That hand is interesting - you flop a straight, he flops 2 pair. I would say that he put you on top pair or a straight draw and thats why he kept calling. But it is what you put him on that is important.

He never raised during the hand - just flat called. Now this should give you some information mainly that he was on a draw. He was afraid of the straight (whether you had it or drawing it) therefore his 2 pair although good he didn't feel confident to raise - I doubt he was slowplaying otherwise he would have raised on the end.

If I see someone flat calling - especially large bets like $5/$10 (I'm guessing the blinds were $1/$2 or maybe $0.5/$1) I would go all in after the turn. Now if he had called and the 9 popped up then you are in for a serious amount but you are minimising the risk of being out drawn. If you slow play to the river with a caller then you are asking for trouble - especially if the board gets paired.

A lot of people slow play a good flop far too long - slow play it to get an extra bet than you would have if you bet its worth staright off - if you get that extra bet then bet the hand you have - unless it is the stone cold nuts - win the pot right there.

Remember it is about gaining chips and getting a positive outcome and the trick is to know when your advantage has ended.

Hyzepher

Krusty_Clown

With a weak'ish flop, he may have felt that two pair was well worth hanging on to..

He probably put you on an open-ended straight draw after the flop. If this was the case, then when he saw 4th Street, he probably felt he was ahead..
Why he didn't raise you after the river, I don't know..

After 4th street, he had approximately 10.5:1 chance of hitting the full-house. So nine times out of 10, you would have won the hand, with a sizeable chunk coming from the guy with 2 pairs.. So that might suggest that you played it correctly, but got unlucky..

Did he seem like a beginner? Lack of a raise after the river might suggest he was inexperienced.

TwoShedsJackson

Did he seem like a beginner? Lack of a raise after the river might suggest he was inexperienced.

Well I'm a beginner myself but the impression I was getting was of someone who was cautious and probably quite new, yes.

A lot of people online seem to think they're unbeatable when they have two pair, whether it be high two pair or not. I had that tendancy myself when I started and had to beat it out of myself, to lay down the Queens and Jacks paired unless I was positive it was the best hand. That was most likely where he was coming from.

thegills

You bet wrong. He had two pair so was always going to hang in until last card to try and fill the house if the bets were low (€10 / €20 would be low). He knew you had the straight but for the sake of the low bets had nothing to loose. He came up trumps. You should have bet big early once and stole the pot. If he saw that bet then you should have checked next bet and cut your losses.

thegills

DeVore

Krusty is right, 9 out of 10 times you'd have busted him. The only question you should be asking yourself is about that €5 bet. What were your intentions with it?

If it was a milking bet it might have been a little high (as you said yourself you were surprised you got two callers)... if it was a take-the-pot-down kinda bet then it was too low for sure. You gave him 3-1 odds on two pair... he has to call it. If I were taking that pot down I'd have bet 20... now he's fncked on the pot odds and has to a big decision to make. Either way you are happy cos you are ahead and should be winning it.

I've thought about this hand a bit more and I would probably have checked the flop and reraised big if he raised. Otherwise wait for the turn or the river to come with an over card and bet big.

My reasoning: I have the nuts more or less. I can slow play it for at least one bet if not two... if he raises I'll take that and shut the pot down. If he calls I'll let him try and hit something hoping he has one pair at best and makes two or a set. I'm looking to induce an all-in on the turn or river from him or if not from me!


So your question to yourself should be, what did I intend to accomplish with that €5 bet and was it the best way to achieve it. Only you can answer that.

DeV.

TwoShedsJackson

Well with the €5 bet I was hoping to fold most if not all of them, I though maybe one caller if he had a high pair or two face cards or whatever. If I wanted to fold them all I should have bet quite a bit higher, but I'm not good at committing that much (relatively) to the pot in one go.

I suppose I got greedy but not aggressive enough to finish it off before it reached the river, which is what I should have done.

Evil Genius

I would say, you bet it correctly, and he bet it wrong, should have cost you all your money there. He should have max raised, and odds are you would have called, since the full-house was well hidden. He knew what you had since you bet it from the flop, and yet he still didnt raise when he hit his boat.

DeVore

Aye, undoubtedly your opponent bet that hand badly and probably wasn't greatly experienced.

If I wanted to fold them all I should have bet quite a bit higher, but I'm not good at committing that much (relatively) to the pot in one go.

Er... thats a trait I would try to lose fast! I dunno about cash games but for tournies you will get chewed up if someone spots a reluctance to put all your chips in. Trust me I got my head kicked in twice this week by players who noticed that about my play and nailed me to a cross every time... its tough to do but you have to be ready to blow people out of the pot if you feel you want to shut it down or if they go all in to bully you and you feel you are ahead.

DeV.

mewso

In cash games it also depends on how the table is playing - loose-passive, tight-agressive, loose-agressive yada yada.
I play cash games rarely now but I played alot when I started playing and I always sat down at a loose agressive game if I could find one.
At a table like this if I flopped a str8 I would check it immediately and raise any bet followed by a get out of the hand bet on the turn.
Alternatively if my check raise failed (which is highly unlikely) I would put in a milk bet on the turn because you have to assume with no bet on the flop that you are miles ahead and too large a bet will gain you no return.
Either way though I don't think you played it that badly tbh.

TwoShedsJackson

Hmm submitted it to the Bad-Beat-O-Meter but got only 658 which just about made Tough One, a quarter of the way to Soul Crushing, I'd like to know what qualifies as Soul Crushing

careca

Not sure about that bad-beat-o-meter. Just put in a hand where I had a set after the flop and checked to induce a raise. Some guy goes all in on a bluff and hits the turn and river to make a straight. Still only tough one on the bad-beat-o-meter. I reckon soul crushing must be when you lose your wife/girlfriend in a game!! Or is that the 'free to play every night' bad beat?

DapperGent

I think it's a combination of actual cash lost and the amount of betting you put in when you were actually ahead.

I got it all the way up to the top when I had my flopped poker of Aces beaten by a runner runner gutshot straight flush to lose me a million bucks.

mewso

Originally posted by DapperGent
I got it all the way up to the top when I had my flopped poker of Aces beaten by a runner runner gutshot straight flush to lose me a million bucks.

When did that happen. Last Sunday in the Fitz?

Hippo

Unlucky, but you had the opportunity to crush him on the turn...always beware someone flat calling you all the way, esp when you pair the board. Milk bets are a very dangerous tactic, you're much better off piling in when heads up.