Spain pulling troops out of Iraq

dangerman

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3637523.stm

I'm surprised that they're pulling out pre-June 30th - what do people think of this?

While I understand the lack of support, particularly in the wake of the bombings, i feel most sorry for the Iraqis - if more international forces follow suit, the country is going to decend into chaos - I think the Americans have proven that they can't manage the country effectively by themselves; they need all the help they can get. Granted Spain only has 1,300 troups there, but it's still a significant blow to the coalition to have a country pull out.

On the otherhand, with coalition forces gone, some would say Iraq would finally have its freedom.

Also, the impact on American public opinion and George's campaign for re-election - this must be another indirect nail in the coffin.

MeatProduct

I welcome the move by the Spanish government, at least they are some way in touch with their population.

Nick

emmaisbornfree

brilliant news, lets hope every other country follows suit!!!!!!!!

End the illigeal occupation!!

gandalf

Surprised by this as well. I would have thought they would withdraw the troops after the handover. Fair play to the new Spanish Prime Minister for sticking to his guns, I wonder will Spanish food and wine get the same treatment as the French over in the US now.

This is a definate dent in George Jr's re-election prospects as well, as the Axis of Diesel starts to splinter.

Gandalf.

TomF

Oops

gandalf

Tom I think whats happened is the government is carrying out the original will of their people which the previous government ignored.

Gandalf.

TomF

I tried to post a reply, and hit the new topic button, then tried to edit out the new topic and make it a reply, and lost the text. So now I'm just going to say, "Doh!" and watch TV.

gandalf

nps Tom threads merged

FFS just realised you edited that post !!!

Bah can't win

Memnoch

this is excellent news...
I hope other countries follow Spain as it departs from the Coalition of TERROR....

Sand

This is great news for the people of Iraq. Were a step closer to a power vaccumn. Hurrah.

Moriarty

^^

YaY we're all going to heaven!

sigh.

The Muppet

Bad news for the coalition and The Iraqi people. Lets hope for their sake that they will not be abandoned by any other country. Whatever peoples feeling are about the legitimacy of the war its difficult to see how pulling out now will benefit the ordinary people of Iraq.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

krattapopov

gutsy move by spain.... good work

BarryFry

Great news for maniacs with Kalashnikovs!

If you fancy letting off a few clips and dancing in front of a camera, get out there now!!!

The Corinthian

All other things being equal Spain’s departure from the coalition was inevitable. Spain’s recent ultimatum, for UN control of Iraq, was as likely to be fulfilled as Austria-Hungary’s ultimatum to Serbia in 1914 - i.e. not a hope and perhaps was never designed to be accepted anyway. However, Spain’s timing and execution leaves a lot to be desired.

To begin with this announcement comes ahead of the June handover, so that it looks presumptions to say the least. Additionally, it’s still too soon since the Madrid bombings (and only a few days after Bin Laden’s offer of truce), adding credence to the opinion that this decision, regardless of protestations of being the “will of the Spanish people”, is a tacit capitulation to terrorism. Spain could have quietly held out until the June deadline, pointed to the inevitable inadequacies of the handover when it took place and have withdrawn from Iraq with far greater grace. For bonus points, it would have been much closer to the US presidential elections.

Regardless of one’s position in the pros and cons of this sorry fiasco, the new Spanish government has highlighted its lack of experience with this example of ham-fisted Bushesque diplomacy.

mike65

Ditto everything The Corinthian said...

Mike.

ReefBreak

One-Nil to Al Qaeda. Terrorism works, let's kill more innocent civilians on trains and see what we can gain from it.

brilliant news, lets hope every other country follows suit!!!!!!!!

Yeah. Pull out, and let the country descend into a chaos far worse than it's in now.

Yeah. Pull out, and let the country descend into a chaos far worse than it's in now.

I'm just curious but where are all these assumptions that the country would be in more chaos if Coalition forces did indeed withdraw? At the moment they're in there, and theres still a war going on. In fact, the Coalition is seeing more resistance now than when they invaded against Saddam.

So, is this just speculation that the country will be worse off, or rather is it just that if the coalition leaves, theres no assurance that the Coalition will be able to place a puppet/pro-western government?

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
One-Nil to Al Qaeda.

No I'd say 1-nil to democracy, the people of spain elected this man on his promise and he has carried out his promise, very brave.

If only Bertie could follow through on his promises:D

Mighty_Mouse

One-Nil to Al Qaeda. Terrorism works, let's kill more innocent civilians on trains and see what we can gain from it

I would think its democracr thats working

Sleipnir

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Spain’s recent ultimatum, for UN control of Iraq, was as likely to be fulfilled as Austria-Hungary’s ultimatum to Serbia in 1914 - i.e. not a hope and perhaps was never designed to be accepted anyway. However, Spain’s timing and execution leaves a lot to be desired.

First off, this was not an ultimatum on Spain's part, America had said last year that the handover would occur on June 30th. Everyone now know that it will not happen on that date.

Additionally, it’s still too soon since the Madrid bombings (and only a few days after Bin Laden’s offer of truce),

The Spanish PM had said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power. Long before the 'Truce' offer.


The people of Spain were, on the whole, against sending their troops to support the war/occupation in Iraq.
The Spanish PM is simply carrying out the wishes of the electorate by withdrawing.

Hobbes

Originally posted by ReefBreak
One-Nil to Al Qaeda. Terrorism works, let's kill more innocent civilians on trains and see what we can gain from it. Yeah. Pull out, and let the country descend into a chaos far worse than it's in now.

Actually the majority of the Spanish population were against the war in Iraq and troops were sent in against their wishes.

The train probably made more people go and vote.

Btw, AQ said they want Bush to win next election. Does that mean if he wins then the terrorism works?

Btw, AQ said they want Bush to win next election. Does that mean if he wins then the terrorism works?

Well, he's AQ's best recruiter ever.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
One-Nil to Al Qaeda.

I'm wondering...

If bin Laden makes a speech effectively saying "bring it on, I challenge you" to the nations of the world....will you be calling continued American and international action taken against terrorism and Al Qaeda in specific a caving in to terrorism as well? Proof that terrorism works?

What if bin Laden said that he won't attack anyone who breates air? Would youy smother yourself to death rather than capitulating to those damn terrorists?

What cracks me up is this. Prior to the US invasion of Iraq, the only part of that country which had any identifiable connections to international terrorism was the Northern No Fly Zone. Since the US removed Saddam from power, they have created the perfect climate for terrorism and possibly also for fundamentalist Islam to thrive in.

Now bin Laden is saying "leave and we will leave you alone". The most common mindset - as echoed here by Reef and the likes - is that we shouldn't do what he says. Sure we shouldn't. In fact, we should continue with renewed vigour, creating more and better hotbeds for terrorism and fundamentalist Islam to thrive in. We should continue to support any nation which furthers the perception - whether you agree with it or not - that this is indeed a clash of civilisations - of "the West" vs "Islam".

Has it even occurred to those who would make comments like "one-nil" that - if anything - Spain have done what bin Laden didn't want??? That he wanted them to defy him - thus both 'legitimising' any further attacks Al Qaeda makes against Spain (in the sense that Al Qaeda wouldn't be seen as hypocrites had Spain remained) and also ensuring that there was more weight and momentum to the West/Islam and the whole "create a hotbed for terorrism" movements.

jc

emmaisbornfree

Spain could have quietly held out until the June deadline, pointed to the inevitable inadequacies of the handover when it took place and have withdrawn from Iraq with far greater grace.

And what put innocent Spanish lives at risk ? or have poor spanish troops murdered in Iraq ? How can you say such a thing? the people of spain have spoken !

WITHDRAWN NOW AND END THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION!!!!!!!

The United Kingdoms imperial forces such be removed too!!

Stop supporting Bush and Sharons policies in the middle east !

WITHDRAWN NOW AND END THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION!!!!!!!

Its not an illegal occupation. International Law has no power.

have poor spanish troops murdered in Iraq ?

Murdered? They went over as soldiers, carrying weapons. They died as soldiers carrying weapons. Hardly murder.

emmaisbornfree, I really hope you're takling the piss?

Gurgle

There's a traditional term for terrorists who are terrorising an occupying army on their native ground:

The resistance

AKA freedom fighters

Before anyone goes nuts, I am NOT talking about AQ or the attack on Spain, I'm talking about the Iraqis who are enthustiastically resisting the occupation.

The occupation have backed themselves into a no-win situation.
The Iraqis quite clearly don't want them there but if they move out, we could be watching decades of civil war on CNN.

Isn't that why GB senior chased Hussein out of Kuwait then went home ?

emmaisbornfree

No i am not "taking the piss", the war in Iraq is WRONG. There is no UN resolution for the war!! how can you talk about killing people so cheaply???????

How can you support the Bush doctrine of American Imperalisim?

The likes of Cheny and the wolfistein guy have blood on their hands and have more in common with Bin laden and "taking orders from god" are all going to hell.

emmaisbornfree, its not a matter of supporting Bush. Its facing the fact that theres no way to stop him. The UN have no power over the major nations, so invoking them is of no use.

woody

The Terrorists won in Spain, that moron who pulled troops out did think this through.


Oh lets pull troops out because Al Qaidea said they dont like the taste of spainish beer, so everything the terrorists object to europe and spain (Liberals and Moronic Socialists and Leftist scum) they will bow.

Good thing the Yanks and the Brits have there head screwed on as is they pulled out Iraq would fall into the Abyss of mayhem....

Hobbes

Originally posted by woody
Good thing the Yanks and the Brits have there head screwed on as is they pulled out Iraq would fall into the Abyss of mayhem....

I guess the whole June 20th deadline just totally went by you?

Memnoch

Originally posted by Hobbes
I guess the whole June 20th deadline just totally went by you?

what does June 20th do?

handover of power from one American appointed puppet government to another one? but still enforced by military might

yes I can see the handing over of power to the iraqi people and democracy at work here.

emmaisbornfree

Its facing the fact that theres no way to stop him. The UN have no power over the major nations, so invoking them is of no use.

No its not. Its running away from the issues and not standing up to the US and its neo-conserative foreign policies. The EU can get its act together and put forward a coherent policy as an alternative to US interference in the middle east.

For example, a trade embargo on Israel

The UN has power and can pass resolutions to condemn this evil action.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sleipnir
First off, this was not an ultimatum on Spain's part, America had said last year that the handover would occur on June 30th. Everyone now know that it will not happen on that date.

Spain said, following an initial outburst that they were going to pull out regardless, that they would pull out if the handover was unsatisfactory. It may well be, but there is still going to be a handover, and whether it will be unsatisfactory is not yet a done deal.

The Spanish PM had said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power. Long before the 'Truce' offer.

No. The leader of the opposition in Spain said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power, when no one outside Spain cared who he was. The Spanish PM elect reiterated this opinion just after the election and less than a week after the Madrid bombings. Then as the new Spanish PM he confirmed that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq less than a week after Bin Laden’s truce offer. Join the dots.

The people of Spain were, on the whole, against sending their troops to support the war/occupation in Iraq.

So what? I was discussing a strategic diplomatic blunder, not the morality of the policy.

The Spanish PM is simply carrying out the wishes of the electorate by withdrawing.

The US and frankly no other nation cares whether you’re following the wishes of your electorate or not. What they care is that if you make an agreement you won’t U-turn with a change in government. No one wants to make deals with nations like that.

I’m not saying that they should not have pulled out, only that they’ve damaged Spain’s diplomatic credibility in how they’ve done so.

Memnoch

Originally posted by emmaisbornfree
No its not. Its running away from the issues and not standing up to the US and its neo-conserative foreign policies. The EU can get its act together and put forward a coherent policy as an alternative to US interference in the middle east.

For example, a trade embargo on Israel

The UN has power and can pass resolutions to condemn this evil action.

i agree the EU should trade embargo Israel. Unfortuantely the US will veto any resolution against israel in the UN security council. A trade embargo imposed by the EU is a good way to start.

Memnoch

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Spain said, following an initial outburst that they were going to pull out regardless, that they would pull out if the handover was unsatisfactory. It may well be, but there is still going to be a handover, and whether it will be unsatisfactory is not yet a done deal.

No. The leader of the opposition in Spain said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power, when no one outside Spain cared who he was. The Spanish PM elect reiterated this opinion just after the election and less than a week after the Madrid bombings. Then as the new Spanish PM he confirmed that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq less than a week after Bin Laden’s truce offer. Join the dots.

So what? I was discussing a strategic diplomatic blunder, not the morality of the policy.

The US and frankly no other nation cares whether you’re following the wishes of your electorate or not. What they care is that if you make an agreement you won’t U-turn with a change in government. No one wants to make deals with nations like that.

I’m not saying that they should not have pulled out, only that they’ve damaged Spain’s diplomatic credibility in how they’ve done so.

i disagree. The issue isn't one of spain's diplomatic credability. Spain's PM's first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE's wishes. It seems that in this day and age people constantly forget that that is what elected democratic governments are supposed to do. We should be hailing the New PM as a hero for his courageous actions.

Just because people like Blair and Japan's PM ignore the wishes of the majority of their electorate doesn't mean it should be condoned.

Why should the Spanish PM, continue to carry out a policy that was set by his predecessor against the wishes of the majority of the countries people, simply to appease america?

Finally we have a politician that upholds the promises made before an election. We need more men like this in power, listening to what their people want. Not dictating what they think is best, due to their own narrow minded intersts and propaganda eg Bush and Blair

halkar

So what now? Spanish Pm gone in Bush's black list like Saddam was? Will Bush go look for WMDs there and accuse them off supporting terrorist? And if he wins the election will he be off to Spain to liberate them too:D
Viva España :cool:

lili

Originally posted by ReefBreak
One-Nil to Al Qaeda. Terrorism works, let's kill more innocent civilians on trains and see what we can gain from it. Yeah. Pull out, and let the country descend into a chaos far worse than it's in now.

terrorism works because the bush administration geostrategy in the middle east.

Seaneh

This is idiocy of the highest order.
Anyone who "celebrated" this move is a effing idiot.
I know, why don't we just take all the KFOR troops out of Kosovo and all the nato troops out of Bosnia and coratia as well?
Sure, who cares about the people that live there? A nice war lord will take over and make them all happy.

lili

Originally posted by Seaneh
This is idiocy of the highest order.
Anyone who "celebrated" this move is a effing idiot.
I know, why don't we just take all the KFOR troops out of Kosovo and all the nato troops out of Bosnia and coratia as well?
Sure, who cares about the people that live there? A nice war lord will take over and make them all happy.

i think those which created this chao should handle with it. france and germany warned bush. he didn't listen, and more, he pissed on UN!

Seaneh

I am going to give you the only reason Germany, Russia and France didn't support the invasion, and it's not morality, or UN regulations.
Oil for Food Programe.
They paid about 1/8th the OPEC price of oil as long as that stayed in place.

lili

Originally posted by Seaneh
I am going to give you the only reason Germany, Russia and France didn't support the invasion, and it's not morality, or UN regulations.
Oil for Food Programe.
They paid about 1/8th the OPEC price of oil as long as that stayed in place.

do you want my opinion?
if i was the french gouvernment i would stand in the US side. sharing the cake with them instead to risk the cancel our investisment in iraq.

Villain

Originally posted by Seaneh
This is idiocy of the highest order.
Anyone who "celebrated" this move is a effing idiot.
I know, why don't we just take all the KFOR troops out of Kosovo and all the nato troops out of Bosnia and coratia as well?
Sure, who cares about the people that live there? A nice war lord will take over and make them all happy.

LOL, Man I think you need to calm down, Spain have every right to pull out, you should respect that decision not curse it. The US should be able to handle the mess they started.

Seaneh

I am clam, I just can't understand why people would be happy about this.
It isn't in the intrest of the Iraqi people, and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.
I didn't support the war, but I do think it is a good thing that Sadam is gone, and so do the vast majority of Iraqi people. But any of the coalition pulling out at this stage is Idiocy, it helps nobody.

Villain

Originally posted by Seaneh
I am clam, I just can't understand why people would be happy about this.
It isn't in the intrest of the Iraqi people, and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.
I didn't support the war, but I do think it is a good thing that Sadam is gone, and so do the vast majority of Iraqi people. But any of the coalition pulling out at this stage is Idiocy, it helps nobody.

It might help save Spanish soldiers being killed, it might help the families of the Spanish soldiers sleep again

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Memnoch
i disagree. The issue isn't one of spain's diplomatic credability. Spain's PM's first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE's wishes.

Actually no. His first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE. As I’ve already said twice or more times, I am not disagreeing with what he did as how he did it. It was a badly executed policy regardless of whether the policy itself was good or ill, popular or not. And he has not represented his people well in the manner in which he has executed policy.

If you took the time to read what I’ve written you’d see that I’ve not condemned the policy of Spanish withdrawal from Iraq anywhere, only that this policy has been executed in a ham-fisted and Bushesque fashion.

Fools rush in, after all.

lili

Originally posted by Seaneh
It isn't in the intrest of the Iraqi people, and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.

so what do you call hero's attitude?
bombing a country? using technoligical weapons?

Moriarty

Originally posted by irish1
It might help save Spanish soldiers being killed, it might help the families of the Spanish soldiers sleep again

Since when has the medium/far-left been intrested in the plight of coalition soldiers? Sure aren't they all baby-killers and war criminals?

geezup

Originally posted by Seaneh
...and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.

What about respect for the Spanish people ? WE, the Spanish, didn't support the war, but that freaking muppet of PM we had before, wanted to please Bush so badly.... well, offer Bush your ass but don't get the Spanish people in a war they don't want.

The pull out has nothing to do with the trains, it was a promise if he was elected, and he said that long before the bombs. So its not cowardice. He did what he promised to the Spanish people. That's it. And he did right.

Memnoch

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Actually no. His first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE. As I’ve already said twice or more times, I am not disagreeing with what he did as how he did it. It was a badly executed policy regardless of whether the policy itself was good or ill, popular or not. And he has not represented his people well in the manner in which he has executed policy.

If you took the time to read what I’ve written you’d see that I’ve not condemned the policy of Spanish withdrawal from Iraq anywhere, only that this policy has been executed in a ham-fisted and Bushesque fashion.

Fools rush in, after all.

i disagree,
why should he leave his troops to die in iraq, or get involved in fighting, not to mention his troops kill iraqis as part of this illegal occupation.

Are the lives of his troops, or iraqi civillians worth this "diplomacy" you talk about?

Would you send your son to death to please the coalition diplomatically? I think not.
The less lives that are wasted in this facade the better.