The skanger debate

dglancy

I know this has been debated at length on boards, but one angle hasn't in my opinion.

Yesterday, I spent a day in Dublin city, doing nothing in particular - just enjoying the city. Almost, every part of my day was affected to one degree or another by the "typical dublin skanger"

* Hassle down the back of the 39 bus. Smoking, shouting abuse, anti-social behavior. You know. The usual. Thank goodness for Sony and earphones!

* Numerous attempt to hustle money from me while walking around the city centre. At least 8 serious approaches. Seriously, some of these people should visit Cambodia to see what true desperation is. (sorry, shouldn't be so judgmental).

* A good lot of hassle from a skanger sitting under the AIB ATM machine across from the Olympia. Can be intimidating. And sometimes I can't find an ATM that doesn't have someone between your legs. It makes me uncomfortable. It's a natural response - try sitting under the legs of an animal and see the reaction!

* Went to the UGC cinema to kill some time. Went that bit too early. 5-ish. Skanger time! Damn. Shouting and disturbing everybody in the theatre. No consideration. Typical.

* Nothing serious today. Just a kind of annoying and unpleasant background noise, which always seems to be present. Of course, after dark it can sometimes be a different matter.

Anyways, I am told by the media, politicians, TV, Gardai, etc. that it isn't the skanger's fault. That "the system" has failed them.

What's the system? I guess I'm part of the system. But I haven't failed them. I try and leave them alone, pay taxes, not be threatening to anyone, etc.

It appears to me to be getting worse.

Why do I have to care about a skangers problems (discussed at length in the media), when they seem to care so little for everybody else around them?

Why am I being blamed for anti-social behavior?

sceptre

I'm probably one of those bleeding heart liberals with leftie tendencies that has ideas about the "system" failing skangers.

And it has - in an ideal world people would have the choice whether to become skangers or not.

However, there are plenty of people who came from bad backgrounds, poor backgrounds and terrible family backgrounds who turned out fine and even did well for themselves financially and/or became valued members of society. Some of them post on boards, I know some people with such backgrounds well.

Sometimes it's the skanger's fault. Sometimes it either isn't or it's less of the skangers fault. There are plenty of people who go for anti-social behaviour and can't blame it on their backgrounds. Equally there's certain anti-social behaviour (such the examples you cited of smoking on the bus & people acting the plonker in the cinema) that can't be explained away completely by the most bleeding-heart leftie.

I'd like to write a semi-decent post about this but I'll need some time to think about it. For the moment suffice it to say that even as a social softie, I don't disagree with what you've said. I do believe in punishment tempered by education for those who wish to avail of it. I do believe society has a responsibility to those less fortunate. I also believe in allocating resources so that people can live their lives without being seriously inconvenienced (or panhandled)

dglancy

I'd like to write a semi-decent post about this but I'll need some time to think about it.

I hope you do as I would really value peoples opinions on this.

I'm altogether a bit of a leftie myself. I'm a card carrying union member for christ's sake!

To be clear as well, I don't mean to be racist, I use the term 'skanger' as a description of behavior. One of my best friends is from a so-called 'bad area' and he seems to hate the skangers more than I do! Maybe it's like previous smokers hating smokers more than non-smokers do!

Of course, I'm going to put up with them. No choice.

What I would really like to hear is why the media seems to portray it as almost a PAYE workers (i.e. common person) fault.

Is it, we don't pay enough taxes or wont let tax money be spent on disadvantaged areas?

We won't vote in a politician who is soft on skangers? Is there such a thing?

And most of all, why do I have to "turn the other cheek" all the time because of there behavior?

dglancy

Oh, any before I forget. Nothing annoys me more then skangers who think that everyone else are - rich khunts - because they have a job.

It's not considerate, and shows that they really don't think about anybody very much but themselves.

Do you know what? I think the characteristic which most describes a skanger is ... greedy. Think of nobody but themselves. Not fellow public transport users, not tourists, not workers, not shop assistants, not cafe owners, not bus drivers, certainly not the elderly, not me. Just themselves.

chewy

there can be aggressive beggars but you just said ppl sitting under atms machines are automatically skangers ie all homeless people are skangers you never made a distinction,

i don't like it either i've had to work to actually be more considerate to homeless people, im not there yet, i think they want to talk as much as they want money

this thing that people think paying taxes is the height of social responsibilty!!!

its not, of course ya need money put you also need peoples time, if you want to contribute to society, you could give some of spare time to those less fortunate then yerself volunteer or paid work teaching kids something

the main answer to skangerism is education....

you've alot to learn (as have i) but i think by evening asking the question you've started sometimes it hard to ask these questions incase you say something not pc


oh btw theres no escaping white mans guilt

gom

as Chewy says

The answer to your Skanger problem is that u have a problem. You feel its not your fault and that some how you have no responsibility to society. Its that individualism that fuels teh "I don't give a damn about no one but ME" that has created all of the social ills of teh US, UK and now Ireland.

Lighten up, grow up and accept some responsibility. Its not just skangers that need educating and attitudes changed its your own Attitude that needs to be changed 'Bud' !

Victor

Originally posted by chewy
the main answer to skangerism is education....

Largely yes. 50% of people from Dublin 8 don't pass their Leaving Cert. However, it goes beyond that. Other people need to be informed / educated as to conditions in these areas. I walked past Fatima Mansions recently and it literally looks like parts of it are still in the 1940s, but another part has a modern playground. Some of the nearby streets look like bombed / burnt out Belfast in the 1970s - right next to Luas.

Originally posted by chewy
oh btw theres no escaping white mans guilt

Are Irish people White (in the WASP way)? I saw a little skanger abuse a black English woman, calling her a black [insert random insult]. She threatened to rip his head off and stick it up his butt. He didn't know how to reply. What he doesn't realise was he will probably be more marginalised in his life than she will be.

Theres this sort of evolution sortof happening to Irish Society. Looking like scum is popular. Look at kids (13-19) and you'll find the majority, go out of their way to look like crap. This generally includes shaved heads, Hoody's, white dirty runners, ripped jeans etc. We've all seen them. The girls are no different, with similiar setups. And with the fashion sense of a goat jumping off a cliff, these people also "try" out the scum mentality.

Which can come to the surface, in any form of manner such as rowdiness (never that bad a thing), violence, verbal abuse, extreme littering, defacing public & private property etc. It seems to be the way things are going. And most of these kids are from middle class families.

Sure, there's the scum that was always there from poor families, and while, i don't like them, i can accept them, cause they have little choice. But its these fashionable scum types i have problems with. The "natural" (you know what i mean, can't think of proper word) scum types, aren't usually that bad, its these kids misssing school, hanging on street corners, or walking around in grps of 10, are the real problem.

What to do? Pack the lot off to military college. :rolleyes:

As for the scum that comes with being poor, its a choice thing. I know plenty of poor people that live their lives the same way as everyone else. Sure they can't afford the same lifestyle, but they have the same standards towards the law, property etc that we do. The people that act like scum in the city streets, country towns etc choose to act that way. They need to be treated with zero tolerence, and they might learn that its not the way to go.

Lighten up, grow up and accept some responsibility. Its not just skangers that need educating and attitudes changed its your own Attitude that needs to be changed 'Bud' !

yes and no. We all need to lighten up, but at teh same time we need to actually enforce issues with minor scummy problems. We all have some problem with a prt of irish society, whether its immigrants, knackers (my personal hatred), the poor, other ethnic backgrounds etc. irish people i have found can be quite bigoted and racist. Huge generalisation, but i'm judging from 27 years living in Ireland, in 7 different towns/cities.

chewy

Why do I have to care about a skangers problems (discussed at length in the media), when they seem to care so little for everybody else around them?


cos being a human you should have compassion which doesn't expect anything in return

sounds lofty but it's true and very simple...


why don't they seem to care..... hmmm
any suggestions

Victor

Originally posted by dglancy
Do you know what? I think the characteristic which most describes a skanger is ... greedy. Think of nobody but themselves. Not fellow public transport users, not tourists, not workers, not shop assistants, not cafe owners, not bus drivers, certainly not the elderly, not me. Just themselves.

They're a bit like silver BMW drivers then eh?

cos being a human you should have compassion which doesn't expect anything in return

sounds lofty but it's true and very simple...

Sounds good, but for myself, i'll show compassion to those in need. Those people are just in need of a kick up the ass. They have the opportunity to act like acceptable members of society, they choose not to. <Shrugs> Sure, you can take the compassionate stance, but, when they come to your car, and do 3k worth of damage, while you're at work, would you feel the same?

I don't like scum, cause i've been mugged twice in my life. I've been beaten up for no reason another three times. In all cases, by middle class scum.

any suggestions

I doubt i'd get away with suggesting what i'd like seen done to them, in here, or anywhere. :dunno:

They're a bit like silver BMW drivers then eh?

Lol. spot on. heh

Zaphod B

Originally posted by chewy
i think they want to talk as much as they want money
...
the main answer to skangerism is education...

Two good points you made there; the majority of homeless people are not scum (sorry to use that word but it's the most appropriate tbh), I often talk to homeless people and usually they talk back to me rather than demand my cash with the threat of violence (I do give them some change though, it's the least I can do after inflicting my gibberish on them). Senseless violence and antisocial behaviour in my experience is practiced by those who choose to do so regardless of their financial situation.
Education does help, but IMO that means education at home, not just at school. Although I usually lean quite far to the left I have to be careful not to do so too much in case I fall over so I'll try and regain my balance by saying that however someone's brought up, however society treats them, however they were educated and whatever they do for a living if they have one, they can and often do choose to become scum. Sadly we can't always blame society.

Originally posted by klaz
I don't like scum, cause i've been mugged twice in my life. I've been beaten up for no reason another three times. In all cases, by middle class scum.

I think I hear the sound of a hammer hitting a nail in the correct manner. The problem isn't people who are poor, or people who are homeless... it's people who are scum. Scumness, scumnificity, whatever we choose to call it, is a choice of lifestyle rather than something that's imposed on you.

I'm lucky enough to have never been 'poor' but I've known plenty of people who are; I'm related to some. Quite a few people I know have at one time or another been homeless, in jail or just generally not in a good way. Sometimes they begged, busked... the difference is they didn't hassle. Most homeless people in my experience don't hassle. A lot of people who have hassled me at one time or another would be classed as middle class, and almost everyone who's ever hassled me regardless of their background or financial situation was at the time wearing more expensive clothes than I've ever done in my life.

Scumbags don't have to be poor, and poor people don't have to be scumbags; scum can be found in all tiers of society and are usually identified by their rampant aquisitiveness and more importantly general lack of respect for everyone they come across who doesn't dress and think exactly like them.

Sparks

Originally posted by klaz
What to do? Pack the lot off to military college. :rolleyes:

Yes, because lessons in military tactics, armed and unarmed combat training, and an altered set of ethics are just what's needed....

Yes, because lessons in military tactics, armed and unarmed combat training, and an altered set of ethics are just what's needed....

Not the army. Military College. Discipline, and purpose in life. Better than them hanging around on every street corner causing trouble, don't you think?

TacT

Yes and once you've given people this kind of training, don't you think it's just slightly possible they might come back to the streets with what they've learnt and use it to their own advantage afterwards, could be you? Have seen some scumbags pull off nice roundhouse high kicks on guys 2 times smaller than them to show their mates and laugh at the poor bugger getting a beating and demo all in one! This is not a solution and I have to take the leftie stance and say that society has failed them to an extent

Everyone must find their own way and some need more guidance than others. I come from a middle class family, we're well off but the youngest 17year old brother seems to have a serious liking of white adidas, reebok - skanger wear, shaved head and it's not just the shoes, he'll be wearing the whole tracksuit. He'll be off out to meet the girly with her big hoopy earrings and bleached blonde and matching tracksuit even though she comes from an extremely wealthy family!

These people need to be shown that there is more out there for them so that they take advantage of that instead of turning to other crap such as drugs and dealing to take the most extreme example, which is also funnily enough nearly all I hear teenager's talking about on the back of the bus but it's not just "do ya reckin we can get some o dat smoke?" It's "yeah we need to sort that out and get a few hundred quid together." Dealings and beatings aside from the girls seem to be the most popular choice of conversation amongst them right now.

All I remember from being that age was girls girls girls and of course the messing around getting someone to get us booze or whatever but we weren't moving weight and talking about it openly on the bus while smoking ciggy's, rolling joints and pissing everyone off.

Scumbag is a state of mind as much as it is from your background or how poor your family may have been. It's just a damn crying shame that everyone thinks it's so fantastic right now amongst the teenagers.

The kids such as my brother will have to snap out of it themselves and cop on but people from poorer backgrounds need to be shown more or they'll never know it exists! Take the average scumbag from Dublin they seem to somehow focus on the pub, football and women and this is all some of these kids know to exist sadly enough

A few years back myself and a bunch of lads teamed up with the Digital hub and Guinness with some folks from the area around James's Gate. It was part of some project for children in poor area's around the city centre. We got ourselves a bit of space in James's Gate by the tower and proceeded to build some skateboarding ramps which turned into a little mini-park within a week. There were a set bunch of kids there for the week that were helping us build the ramps, cut wood, take measurements and we were going to show them skateboarding (some recreation along with the wonders of technology - computers just to give them a taste of "what you can do")

So they came in each day and the folks from the digital hub would show them around the computer's, the internet and just gave them an introduction to it. Some of them didn't want to leave the Pc once they'd sat down and my heart really bled for them because you know that he only has access to it for this week while he/she is here and will probably be wanting one after his/her first taster and setting up an e-mail account, viewing funny pics and educational websites. There were 8 pc's there and a MAC set up with some real-time video editing software programmed by some guy from the digital hub. The kids took turns between the computer's and skateboarding. We had some cool gadgets to get the kids interested and the main one was skateboarding helmets with mini-cam. So some kid is skating around and his mate could be at the MAC recording his movement and adding effects to it, slowing it down - whatever!

The point you ask? A lot of the Kids took to the skateboard and/or computers and others took to wanting to cut the wood into fancy shapes after watching us with the jigsaw

They don't know what's out there, they are living in a world they know nothing about and they need to be shown what's out there before you're going to get them to take an interest and eventually develop their character and social skills around what they are doing as well as with the folks at home, school or out in the middle of a field playing football.

[rant] I got jumped by 10 odd 16 yr old wannabe scumbags because I didn't give them a ciggy a few months back, received a bottle over the head and managed to stumble into the pub across the road before they beat me senseless - problem - they have no idea how fragile life is [/endrant]

ixoy

Originally posted by klaz
As for the scum that comes with being poor, its a choice thing. I know plenty of poor people that live their lives the same way as everyone else. Sure they can't afford the same lifestyle, but they have the same standards towards the law, property etc that we do. The people that act like scum in the city streets, country towns etc choose to act that way. They need to be treated with zero tolerence, and they might learn that its not the way to go.

Ah I find myself in agreement with you again. We've gotten increasing liberal towards certain groups of people and have their attitudes changed? Has the skanger outlook become better? Like hell. I've known people from both rich and poor backgrounds, none of whom ever felt the need to adopt this anti-social selfish behaviour. None who felt the need to be abusive to others on buses, trains, et cetera. I, and those I associate with, respect others. This basic common decency is something anyone can do, regardless of their material wealth. By all means try and address some societal problems at the root, but do not try and use it as a valid excuse for behavior because we can all point to people we know who didn't trudge down this path but had the same upbringings as our beloved skangers. Money and upbringing are influential in how you treat other people but that should never absolve you of civic responsibility. People need to learn to be responsible for their own actions and stop constantly casting blame elsewhere.

Zaphod B

True. I'm not saying that society isn't responsible for homelessness, unemployment and way too many people not knowing where there next meal is coming from. I'm not saying society isn't responsible for crappy education, lack of opportunities and encouragement, often lack of incentive to get a job even when you can...

What I'm saying is there are people living on the streets surviving on handouts... who don't insist on knocking your teeth out and running off with your wallet. They're not a minority, they're the majority.

There are poor people who've avoided school all their life, some of them don't have jobs... but they don't always choose to go down the town and cause problems for other people. Even if they sit at home watching the box all day it's better than going around harrassing people.

Tact it's good that you decided to do something and I wish more people would get involved in that kind of thing. But I have to question if the kids who turned up for the skateboarding and using the computers were the same kids who introduced you to the wrong end of a bottle... I'd doubt it. Like most disadvantaged kids they probably weren't aware they could do these things, didn't know about the opportunities for them. It doesn't necessarily follow that they'd choose to go around shouting abuse at random people and generally making their lives difficult. That's a choice that has to be made by everyone regardless of their background and present situation - Will I use my time to cause problems for other people or not? Most poor people, regardless of their education, choose not to. I'm not sure about others but I never meant to suggest I have a problem with the homeless and the jobless - they need help. My problem is, quite simply, with people who choose to treat everyone else like dirt. They need to be shown quite clearly "You Don't Do This" before you can help them get a better quality of life. Because until you do they won't have an attitude that will actually get them anywhere. Just sympathising with them does them no good.

As for middle-class scumbags (and to my mind the label scumbag is more appropriate for these), they really do need a good slap. Sorry but when reaching for an excuse they can't use education, encouragement or choice. They have the money and the education; they're in a position where they could even be helping other people as well as themselves and instead they choose to annoy other people. I've no time for them and I don't see why we should spend our time wandering why they make the choices they do when we could use the time and effort helping the poor, the unemployed and the homeless.

I'm not saying that society isn't responsible for homelessness, unemployment and way too many people not knowing where there next meal is coming from. I'm not saying society isn't responsible for crappy education, lack of opportunities and encouragement, often lack of incentive to get a job even when you can...

Society often can be responsible for these things, but also the person involved and the choices they made in their lives, reflects strongly on where they are. Society is often given as an excuse for every homeless or poor persons situation. Often its poor choices on their own behalf thats landed them where they are. Society is not to blame for everything. Oddly enough i'm agreeing with you, but i felt i had to reiterate it in this format.

Yes and once you've given people this kind of training, don't you think it's just slightly possible they might come back to the streets with what they've learnt and use it to their own advantage afterwards, could be you? Have seen some scumbags pull off nice roundhouse high kicks on guys 2 times smaller than them to show their mates and laugh at the poor bugger getting a beating and demo all in one! This is not a solution and I have to take the leftie stance and say that society has failed them to an extent

Of course its not a solution, but its constructive criticism. Its better than saying that Society is to blame and then being gentle with these people. As for what these people would learn in such a college? Sure, they'd learn unarmed combat, but so what? I can learn that from any number of organisations in Ireland, and more often than not the fighting these people learn on the street, is far more dangerous, than what they'd learn elsewhere. Ask any martial arts instructor, and they'll admit that they have alot of respect for street type fighting.

These people need structure, and discipline in their lives. Anyone remember that Japanese film, where disruptive students are sent to an Island and told to kill each other? Very extreme, but i found myself thoroughly enjoying the concept happening to these scum types.

The leftie stance is a cop-out. You're transfering blame away from the people responible. These people are responsible for their own lives. Sometimes, leftie theories almost place Society as God, which controls everything. Its not true. Society is the environment that we as Human Beings have created around ourselves. It is not to blame.

Scumbag is a state of mind as much as it is from your background or how poor your family may have been. It's just a damn crying shame that everyone thinks it's so fantastic right now amongst the teenagers.

True, its almost a fashion statement. The new Rebelious phase.

They don't know what's out there, they are living in a world they know nothing about and they need to be shown what's out there before you're going to get them to take an interest and eventually develop their character and social skills around what they are doing as well as with the folks at home, school or out in the middle of a field playing football.

I respect that you're willing to do this. I'll admit that i'm not. I live my life within the constraints that my social peers have laid out for me. I live within the law, i choose my actions carefully, and i try to enjoy my life without it screwing other people over.

I got that way through the choices i made and the experiences that i saw. I went out there and experienced what i wanted, and learnt from them.

These people are scum. I'm sure someone here can mention social experiments or textbook links that prove that they're not. But i've seen with my own eyes how some of these people act, and frankly a zero tolerence attitude may just thrust them back into living in the real world. They've been shown how to live by the people that stick within the laws, and they've chosen for good or ill to deviate from those normal behaviours.

But hey, I really hope your activities work. I really do.

Badgers

Staaaary buds!

Knackers, scumbags, skangers they're all the same and a good general rule of thumb for avoiding them is to know what you're facing. If you see someone with all of the following: a baseball cap, a track suit, many rings/necklaces, shaved head except for a tuft/slimy crown of hair and a loping swagger that just screams 'Wha ya lookin' at?' then the best action is to avoid eye contact and walk swiftly away.

The eye contact thing is very serious, if they think you're looking at them for longer than permitted (0.6 of a second) then they'll usually attack or become agitated, especially if in a group.

If you and some friends are passing near a bunch of these primates it's best to not say anything aloud to each other as they'll immediately notice your accent/ability to speak properly. This will usually cause them to call you a fag or a homo or a puff (they must have categorised homosexuality into varying levels depending on the desire to insult), or if they're only vaguely interested they might lob a beer can in your vague direction.

They all seem to have an innate need to smash things up. Those more liberal and caring elements of society will explain this away by claiming the knackers were beaten as children or had a bad upbringing etc. Obviously these excuses are of no concern to the fine upstanding citizens who are taunted/beaten/robbed/annoyed by the scumbags in question. In fact many skangers, who are so blind as to not see that their very mode of dressing designates them as both useless and unappealing to humanity, will often question why they get inferior treatment in society.

Education is one possible solution but due to these people's tendency to destroy everything that is handed to them it doesn't seem like it's going to solve the problem anytime soon. This doesn't stop some people claiming it is the only solution.

However, a realist, with a view to population equality and a lack of morality, would perhaps suggest neutering or some other quick and clean method. It would work but would never get past some peoples objections. I suppose it all depends on how strong your morals are or if you're religious.

TacT

They're not my activities to start with, I decided to pitch in and help out because I could at the time and it was going to be a bit of fun. I did it to help some friends, for my own gratification and help (in a way I deemed fit at the time) some people that are more than likely less fortunate than yourself and could do with some sort of a boost or military discipline or whatever you think is going to do the job.


So I'm a softie, is that the point? I never said society was entirely to blame, I was just pointing out that sometimes it can be. It's all down to a case by case basis, when you refer to "these" people, are you referring to the ones that are likely to break into your car and rob you or the ones that just came from a poor background and could perhaps have been miseducated or abused or god knows what went on amongst their social peers/family that influenced their lives and possibly the choices they make/made?

My opinions/ideas/silly examples are clearly far wilder than some film about a bunch of bad boys from Japan sent to an island to kill each other alright. Perhaps we could put a similar system in place and they can kill each other for us because you deem them to be bad people and unworthy of existence?

They need structure and discipline - definitely not the only two things that will be getting you through your life and on your merry way, how come you've got all the answers all of a sudden and nobody else thought of this before, this kind of comes into where parenting or education can be to blame because that's where they should be learning these things surely no? They need encouragement and praise, rewards, the list goes on and structure and discipline slot in nicely amongst a host of others I will not be listing.

leftie stance - Me copping out or you failing to accept it as my point of view/opinion because yours differs and you don't like mine?

Like you, in some cases these scumbags grew up with a different set of constraints than you did and as such it COULD have influenced their actions later in life as they were not appropriately educated and have completely different beliefs to you (whether that be the home or the school or a combination of a whole host of other things I'll leave it up to you to decide.)

These people are scum - Why? Perhaps it's because they were less fortunate than us in our upbringing then again as I said up top - case by case basis. There could be a million reasons for it, I threw out the first example to come to mind.

ZaphodB - you are right but there is always an exception to the rule and who the hell knows - maybe his father used to beat him with a cane everyday? You just can't put it down out on the table crisp and clear like that and I think a lot of the posters on the thread are trying to simplify a terribly complex problem within our society that cannot be pinned down to one thing you have both said - choice. I think we've had our fill of ban the violent movies or video games to take some example - people have tried to lay the blame anywhere and elsewhere.

I can tell you something for definite on the subject though - they need something.

lol Badgers

TacT, I wsn't trying to make a dig at you, I really do respect what you're trying to do.

But I do believe that the leftie view of blaming society is a cop out. These people chose to be this way.

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
But I do believe that the leftie view of blaming society is a cop out. These people chose to be this way.

Do you believe that Sociology is just a load of old cobblers?

Do you believe that these people are genetically predisposed to being <insert your preferred insulting term here>, and then choose that lifestyle because it is the best thing for them?

Because lets face it...two base areas impact who we are as individuals - our society, and our genetic makeup, and you're saying that society is not the cause.

So seriously klaz....do you believe in a 'skanger gene'?

jc

Bonkey, what i'm saying is that blaming society is a cop out because the way people turn out is dependent a number of factors. Society is one of them. Genetics is another. But our own choices and decisions also have a major bearing on how we define our lives.

Sociology is not a load of "cobblers". The study of society and its influences on our lives and such, is quite an interesting subject. And after doing part of it in college, i can agree with it. Which is why i don't agree with the concept of blaming society as if its some sort of entity that controls our lives.

ixoy

Originally posted by bonkey
Because lets face it...two base areas impact who we are as individuals - our society, and our genetic makeup, and you're saying that society is not the cause.

So seriously klaz....do you believe in a 'skanger gene'?

I'm not klaz but I'm in agreement with him on this thread. Noone here is saying that society isn't *a* cause. What we're saying - well I assume klaz is saying - is that people shouldn't be saying, "Well I slashed your face with a broken bottle. Not my fault though - society did this to me." That's where I draw the line and demand people take responsibility for what they did. I've known people who've suffered hell due to this "skanger" mentality and they've lived in the same neighborhoods but never acted like this. At some point people must own up to their actions and stop hoofing blame. Society is a factor but never should it be used to excuse a bastard being a bastard.

Zaphod B

Originally posted by TacT
My opinions/ideas/silly examples are clearly far wilder than some film about a bunch of bad boys from Japan sent to an island to kill each other alright. Perhaps we could put a similar system in place and they can kill each other for us because you deem them to be bad people and unworthy of existence?

Silly suggestions about getting them to kill each other aside, I thought Battle Royale made some great comments about society panicking and trying to respond to social issues without understanding them - in that case the state responding with the ultimate in zero-tolerance when they fail to understand the youth. Understanding is definitely required here.

Originally posted by TacT
I can tell you something for definite on the subject though - they need something.

No arguments there; but simply sympathising with them is absolutely pointless. Just watching them go about their business and saying "Ah it's not all their fault" helps no-one, least of all them. Which is where I have great admiration for people who set up and help with the kind of activities you did. While I may not think the left-wing stance is always right on this subject, it's anything but a cop-out - it involves trying to understand a lot of factors and come up with a constructive solution rather than just saying "Lock 'em up".

My opinions/ideas/silly examples are clearly far wilder than some film about a bunch of bad boys from Japan sent to an island to kill each other alright. Perhaps we could put a similar system in place and they can kill each other for us because you deem them to be bad people and unworthy of existence?

Not quite. You see i do believe they have a right to their existence. I'm not seriously calling for them to be killed off. I just thought the film to be amusingly appropiate. However, I don't think they need to be treated with kids gloves just because people might think they've been mistreated by society.

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
But our own choices and decisions also have a major bearing on how we define our lives.

Yes, but what forms our decision- or choice-making process? Again, its either sociological or genetic at its base.

So either these people ahve been influenced by society, or they are genetically predisposed to being - as posters are putting it here - skangers. Personally, I don't buy the latter - that its genetics.

Which is why i don't agree with the concept of blaming society as if its some sort of entity that controls our lives.

But society is an entity that controls our lives.

Where the mistake comes in is how people look at society. Yes, society is to blame for most of the ills within itself, such as the problems of "skangers". However, who should carry the responsibility for this withing society is another question.

What we're saying - well I assume klaz is saying - is that people shouldn't be saying, "Well I slashed your face with a broken bottle. Not my fault though - society did this to me."

But isn't it true - to a degree - that society did do this to him. Whether or not that excuses the action is a seperate issue entirely....I don't believe it does, personally....but denying the origins

hat's where I draw the line and demand people take responsibility for what they did

Do you take responsibility for what you do? Do you accept the responsibility that ensues from the inequalities engendered by Capitalism - that the less well off will inevitably feel disenfranchised.

Do you accept that the more those in a relatively more well-off position turn their back on the less well off, the more and more alienated those less well off become?

Do you accept that ultimately, it is far easier for the more well off to do something about the overall societal problem than it is for those who are actually affected by it, because it is those who are not affected by it who have the resources to try improving things?

Do you accept these responsibilities personally, or do you just feel that they are "societal responsibilities" ???

Because if you don't, then asking that someone else shoulder their personal responsibility would seem somewhat hypocritical. And that, ultimately, is what the "lefty" position stems from that I can see. It is not that the aim is to excuse the individual for his actions, but rather to hold them as accountable for their actions as the rest of society would hold itself to its actions relative to the problem.

My problem is that most people want to blame A or B. They want the skanger to be blamed, or they want society to be blamed. No-one seems interested in saying "who cares who's to blame...how do we fix the problem", and about the same number seem interested in saying "we must all acknowledge our failings in this area, because we have all failed".

jc

Badgers

Remind me again why neutering wouldn't work.

TacT

Badgers - better ask the folks over at humanities - that's a whole new can of worms you're trying to open up into the thread there! SHOOO

bonkey hit the nail on the head.

klaz - First off - sorry, seemed like that to me (jumping down my throat). Continuing from where bonkey left off - On one hand you're telling us that society is not to blame for anything but then on the other hand you're saying people must accept responsibility for their actions. My point of view on this is - give back a little of the goodness that was given to you by society/your parents or your social peers/education system/school/life whatever helped you get your bearings when you thought you knew it all or not, then reality came knocking.

Sure it has it's flaws/downsides such as creating greater divides within social classes which can lead to aggression or whatnot but I think it's safe to say that the system in place is here to stay and however it may change the same basic rules will apply and for now it's the best system we have that we should be making the most of by helping where we can and certainly not ignoring each others problems?

I don't treat them with kid gloves unless they're kids which was the case on that week in question and if that makes me a leftie well then hell I'm a leftie but I'm right footed and right handed and I can't help but feel sympathetic when I saw some of the situations these kids were in, that's just my reaction due to my personality - you might like to point and laugh at them

I don't see how me being sympathetic towards them is anymore useless than klaz there saying "it's not my problem, you deal with it or maybe society should?" Shirking responsibility - laying blame elsewhere. You say you are a part of our society, you pay your taxes yada - we all do that, I mean woopdeedoo.... and some of us even pitch in a bit of our free time to give thanks to society for looking after us when we had no idea what was going on out there ourselves and we ran around clean/safe places to play and grow up in oblivious to how cruel the world and people we live with can be. I think that's what it boils down to for me anyway, I won't deny you your opinion on the matter but it does seem a bit hypocritical and thankless to me from my point of view.

Tempted to say - why haven't the government/local councils decided on a few programmes or educational courses or introductary courses or parental awareness schemes and tried the lot out with some of these people and see where the best results or improvements might come from which could possibly help to shed further light on the problem at hand.

It's not like I walk around town and see some scumbag kid(s) and go awwww bless his/her/their poor little soul(s), (s)he needs to be treated so delicately and looked after properly and be shown what is good in life or what may deviate him from all evil and bring him closer to the lord, I'm no ****ing samaritan for godsake so snap out of that right now please! Empathic yes but aren't we all given different situations? Or when we hear some sad story or you see some homeless guy looking through the rubbish for dinner to take any example.

That end comment from klaz post struck some chord with me - yeah I hope your activities work - they do for me but to each their own. This is my rifle this is my gun etc. These are mine MEMEMEME so neh, you'll have to get your own activities I'm afraid. I could always show you mine and you could try them out and see what you think though!

I'm grateful I found what I want to be doing through my own experiences/choices/events in life and little pushes I got from family and friends to try this out or let's go there and do X and after trying as many things as possible I picked my favourites and stuck with them. The same cannot be said for the less fortunate or less wealthy populace. Is there a chance that giving them that choice could make the difference between them being a bad/good person - in my book there is and that's what I should have said in the firstplace to be clearer.

Yes, but what forms our decision- or choice-making process? Again, its either sociological or genetic at its base.

Only if you take the stance that there is no chance. That there is no luck, and that everything is mapped out by your genes. That your brain only operates the body and that your genetic makeup decides exactly how you perform in society.

You see i don't agree, and i've read books that argue for both concepts. You see, in a family of regular people, with traditional values, there may be a person produced who doesn't conform to those values. How that person came to that point is determined by many factors. genetic makeup is just one factor. It influences us, but its not a deciding factor. Otherwise the army would be made up of perfect soldiers, and all children would be programed from birth to be courteous/obedient.

So either these people ahve been influenced by society, or they are genetically predisposed to being - as posters are putting it here - skangers. Personally, I don't buy the latter - that its genetics.

i on the other hand take the viewpoint that a number of experiences influenced them into the lifestyle they chose. A number of decisions that brought them into living like they do. The choice of whether to take a job or not. The choice whether to make friends with known troublemakers or not. The choice to do drugs or not.

We all are offered these choices, and we decide on our own. Society and its values influences us, but its our choice that determines where we find ourselves 10 years down the line. There are of course random circumstances that are outside our control, however how we deal with these circumstances, also determines how we evolve. Its adapting to what life and nature throws at us.

But society is an entity that controls our lives.

No. The only power that society has is what you give to it. Its like God. If you believe in it, it has power over you and your life. I acknowledge that society as a concept exists but I don't conform my life to it. I'll take the easy option, and allow myself to be influenced by it, but i'll make my decisions myself.

Where the mistake comes in is how people look at society. Yes, society is to blame for most of the ills within itself, such as the problems of "skangers". However, who should carry the responsibility for this withing society is another question.

We created the Society we live in. So yes, society in that concept is to blame, as we are. And as these scum are to blame. It cannot be lumped on Society as the only reason.

Do you take responsibility for what you do? Do you accept the responsibility that ensues from the inequalities engendered by Capitalism - that the less well off will inevitably feel disenfranchised.

I take responsibility for my actions, and how it influences those around me. I take responsibility for the decisions i make. As i hope that they'll take responsibility for the circumstances that they find themselves in. Its called being an Adult.

Do you accept that the more those in a relatively more well-off position turn their back on the less well off, the more and more alienated those less well off become?

definetly. We're humans, and its called survival of the fittest. We can theorise how nice it would be in a perfect state of equality, but we're still predators, and theres still a primate in every one of us.

Sleepy

What they need is discipline and punishment for their crimes in a proper environment. Not mountjoy where they have a comfy cell and their own TV. In a nation where most criminals walk because "the jails are full", "it wasn't his fault", "he hadn't the education" or "prison will just make him a hardened criminal". Sorry, but that's all bollox. If you won't take responsibility for your actions, you don't deserve the right to do them in the first place. If we don't have the room for criminals in our jails, I say bring back chain gangs to build some more or extend the ones we have. This could also be used as a means of giving younger criminals a trade they could use whenever they get out.

ZERO TOLERANCE is the key. If some scumbag smokes on a bus give him a couple of months (I'm serious). If someone assaults a member of the public, send him to jail for a few years (2/3).

Education is necessary and sometimes the only kind of education people understand is a harsh master. Corporal punishment can be a good thing when used properly, unfortunately, given the standard of most of the teachers I had, I couldn't honestly propose bringing it back. That said, if a student hits a teacher, I'd have no problem with the student getting a clattering for it. If his big brother comes in to "sort out" the teacher, he sees jail time.

People will only break the law if they think they can get away with it. The key to keeping civil order is to make sure they won't (or at least that the odds are decidedly against them).

Why should I do any more than pay my taxes? That's the way our society is meant to act. We do our jobs, pay our taxes and obey the law. That's our moral obligation, no more, no less. Fair play to those of you that do, to be honest, I do what I can, but I don't think it should be expected of society in general.

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
Only if you take the stance that there is no chance. That there is no luck, and that everything is mapped out by your genes.

Huh? I said genetic or influenced by society.
Luck figures into your dealings with society.

You see i don't agree, and i've read books that argue for both concepts.

So what do you believe in? That we have a non-genetic, non-influenced-by-the-world-around-us decision-making process? How is this possible?

You see, in a family of regular people, with traditional values, there may be a person produced who doesn't conform to those values.

No offence, klaz, but I thought you said you had done some sociology. Explaining how this doesn't cause the slightest problem to either the genetic, societal or the mixed model is one of the absolute basics.

How that person came to that point is determined by many factors. genetic makeup is just one factor.

Yes, and everything else is societal in nature.

i on the other hand take the viewpoint that a number of experiences influenced them into the lifestyle they chose.

Yes. Indeed they do. Massively. Thats sociological influence in its purest and simplest form.

A number of decisions that brought them into living like they do. The choice of whether to take a job or not. The choice whether to make friends with known troublemakers or not. The choice to do drugs or not.

But those decisions are made based on an evaluation "basis", which is itself formed from genetic and societal influences. There is no true "freedom" in this respect. If there was, then statistical "black holes" like drug-spots, etc. would be entirely random in nature and not linkable to other statistical facts.

We all are offered these choices, and we decide on our own.

No. We decide on our own, after everything else in our life that has occurred to date has occurred. In other words, we make our decision, influenced by society.

No. The only power that society has is what you give to it.

Thats ridiculous. Or do you think, for example, that the still-continuing sexual inequality between men and women is because women choose to be treated differently????

I acknowledge that society as a concept exists but I don't conform my life to it.

Society, in the sociological context, is where you live your life - it is your surroundings, the people etc.

It is neither a concept that one can live life "by", nor something one can live a life without.

I'll take the easy option, and allow myself to be influenced by it, but i'll make my decisions myself.

No - you'll allow yourself to believe that you are making those decisions yourself.

For example : do you support the idea of murder? No? Why? It will be because of some moral stance that you have reached. Why do you hold this moral stance? Well, regardless of how you may have "reconsidered" the problem, initially you hold that moral position because someone else taught you that it was the right one to have. When re-evaluating it, you did so using lessons you had - again - been taught from others.

So do you freely choose that murder is wrong? No, not really. Unless you can say that you freely choose all of the underlying reasoning that the murder-conclusion is based on, as well as the concept of murder itself! Its impossible.

We created the Society we live in. So yes, society in that concept is to blame, as we are. And as these scum are to blame. It cannot be lumped on Society as the only reason.

Correct - we, and they, are both part of society. We, and they, must therefore carry the blame. Not one, not the other. Both.

Then we should look at who has the best chance of changing things. You look at the skanger and say "its just your freely-made choices which are screwing you. Change your choices, and it will be better". And what does this do? It removes our responsibility. Its back to the old binary situation again - its us, or its them.

On the other hand, we can look and ask ourselves what more we can do. Its a problem that effects us, and its a problem that we have the capability to do more to address. Using your very own logic, surely we have only ourselves to blame if we freely choose not do more to resolve it.

Its called being an Adult.

No, its called being responsible. If it was called "being an adult", then there wouldn't be any adults who weren't doing these things....but there's no shortage of them.

We're humans, and its called survival of the fittest.

If its survival of the fittest, then these violently-disposed people have a clear edge. WE should adopt their tactics, lest they win.

Its not survival of the fittest. That notion is entirely at odds with any form of "social conscience". Why do we feed the starving? Why do we pay the unemployed? Why do we give the homeless a roof over their head?

None of these things are survival of the fittest, and if I believed in your logic, I would be insisting that they are only starving, unemployed, or homeless because they choose to be and therefore deserve nothing.

We can theorise how nice it would be in a perfect state of equality

I'm not theorising how nice equality would be at all. I don't believe in equality.

I'm saying that its a very simple case of self interest. You have a problem. You can contribute to the solution. You don't want to contribute because you see it as someone else's problem.

Your choice. You live with it.

jc

TacT

Sleepy - Fair play to those of you that do, to be honest, I do what I can, but I don't think it should be expected of society in general.
So who do you reckon it's up to?

Klaz you can't even admit to human conditioning since birth which everyone goes through and it consequently affects the choices later in your life as bonkey has pointed out. Why do you think there was a time when the girls played with the dolls and the boys played with the toy soldiers and it was wrong to play with the doll if you were a boy? It's because society has literally programmed you to think the doll is not suitable for you when you may have in fact preferred it - where is your choice now?

Sleepy

I don't think it's necessary. If everyone did their bit by working in tax paying jobs, obeying the law and was just generally polite to each other we wouldn't have to put up with this ****e. Those that do misbehave should be punished harshly enough to act as a deterrant to others that might think of following in their footsteps.

It's not my job to take care of someone elses children because they're too bloody lazy to do it. I'm not trying to be selfish here, like I already said, I do what I can. That said, it isn't my job to bring up some lazy bastards kids....

Victor

Originally posted by klaz
But I do believe that the leftie view of blaming society is a cop out. These people chose to be this way.

A guy who works with my brother in law runs a soccer club for 10 years olds in Ballymun on Saturday mornings. They have to have a Breakfast club beforehand as some of the kids don't g et breakfast at home. At one point they had to stop one of the kids after his eighth Weetabix.

Do you really think these kids make their own choices?

chewy

its seems to me somebody said that my suggestion of compassion without return was lefty notion

is compassion a lefty idea?



^reasoned debate^

\/not\/

PAYING YOUR TAXES IS NOT ENOUGH!

have you never had a problem money couldn't fix ?


also sleepy was there ever a law you didn't agree with you ever sued unlicenced software copy a cd etc etc, if you ever ahd under your terms you should probably be in jail....

Redleslie

Originally posted by klaz
I don't like scum, cause i've been mugged twice in my life. I've been beaten up for no reason another three times. In all cases, by middle class scum.

Originally posted by klaz
We're humans, and its called survival of the fittest. We can theorise how nice it would be in a perfect state of equality, but we're still predators, and theres still a primate in every one of us.

Doesn't sound like you're very "fit". You can't even take care of yourself.

monument

Originally posted by klaz
But our own choices and decisions also have a major bearing on how we define our lives.

The choices which are open to us have an even larger bearing on the above.

Zaphod B

Originally posted by bonkey
My problem is that most people want to blame A or B. They want the skanger to be blamed, or they want society to be blamed. No-one seems interested in saying "who cares who's to blame...how do we fix the problem", and about the same number seem interested in saying "we must all acknowledge our failings in this area, because we have all failed".
jc

Very good point - there are no real solutions being offered here except "lock 'em up" - which I personally don't feel is a very good solution. Let me just deal with that for a second...

Originally posted by Sleepy
In a nation where most criminals walk because "the jails are full", "it wasn't his fault", "he hadn't the education" or "prison will just make him a hardened criminal". Sorry, but that's all bollox

Er... right. I'll refer specificially to your suggestion that jail doesn't exacerbate the person's problems, and ask you exactly what experience or rationale you're basing this on. Do you honestly believe shoplifters will walk out of jail and think "F*ck me that was nasty, I'll not steal again"? I think it's more likely that they'll think "F*ck me that was nasty, I'll not get caught next time".
As for the chain gang bit, let's re-word it and it might start to sound sensible. I don't have a problem with community service. If you do insist on putting them in jail then let's give them something constructive to do while they're there that shows them there are things they can do and roles they can take in society. At least then if they re-offend you can say they're making an informed choice.


Getting back to my original reply to Bonkey's post... I don't personally feel responsible; I give my time and money when I can, I'd quite like a bit of reform, I do apologise if I was born into a family who work hard but don't struggle to survive and who brought me up well but believe it or not it wasn't my decision. Do I feel I have a responsibility as a member of society to those less fortunate than myself? Yes - it doesn't mean I'm to blame for their predicament though.

As for your comment on people not coming up with a solution... that still hasn't changed. Even you yourself have just continued your argument about the importance of societal factors without suggesting a solution. The problem I have is that one side of this argument still just seems to be trying to defend the actions of "Skangers" by identifying that societal factors have affected them. I really do have to suggest though, surely the same applies to murderers, rapists, child molesters, terrorists and dictators - there have to be some sociological factors behind their choices too; we can't just say "Ah if someone steals it's because of their upbringing, education, situation and experiences, but if someone rapes a child it's because they've just plain Evil". But in those cases we demand that something is done, whether we're for punishment, prevention or treatment. Why should this "Skanger" issue be any different? Let's actually hear what people want done about it.

Personally I think you need to come at it from both ways. First of all I'll do the Quixotic thing and suggest we improve education, provide encouragement and opportunities and generally try to give people a better standard of living... as if that'll actually happen . (Incidentally Bonk how do you "not believe in equality"... do you mean you don't see it as feasible, or do you mean you don't believe people deserve equal opportunities and treatment?) In the meantime though I don't think just allowing antisocial behaviour to continue is a viable solution either; I reckon community service or other work of some kind (hopefully involving helping others) would be a constructive answer that might also persuade them to engage constructively in society.

Bear in mind that these are just a few of my thoughts and I'd really appreciate other suggestions - like Bonkey says let's turn this debate into one of solutions to the problem rather than just a discussion of the nature of it.

Also bear in mind that I've had a few tonite I hope this makes sense in the morning.

Hairy Homer

Ah go on. Let them talk about Roy Keane on the soccer forum.

Doesn't sound like you're very "fit". You can't even take care of yourself.

Oh i'm capable of fighting maybe one or two people, but a group, no. Can you fight off 6-10 guys? If so, congratulations, you're at the peak of physical power.

Klaz you can't even admit to human conditioning since birth which everyone goes through and it consequently affects the choices later in your life as bonkey has pointed out. Why do you think there was a time when the girls played with the dolls and the boys played with the toy soldiers and it was wrong to play with the doll if you were a boy? It's because society has literally programmed you to think the doll is not suitable for you when you may have in fact preferred it - where is your choice now?

Read what i said. I said that neither genes nor society as an entity have complete control over how our lives are shaped. I've said that they're factors that influence our decisions in life. It is those decisions that determine where we are today.

Huh? I said genetic or influenced by society.
Luck figures into your dealings with society.

Luck, randomness etc figures into all aspects of society and genetics. Rogue genes are available in genetics.

No offence, klaz, but I thought you said you had done some sociology. Explaining how this doesn't cause the slightest problem to either the genetic, societal or the mixed model is one of the absolute basics.

Bonkey, If you want to take everything as being an absolute go ahead. Looks like you're going to anyway.

No. We decide on our own, after everything else in our life that has occurred to date has occurred. In other words, we make our decision, influenced by society.

True. BUT, we also make those decisions by past experiences. By the factors involved in making that decision. You see, i could turn my back on Society, and bugger off to some desert Island. Its not in my genes to do this. Its a choice.

Society tells us to be responsible, to be polite, to get a job, to make money etc. Its your choice to obey what society tells you.

Society is our interaction with others of our own species (humans). If i decide to have no contact whatsoever with humans, their activities,their laws, their culture, i have no contact with society. Then by your reasoning the genes would completely take over. They wouldn't. It would affect my reasoning and decision making, but at the end of the day, it would be my choice.

Thats ridiculous. Or do you think, for example, that the still-continuing sexual inequality between men and women is because women choose to be treated differently????

Partially. Look, If i meet you on the street. I don't know you. I've never met you. There is no connection or history. Any power or influence that you have over me, it given by me to you. I choose on an unconscious level how much power to give away. However, you can, through practice figure this out, and limit the power that you give others. Hence trhe reason why some people are alot more relaxed amongst strangers or iunteracting with beautiful women.

I'll go through the rest in a bit, when i get Lunch.

RainyDay

Hi Klaz

Let's imagine there was a mixup at the maternity hospital, and you were accidentaly swapped with a skanger baby. So you got his family background, his schooling, his medical treatment, his friends and vice versa - he got yours.

Do you really reckon you would have grown up as the solid, upstanding citizen that you are (in the skanger environment), and he would have still grown up to be the skanger?

Sleepy

The Irish system just doesn't work. Most skangers will not respect you if you try and help them. Maybe there's some hope in providing education and encouragement to the young kids.

chewy - there's a massive difference between copyright theft and violent crimes such as mugging people on the street. Yes, both are crimes. This, to my mind is where you need a two tier prison system. One for non-violent offenders (where they serve equally long terms, mind) and a second for the thugs (and yes I include the Foxrock boys in this category).

Jail should be a punishment. Of course prisoners should be entitled to decent food and some chance of rehabilitation. They should, however, pay their way in society. It sickens me that the prison system is so arseways that it costs more to put a criminal in the Joy that it would to put them up in the Burlington. If it means having the scumbags sewing footballs for Nike, I don't give a ****e as long as they pay for themselves. If you act like a thug, you lose your rights imho. None of this telly in every cell nonsense that you have today, hard back-breaking (productive) work will keep any criminal too tired to cause trouble in their cell. Prison should be a deterrant as well as a punishment. More cops are needed to ensure that most (because all is simply unfeasible) criminals go to jail.

A zero-tolerance approach to anti-social crimes combined with increased spending on education in schools and broader education (in terms of community outreach projects etc) is the answer to this problem. I obey the law because I don't need to steal to make a living and because, quite frankly, I don't want to go to prison. I'm not a violent person because I just don't see the point, probably because I was taught manners and respect for others as a child.

Make jail a horrible place to be, education (of some level) a given and there'll be less scumbags.

Otherwise, reversibly neuter the entire population (at the age of 10) and only allow people to have the reversal procedure performed upon the completion of a parenting course which is only available to those who can prove they can support and properly raise a child in this world.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Sleepy
A zero-tolerance approach to anti-social crimes combined with increased spending on education in schools and broader education (in terms of community outreach projects etc) is the answer to this problem. I obey the law because I don't need to steal to make a living and because, quite frankly, I don't want to go to prison. I'm not a violent person because I just don't see the point, probably because I was taught manners and respect for others as a child.

Make jail a horrible place to be, education (of some level) a given and there'll be less scumbags.

There is no evidence that this approach actually works. Thatcher tried the 'short, sharp, shock' military-style bootcamp for young offenders in the 80's - Re-offending rates were the same as 'standard' jails. There was a famous prison somewhere in the US deep south where the governor boasted about how he fed the prisoners for less than he fed the guard dogs - All the same old stuff about tough routines, chain gangs, no TV's etc - Recidivist rates were slightly higher than standard jails.

This approach might satisfy your need for vengance - but it won't solve our crime problem.

Sleepy

Fine, if they're too thick to learn just shoot the bastards so.

Seriously though, how about a three strikes and you're out policy. How would people feel about that? As a law abiding member of society it'd suit me fine...

Redleslie

Originally posted by klaz
Oh i'm capable of fighting maybe one or two people, but a group, no. Can you fight off 6-10 guys? If so, congratulations, you're at the peak of physical power.

So it's survival of the fittest as long as there's a level playing field.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by RainyDay
There is no evidence that this approach actually works. Thatcher tried the 'short, sharp, shock' military-style bootcamp for young offenders in the 80's - Re-offending rates were the same as 'standard' jails. There was a famous prison somewhere in the US deep south where the governor boasted about how he fed the prisoners for less than he fed the guard dogs - All the same old stuff about tough routines, chain gangs, no TV's etc - Recidivist rates were slightly higher than standard jails.

This approach might satisfy your need for vengance - but it won't solve our crime problem.

It worked in New York.

For example : do you support the idea of murder? No? Why? It will be because of some moral stance that you have reached. Why do you hold this moral stance? Well, regardless of how you may have "reconsidered" the problem, initially you hold that moral position because someone else taught you that it was the right one to have. When re-evaluating it, you did so using lessons you had - again - been taught from others.

Not quite. My feelings in regards to murder is that i'm against it because allowing it puts me at risk. Extremely selfish i know. I figure that if the Law prohibits murder, it lessens the chance that someone will try to kill me because i looked at him/her wrong etc. Society tells me murder is wrong. I'm definetly influenced by society's
opinions/rules etc. But the decision to be against it or not to perform the act is my choice.

Then we should look at who has the best chance of changing things. You look at the skanger and say "its just your freely-made choices which are screwing you. Change your choices, and it will be better". And what does this do? It removes our responsibility. Its back to the old binary situation again - its us, or its them.

I got my lifestyle by making a number of decisions each and every day. Whether to take this job, whether to achieve an education, whether to work hard or not. I chose the area in society where i wanted to live. If i wanted to be richer, I would have worked harder, Got a better education etc.
It was a choice. And only i'm responsible for that.

On the other hand, we can look and ask ourselves what more we can do. Its a problem that effects us, and its a problem that we have the capability to do more to address. Using your very own logic, surely we have only ourselves to blame if we freely choose not do more to resolve it.

True. It is our responsibility and theirs. I'm saying that you cannot point at someone and say that the only reason that person has that lifestyle or mentality is because Society has mistrated them. They brought themselves to that point. If we want them to act more live ourselves, then its up to us, to influence them.

But, and this is important, it will be their decision to either join with the rest of us living within the culture we do, or reject it.

No, its called being responsible. If it was called "being an adult", then there wouldn't be any adults who weren't doing these things....but there's no shortage of them.

I agree. Bad choice of wording on my part.

If its survival of the fittest, then these violently-disposed people have a clear edge. WE should adopt their tactics, lest they win.

Survival of the fittest does not need to be purely physical. In our environment, survival also includes the status, and quality of living that we have. For myself, i count myself as being middle of the road. Theres alot of people
who are doing alot better, and alot that are doing worse. It was my choice to get my life to this stage.

Its not survival of the fittest. That notion is entirely at odds with any form of "social conscience". Why do we feed the starving? Why do we pay the unemployed? Why do we give the homeless a roof over their head?

Guilt? You see i donate some money each year to two charities each year, because i can spare it. They don't have it and i do. Saying that, I'm not going to sacrifice my life to helping others. Its my choice. Just as its the choice of others to do so.
For them, they have their own reasons for doing it. Perhaps they enjoy it. I don't know, because i don't feel that way.

None of these things are survival of the fittest, and if I believed in your logic, I would be insisting that they are only starving, unemployed, or homeless because they choose to be and therefore deserve nothing.

Pretty much. I can show compassion for these people, but my own opinion is that their decisions brought them to live like that. Its their choice to remain that way. It may be extremely hard to change their circumstances, but i do believe they have
the ability to improve themselves.

I'm not theorising how nice equality would be at all. I don't believe in equality.

Ah but you are. You're saying that we're all controlled by society and our genes. That makes us equal in the lack of control we have over our lives.

I'm saying that its a very simple case of self interest. You have a problem. You can contribute to the solution. You don't want to contribute because you see it as someone else's problem.

You're jumping to conclusions here. I said that i didn't want to devote myself to helping others. Its my choice to do that. I didn't say that i would do nothing to help in any form. But yes, I do see it as someone elses problem, and until they decide that they need help and are willing to change, i'm not going to waste my time with them.

Your choice. You live with it.

I'll have to, won't I? And its my choice, not society's or my genes. Just as its your choice to live whatever way you do. In fact, what is it you believe, in regards to "skangers"? Because I've not seen you actually say anything abt the thread itself.

Let's imagine there was a mixup at the maternity hospital, and you were accidentaly swapped with a skanger baby. So you got his family background, his schooling, his medical treatment, his friends and vice versa - he got yours.

The full answer is below, but just a comment abt this. Your lifestyle, your friends, your level education are not predetermined at birth. Sure, if you take the easy option and follow the plans of your parents, and don't want any real involvement in your life, these things could be pre-determined. However, for most people, they decide for themselves how they want to live and where they want to live. When growing up I had friends from the Traveller community. Not quite the friends my parents would prefered me to have. I made friends with them, because it happened that way (school/sports etc). A chance effect that i found myself enjoying my time with them. If my friends had been pre-determined by society, these people would have been kept at arms length, not so much because the were travellers themselves,
but rather because of my parents opinions of their families, and their history in the neighbourhood.

Do you really reckon you would have grown up as the solid, upstanding citizen that you are (in the skanger environment), and he would have still grown up to be the skanger?

No, I don't. I think there'd be a chance that he(I) would, but it would depend on the decisions, he(I) would make. Where he makes his friends, does he enjoy school, does he decide to do drugs. I don't believe that its totally dependent on
either society or his genes. Neither society nor his genes decides if he'll do drugs, he does himself. I know a number of "knackers", who come from very troubled families, and yet they've managed to lead successful lives, that don't entail what their families normally live. They didn't follow the future that "society" laid out for them, nor their genes going back, say 4 generations (all troublesome knacker families), which should have decided that they'd be drug dealing, thieving,
troublesome individuals.

You see, I don't do "Hard drugs" (I have the occasional Joint, even though Society tells me thats wrong, but then perhaps thats part of my genes :lol ) not because Society tells me its wrong, but because I've seen their affects on friends, and would rather not take that risk.

The decision not to take drugs is my own. Sure, the law and society does have some influence, but I've decided from my own experiences. I just don't want to live that life.

You see, people are posting here as if either society or genes determine how a person is going to evolve every time. They've decided that its assured that a person will turn out a certain way. I, on the otherhand, believe that a person
will evolve on their own, with both society and their genetic makeup influencing their lives, not deciding them.

Which brings us back to the skanger debate. I believe these people are responsible for the lifestyle, and attitude that they have. They are responsible for it. Society and genetic makeup have an influence. They just aren't total excuses
for these peoples' actions.

The issue with these skangers is that for the most part, they're young offenders, which means that they're under a different legal system than adults. Which made alot of sense in the past, but now i'm not so sure.

A Zero-Tolerence attitude does not need to take the standpoint of revenge or pure punishment, but what it can take the standpoint of making it clear to offenders that they will be punished if they commit crimes.

Whether thats prison sentences, work details, fines etc. I don't really know. What i do know is that past techniques when dealing with these people are just not working, and a new method needs to be applied.

So it's survival of the fittest as long as there's a level playing field.

Oh come on. What i'm saying is that there is survival of the fittest in many areas. I'm better at my job than many other people, which in turn generates more income. Compared to them i'm more successful. At the same time, i'm physically not a powerhouse, so theres plenty of people out there that are capable of taking me out. Yes, its survival of the fittest.
And people accuse me of being deliberately obtuse.

ixoy

Originally posted by klaz
Which brings us back to the skanger debate. I believe these people are responsible for the lifestyle, and attitude that they have. They are responsible for it. Society and genetic makeup have an influence. They just aren't total excuses
for these peoples' actions.

There. You've neatly summated my opinion on the matter as well. Perhaps a socially deprived background increases the likelihood of adopting a certain attitude - it does not excuse it overall though. Like klaz, I also have known people from rough backgrounds who have come out well, without resorting to the base behaviour exhibited by others.

What I find interesting is this notion that we're responsible for their background, and should seek to make amends for it. That there's an owness upon us due to our - possibly - more fortunate circumstances. I pay my way through society as well and have worked many years to achieve this position. Is this work and dedication, this payment in taxes, not enough? Is my general desire to be pleasant to others and treat them as I would wish to be treated, not correct? This to me, seems like being a good citizen. Why am I to take on the burden of other's actions? The skanger mentality is one of extreme selfishness with complete disregard for the disruption and harm they cause other. It's almost the anthisesis of good citizenship. Feeling disenfranchised from society however is no grounds for not having, or being able to work to, some ethical code. In its simplest form, almost Biblical in notion, is the concept of "love thy neighbor" which may masquerade itself more as "be pleasant to thy neighbor". I respect this tenent and it costs nothing to do so. It's pretty good in that sense...

bonkey

Originally posted by Zaphod B
As for your comment on people not coming up with a solution... that still hasn't changed. Even you yourself have just continued your argument about the importance of societal factors without suggesting a solution.

Well, thats partly because I believe it is first important to try and clearly understand a problem before trying to fix it.

like Bonkey says let's turn this debate into one of solutions to the problem rather than just a discussion of the nature of it.

Did I say that?

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
You see, i could turn my back on Society, and bugger off to some desert Island. Its not in my genes to do this. Its a choice.

Why would you make that choice? If its not your genes, what is it? You're fed up of the world around you? The people? You want a change of scene? You're running away from something?

Every single possible reason you can give - other than genetics - for making that choice are based on societal influences. Every single one of them.

Look - there's no point in continuing this line of discussion. In your first response to me, you claimed to know some sociology, and that you agree with it. And yet every single stance that you're taking here snice then in response to the points I'm raising is basically saying "No, sociology is wrong.".

While you persist in believing in an absolute free choice, which you apply to any situation you feel like saying it applies to, then there is absolutely nothing which anyone can say to possibly change your position.

All I will say in closing is that I do find it somewhat hypocritical to say that you have a problem that you choose not to fix because you want someone else to do something about it first.

Why do I think thats hypocritical?

Ask yourself this : what if the skanger has exactly the same attitude as you about their problems? They have - by your logic - the same freedom of choice as you. They freely choose - as do you - to let the problem persist, because they - just like you - are willing to suffer the downsides until someone else does something first.

So both of you will sit there, blaming the other, choosing to continue suffering...and both of you will be on yoru respective moral high-horse about the other person being wrong.

jc