Excellent society destroyed by DIT ignorance.

Hecate

I've just been made aware that the School of Computing in DIT Kevin St. is in the process of shutting down that colleges Networking Society (NetSoc). From the looks of things, certain elements within the school demanded administrative (root) access to NetSocs servers, citing vague concerns about security as their reasons for requiring this access. After putting their case to the students union, the netsoc committee reluctantly granted the schools technicians root on their main freebsd server. Who promptly took the server offline. The webserver was put back online yesterday in order to allow access to several websites that had been entered in a competition (incidentally, netsoc also hosts the websites of at least 4 DIT clubs and societies, who will now have to seek alternative hosting at great inconvenience to themselves).

This is a case of lies, ignorance and interferance in a student run society by a department that has never fully understood how *vital* netsoc has been to many students over the past 4 years, as a platform for final year projects, and gaining practical experience with alternative operating systems through facilities that were simply not provided by the school. The society made huge advances in the past three years; going from less than 30 members in 2001 to well over 300 at the time of writing. In December last, a new server was purchased for netsoc by the students union, allowing them to offer an even higher level of service. What will happen to all this now?

I am a graduate of DIT, and member of netsoc (I also sat on its commitee during my time there), and I am shocked at the school of computings behaviour in this particular issue. After spending 4 years there studying computer science, I was left with the impression that DITs computing courses provided excellent practical experience as opposed to other colleges/universities that were more focused on theoretical aspects. This incident has shattered that impression. It is a step backwards and a destructive act carried out with *little or no* justification.

I do hope this message does some good, if only to make people aware of what is happening, and since I am no longer a student in DIT there is very little I can do but write this post.

(also posted on intersocs.news newsgroup)

ecksor

A few years back (1998 to be precise) I personally wrote a lot of mails, had some meetings and eventually produced documentation in the form of a constitution and some rules that first allowed a DIT netsoc to have the permission to run their own UNIX server (the netsoc wasn't large and hadn't thought about this up to then). After permission had been granted, we merged with the newly formed golem society in the 98/99 year and made some progress towards getting a server which we had shortly after the end of that year. I spent some time as co-admin of that server and was asked to account for the misbehaviour of some of the users of that box in late '99. So, you can imagine that I'm more than sympathetic to the problem that they're having.

However, I have the ear of some of the department of computer science staff in this matter (I was informed that this was happening last week) and from what I hear the current committee are not representing themselves as best they could. When I heard the demands that the DIT computing services people were making I immediately said that I wouldn't have been comfortable with agreeing to the terms requested, but you have to recall that the events of a few years ago when the society apparently (from their point of view) played host to the activities that eventually resulted in several computer science servers being knocked out of commission which caused a huge amount of headache for staff and students at the time. I'd be interested in hearing the committee's take on events, but the version I heard was that the answer was a continuous "no" without any real effort to allay fears or reach a workable compromise.

Surely if their request was based upon detecting misuse and having the ability to audit then some mechanisms to meet this requirement could have been put in place?

Hecate

I'm well aware of the circumstances surrounding this incident, and have heard the arguments from both sides. But the simple fact is this occurred 4 years ago, but the school of computing keeps dragging it out as a justification for obstructing netsocs progress. The fact that the people currently running netsoc were not even attending DIT when this incident occurred does not seem to cross their minds. No incidents involving netsoc or its members have occured in the intervening time.

The netsoc admins have repeatedly tried to demonstrate to the school that they are making every effort to secure their systems, but the school does not seem to understand, or want to understand, these efforts.

Red Alert

Computing Services in UCD seem to strangle our Netsoc's server as well. I don't know whether they have root access or not, however the IMAP and IRC ports are firewalled off from outside by computing services, and they seem only too eager to act as IMRO's puppy dog.

Also what's with FTP being disabled?

pcahill

Hi everyone,

I am the current chairperson of the DIT Netsoc.

The current state of affairs is unfortunate, but there is nothing the netsoc committee could do about it.

It is not security realted - I had personally signed for legal responsibility for all activites on the netsoc machines. Besides, any department that runs red hat 6.2 as their main box, and all ssh as ssh1 can not really do anything in the name of security.

I gave the department the root passwords during the week. After searching the machines they never mentioned anything about any dodge software being found - and to the best of my knowledge there is none there.

There current stance is that they dont want netsoc accessible at all form the outside world - even port 80 is gone. And also societies can no longer have accounts. If netsoc disagrees they must remove the machines from the school of computing labs - with there being nowhere else for them. Really looks like a deparment forcing themselves to run a society in my point of view.

Its a really unfortunate state of affairs, and I feel its bad form to dump all this on students without notice, 4 weeks before end of year exams. This issue cropped up 3 days before the final year projects submission. Another point worth noting on the timing is that it all happened the day after most of the department left the country on their holidays.

It is for this reason that I have adivised all students who do have accounts to copy their websites and projects off the machines as there uptime in the future will be little.

Im my opinion they are really shooting themselves in the foot, espcially considering about half the postgrads used netsoc for there projects in the last 4 years.

Peter

wes

Jesus i remember hearing rumblings about this in class but never taught things would get this far. It unfortunate the way thing have turned out. Also it sucks that there will be no way for us to get to our Linux accounts from outside.

Oh well feck all that can be done about this i guess.
I do have to say i have not been given the best impression of netsoc from what lectueres have said, but i think shutting the soc down completely is a little 2 far as it was very useful to students.

Rew

We are havng huge problems in WIT getting support from the college for our Comp/Net Soc. They turfed us out of the lab we were in (destroying the cabinate we had built to house the servers and pulling the power b4 we got there to shutdown, UPS ran dry...).

Currently we have to rely on sympathic members of lecturing staff to keep the machine housed....

Seems to me the 90% of the time admins of the various comp/net socs are far more clued in on the various issues of running shell boxes then the college admins and technicians which leads to serious ego issues....

DMT

Originally posted by pcahill
If netsoc disagrees they must remove the machines from the school of computing labs - with there being nowhere else for them.

Could ye not try to get the School of Electronics and Communication Engineering on the fourth floor to host them for you, or does the Computing department have their grubby hands on the whole of DIT's computer network???

And is netsoc still accessable from inside DIT? I have some stuff on my netsoc account I want to get at once I pay the one euro account renewal fee...

wes

Originally posted by DMT
Could ye not try to get the School of Electronics and Communication Engineering on the fourth floor to host them for you, or does the Computing department have their grubby hands on the whole of DIT's computer network???

And is netsoc still accessable from inside DIT? I have some stuff on my netsoc account I want to get at once I pay the one euro account renewal fee...

Good question. I think the college is open on Tuesday or Wednesday so you can try then.

I don't think school of computing have there hands on the entire DIT network. The have to ask central services to open ports etc from time to time. So i suspose that trying to get alternative hosting elsewhere is not completely impossible.

ecksor

The netsoc was originally hosted in engineering.

DMT

Originally posted by ecksor
The netsoc was originally hosted in engineering.

Ground floor or 4th floor?
The 4th floor crowd would be more likely to host it seeing as they run a computer engineering degree course now.
As far as I know, the netsoc is all computer science students - not a computer engineering student in sight....

Red Alert

Surely *some* staff member will host it? what kind of server is it? If i was a staff member, i'd love to be able to point at a nice Sun E450 or the like in my office when people come in, as well as keeping the office nice n warm!

seamus

Originally posted by Red Alert
Computing Services in UCD seem to strangle our Netsoc's server as well. I don't know whether they have root access or not, however the IMAP and IRC ports are firewalled off from outside by computing services, and they seem only too eager to act as IMRO's puppy dog.

Also what's with FTP being disabled?

Netsoc abd UCD computing services's network have always been joined, but non-interfering. Nobody in computing services has access to netsoc's systems. Basically, you can choose to use netsoc's proxy to get internet access, or you can choose to use Computing Services's proxy.

I never had problems getting IRC through netsoc's server, since they run a SQUID proxy. Afaik they also run an FTP proxy. Maybe you're trying to access netsoc services through the UCD proxy servers?

DMT

Originally posted by Red Alert
Surely *some* staff member will host it? what kind of server is it? If i was a staff member, i'd love to be able to point at a nice Sun E450 or the like in my office when people come in, as well as keeping the office nice n warm!

I'm sure someone like Paul Gent would be interested in getting the 4th floor to host the netsoc. Going direct to Ronan, the network admin, may not be as productive however...

Doodee

Whats wrong with Comp Science students?

Anyways.
I think its a bit harsh that they can seize control of something like the netsoc server. It really is something that should be maintained by the students/members and nothing to do with the Centrals.
From my experience (alas, im only in first year) central services cut off most ports and have even caused re-scheduling of lectures and labs as insufficient services/software being on the machines.

This is an utter joke.
I think the best example of how a society like netsoc should be run is with the Compsoc in NUIG or else redbrick.

Is there any chance of getting the netsoc voice heard after everyone returns from the easter holidays?
Banners/Posters and notifications?


JP

DMT

Originally posted by Doodee
Whats wrong with Comp Science students?

They jump to conclusions and get defensive - no one said there was anything wrong with comp science students, comp engineering students on the other - a shower of spanners.....

It's time for the netsoc to get from under the oppresive cudgel of the comp science department and move to an engineering department - but avoid the School of Control Systems and Electrical Engineering - they're a bit uptight....

smiles

I'm on the committe of CompSoc in NUI, Galway.

ATM our servers are kept in the student union (one of 'em sits under the VPs desk!) -- we host the student union website as well as websites/services for all the societies/clubs. Try talking to your Socs officer and kick up a fuss in the union (especially since you mentioned that different societies will be affected).

(luckily we're in the process of finishing off obtaining/getting our own server room built -- has taken years of fighting with computer services & buildings but it can be done!)

Good luck with trying to get this sorted lads.

<< Fio >>

pcahill

I am going to see if the SU will host the main box. They do want all clubs n socs to have websites on netsoc so i think theres a good chance of it happening...

If any of you can think of any other possible places plz let me know. Student support for netsoc on this is far more than I expected, Im getting about 10 phone calls a day about it!! anyhow....

cheers,

Peter

sceptre

The UL compsoc have their own chilled room in the SU. I'm not on the committee incidentally but I know some people who are. In the old days (pre about 1997) the (single) server was located in the old clubs and socs office for a while but basic security meant that it took some understanding staff members to donate some floor space to keep the thing going. The SU currently pay the leccy bill, which broadly speaking makes sense as the clubs and socs get quite a bit of slack from the society. Of course now that the SU is broke due to rampant incompetence[1] they may seek to cut back on the leccy.

Try running with the SU. Assuming you got most of your equipment sponsored you're the classic case of a society that gets off its ass to get sponsorship. it's the kind of thing that should be encouraged.


With regard to Red Alert's comments about CS in UCD being happy to act as IMRO's (I suspect you mean IRMA)puppy dog, the problem doesn't lie with CS - it lies with HEANet, who are clamping down pretty severely due to some heavy letters from the bigger record companies. The colleges have received them too (I've seen at least one) but it's HEAet that are doing all the running. In UL the compsoc have taken it on themselves to delete any and all mp3s found on the server, regardless of whether they're infringing anyone's copyright or not. It's a shoddy solution in my view but if people will insist on hosting copyrighted files on their server space they've only themselves to blame.

[1]It's only libel if it's not true. When you don't know how much money is coming in and you've no idea where the money is going it's incompetence at best

po0k

Originally posted by pcahill
I am going to see if the SU will host the main box. They do want all clubs n socs to have websites on netsoc so i think theres a good chance of it happening...

If any of you can think of any other possible places plz let me know. Student support for netsoc on this is far more than I expected, Im getting about 10 phone calls a day about it!! anyhow....

cheers,

Peter

Use that as leverage.
Send out feelers and see if there'd be support fgor a demonstration of some kind.
Maybe a little bit of streaking through the corridors of the Comp Services department. While covered in jelly.

Hecate

Another bit of information that may have been overlooked is that the SU put up over €2000 for the purchase of a new Dell poweredge server last december. I wouldn't imagine they'd be happy to see the school of computing gain control over it, or have it thrown into a corner somewhere.

Netsoc has at least 4 other machines that I know of (including an SGI origin that originally cost the college well over €100,000!!!) , along with a cabinet and other equipment.

Red Alert

Indeed a lecturer i know in Trinners has an SGI Onyx server in her room which was bought by a few of her students, is unaffiliated to any society and serves no purpose at all. Somebody's gotta have a home for these servers.

Mk X

I find this all very interesting, but I think it would help the case for the return of DIT NetSOC if a touch of truth and realism were introduced.

You can not have heard both sides of the story, because nobody has bothered to ask the opinion of the School of Computing or of the DIT on this matter.

Many of the postings on this topic are inaccurate or intentionally misleading. Such mis-information does not serve the long-term aim of the DIT NetSOC, which, I presume, is to get back on the air.

I do not believe that it is in the interest of NetSOC to discuss this matter in a public forum which, of its nature is biased.
I accept the value of such a forum in allowing NetSOC and their supporters to vent their anger at the recent actions taken by the School of Computing, but, if anyone cared to establish the facts of the case, they would realise that the story is not so one-sided as some might care to think.

The DIT School of Computing supports the continued existence of NetSOC, but subject to certain terms and conditions. It is those terms and conditions which are at the heart of the cuurent dispute.

Mark Deegan,
Lecturer,
School of Computing,
DIT,
Kevin Street.

DMT

Originally posted by Mk X
I find this all very interesting, but I think it would help the case for the return of DIT NetSOC if a touch of truth and realism were introduced.

Many of the postings on this topic are inaccurate or intentionally misleading. Such mis-information does not serve the long-term aim of the DIT NetSOC, which, I presume, is to get back on the air.

Do you care to elaborate? What exactly is inaccurate and "intentionally mis-leading"???

Ronin

Since Mx K makes a valid point about everyone not knowing the facts. Perhaps it might be good to get the side we are currently missing.

Being a past netsoc ucd sys admin and co host of what was IT tallaght's compsoc I'm semi qualified to look at it unbiased.

with regard to ucd and netsoc, whenever the admins actually work with ucd services the ports get opened up assuming a legitimate need. I've never seen a case of them saying no to a legit request.

P

Hecate

The computer centre in aungier st., responsible for the overall operation of DITs network, have never been anything less than accomodating to netsoc down the years; by activating services on the firewall, creating dns records and most recently helping netsoc migrate over to the new vlan configuration. The netsoc commitee met with senior members of staff in the computer centre on numerous occasions, creating a good working relationship and atmosphere of trust.

Yes, I would very much like to hear the school of computings side of the story, because so far, they have not given netsoc one....beyond vague mumblings about "security". Fine. Logfiles?, incident reports?.

Ronin

Fine. Logfiles?, incident reports?.

Hehe I think its that kind of attitude thats gotten people in trouble in the first place.

P

Mk X

I think some of you are missing the point.
The School of Computing is not about to engage in public debate as to the merits or otherwise of DIT NetSOC.

We have always been ready to meet with NetSOC to discuss the matter, and NetSOC knows that.

This matter is not going to be resolved in this forum and I don't think that continuing the discussion here will benefit NetSOC in the long run. As far as I'm concerned this discussion is closed.

Mark Deegan,
Lecturer,
School of Computing,
DIT,
Kevin Street.

Ronin

I doubt anyone missed the point.

It was simply a request for more info. But as you've pointed out you're not going to discuss it here. Fair enough.

laters,

P

DMT

Originally posted by Mk X
This matter is not going to be resolved in this forum and I don't think that continuing the discussion here will benefit NetSOC in the long run. As far as I'm concerned this discussion is closed.

You can do what you like, but we're fully entitled to voice are opinions.

In my opinion, I think it would be in the best interests of netsoc to completely move their servers out of the School of Computing.

I remember netsoc being down for the best part of a summer a couple of years ago because the School of Computing wouldn't allow them access to the netsoc server because the labs were locked.

That wouldn't have happened if the netsoc server was in the School of Electronics and Communications Engineering, which is where I think they should try to have their servers moved to.

pcahill

By the way, a few of us are going to have our own dedicated server shortly. We are all splitting the cost of it evenly between a small group of us. If anyone is interested on joining in the group, and want a high quality relyable shell message me. Its going to be non-profit, all money ppl contribute will be spent on hosting.


We do have a limit on the number of accounts we will be issuing, and there are currently 5 accounts available.

This venture is completly independent of any college or anything and there is no critera to join.

thanks,

Peter

vinks

well, if anything does happen to netsoc, i do hope that the "student" owned machines loaned to netsoc will be returned to the rightful owners (the two DEC alpha's), and the cab should be returned to the rightful owners etc... (the two power edges came out of the SU funds for societies and so on...) and of course the Origin2000 belongs to the school of engineering i think.

ecksor

Originally posted by pcahill
By the way, a few of us are going to have our own dedicated server shortly. We are all splitting the cost of it evenly between a small group of us. If anyone is interested on joining in the group, and want a high quality relyable shell message me. Its going to be non-profit, all money ppl contribute will be spent on hosting.

There's already something similar at http://www.dmz.ie/

See http://www.dmz.ie/FAQ/ for details.

Ste.phen

Originally posted by Mk X
I don't think that continuing the discussion here will benefit NetSOC in the long run.

Did anyone else read into this the same way i did...?


Hmm, this is the sort of thing that should really be discussed at http://www.netsoc.dit.ie/bbs

oh. right.

vinks

some one was kind enough to turn of the ports on the firewall, so the http://netsoc.dit.ie/ doesnt work anymore.

Red Alert

The reason why i voiced my opinion on the UCD network at all was that this sorry state of affairs could just as easily be replicated here. On netsoc's own boards they have said that they are 'guests' in the CS server room. Fine by me, if they're guests in someone else's house then they have to play by the rules. My point is that should Computing Services wake up on the wrong side of bed in the morning, Netsoc would then be better called OffLineSoc. Consider if another person takes the helm at computing services and decides he/she wants FULL control of ALL servers? I mean it is possible, although admittedly unlikely.

My reasoning behind this viewpoint is due to an incident which i heard about in Trinners. An sub-net for some kind of cluster belonging to a researcher was prevented from operating, as the equivalent of computing services refused to stop DHCP and other broadcast traffic from crossing the router into the subnet, unless they and they alone could have control over DHCP inside the subnet, in addition to having full root access to the server inside - which was probably holding quite sensitive academic research. As you can imagine, the admin of the server was quite unhappy to have this occur and eventually computing services were forced to back down by the heads of two different departments, but not until the new system was gathering dust for eight months.

Anyway, those little formalities aside, there's one vital piece of this DIT jigsaw missing, can anybody actually say what the straw was that broke the camels back? And to Mr. X, for the benefit of those like myself who are not in DIT, maybe those 'terms and conditions' you suggest should be detailed on these boards so that 'biased' people here might be able to inform themselves.

DMT

Is the DIT netsoc still accessable from within DIT?
And can I still get back my account from last year if I pay the one euro renewal fee?

vinks

Originally posted by Red Alert
My reasoning behind this viewpoint is due to an incident which i heard about in Trinners. An sub-net for some kind of cluster belonging to a researcher was prevented from operating, as the equivalent of computing services refused to stop DHCP and other broadcast traffic from crossing the router into the subnet, unless they and they alone could have control over DHCP inside the subnet, in addition to having full root access to the server inside - which was probably holding quite sensitive academic research. As you can imagine, the admin of the server was quite unhappy to have this occur and eventually computing services were forced to back down by the heads of two different departments, but not until the new system was gathering dust for eight months.

This was this ITAAC replacement cluster that you were probably refering too, it was actually a combination of a few problems that the dept. had, it had to do with the lack of air-conditioning, and the fact that there was going to be 160 or so nodes on the network, so the IS dept. wanted it to be properly segregated from the network, it was to be plugged into the main backbone of the college network afaik, so that different depts. could use the cluster. BTW, they have resolved those issues, have will have another cluster running soon from what I know.

Ste.phen

Originally posted by vinks
some one was kind enough to turn of the ports on the firewall, so the http://netsoc.dit.ie/ doesnt work anymore.

Naah, i'm in the college today and all the machines seem to be offline (netsoc,jives,hyperion). bastards. i had stuff on there!
i think.

DMT

Originally posted by Igy
Naah, i'm in the college today and all the machines seem to be offline (netsoc,jives,hyperion). bastards. i had stuff on there!
i think.

The computing department probably have all the drives formatted already...

vinks

well i guess the saying goes "you should have kept good backups" i kinda really feel for the people who had/have their projects college work on netsoc. and yet the machines are inaccessible. oh well.

DMT

Originally posted by vinks
well i guess the saying goes "you should have kept good backups" i kinda really feel for the people who had/have their projects college work on netsoc. and yet the machines are inaccessible. oh well.

Were the accounts from last year that weren't renewed deleted before the computing department seized the servers?

vinks

afaik from what i was told by a few people, the accounts that didnt get renewed just got crippled shells so you couldnt do anything with them, i think the admins arent the kind that delete peoples files. the files are probably still there.

Red Alert

Hang on here, 'seized the servers'??? Who exactly owns these machines?

vinks

afaik, the machines were bought out of the SU clubs and socs funds (the two power edges) and the two DEC alphas are the "on loan" from students. not too clear on the SGI's though.

ecksor

In all fairness, Mark Deegan is right that this isn't an appropriate place to have this discussion. He's also right that this isn't doing you any favours. Some "well meaning" (I'm being generous) supporters of the netsoc are saying some pretty daft and uninformed things and making your side look bad. Also, while I am not very familiar with the issues here, I do believe that computing services have problems with the attitude (which is backed up from reading here) they've encountered and require assurances about the running of the networking society. Arguing in a hardheaded manner here is pissing against the wind and a pretty dumb tactic.

If pcahill wants me to close this thread, I will.

DeVore

While I agree with Ecksors sentiment and I do think you get more with a soft word and a big stick rather then just a big stick... I would tolerate this being discussed ont his site if it was the only place left that it could be aired. Thats partly what Boards is about, to give people a platform to broadcast relevant topics that wont otherwise see the light of day. Perhaps a dedicated DIT forum might be better but in its absence this is fine.

I come from an EFI "access is a right" sort of frame of mind. I see access to the internet in a similar fashion to access to pen and paper... its generally the first thing to get smacked down in a nasty regime...

Anything seriously libelous will get cut and I think *both*sides should perhaps meet in person and talk this out but I'm not about to shut down such discussion willynilly... why shouldnt the college hear the anger of their customers....

DeV.

vinks

Originally posted by ecksor
In all fairness, Mark Deegan is right that this isn't an appropriate place to have this discussion. He's also right that this isn't doing you any favours. Some "well meaning" (I'm being generous) supporters of the netsoc are saying some pretty daft and uninformed things and making your side look bad. Also, while I am not very familiar with the issues here, I do believe that computing services have problems with the attitude (which is backed up from reading here) they've encountered and require assurances about the running of the networking society. Arguing in a hardheaded manner here is pissing against the wind and a pretty dumb tactic.

If pcahill wants me to close this thread, I will.

your right about that, here isn't really the place, and now isnt really the time, this should have been brought up earlier and not days before project deadlines and mere weeks till exams, which i m sure most students need to worry about right now.