I'm not a Catholic - get my name off that list!

alleepally

I thought this made for interesting reading. It's part of Data Commissioners report published today. Haven't found a link on any site so I have to post the story direct from the full report.

I'd love to know the full story behind the person that made the request to have their name removed from Church records. It's one of those things you read and would like to know more.

---

Catholic Church baptismal records
deletion request not upheld
I received a complaint during 2003 from an individual
living in the Netherlands who stated that he had
contacted the parish priest in a Catholic church in
Ireland where as a baby he believed he had been
baptised in 1978. He had requested to have his name
removed from church records and that his request
had been refused on the grounds that it was not
possible to be removed from the church register. He
stated that he never joined the Catholic church; his
parents had enrolled him without his consent; he
now wished to distance himself from it and there
was no longer any need for the church to keep
information about him.
On investigation of the complaint, the Parish Priest
advised my office that a thorough search of the
Baptismal Registers for the year in question and for
the years before and after that, had failed to reveal a
record of the complainant’s baptism. The Priest came
to the conclusion that it appeared that the
complainant may not have been baptised in that
parish, and advised that should he provide
documentary evidence, for example, a copy of a
Baptismal Certificate, then the matter would be
investigated further. He also indicated that he would
be willing to note the record that the person no
longer wished to be associated with the Catholic
church or to be classed as a Catholic.
With regard to his request to have his data deleted
from the Register, should the relevant record be
identified by him, it is my understanding that the
data could not be deleted from the Register as it is
essential for the administration of Church affairs to
maintain a register of all the people who have been
baptised. Indeed it is of course a factual record of an
event that happened. However the proposed noting
of the register would more than comply with Section
6 of the Data Protection Acts, 1988 and 2003. I
considered the approach taken by the Parish Priest to
be both appropriate and considerate.
I communicated this information to the complainant
but the matter has not been pursued further.

KlodaX

I only found out bout that list recently ... have yet to find out where I was baptised to get removed ....

so does this mean... when I do get round to it... it won't matter? ... that I'm stuck on that list?:dunno:

Rabies

If it was easy i would like to have my name removed from it.

dod

Baptisimal records, certainly from 1978, aren't stored on Computer, so the DPA wouldn't apply.

mike65

I just think its a bloody cheek the way parents go around getting thier kids baptised in the first place....(I am being serious btw!)

Mike.

smoke.me.a.kipper

talk about imposing roles on your kids...

JustHalf

Originally posted by smoke-me-a-kipper
talk about imposing roles on your kids...

It could be worse. They could be dicers.

"Come on now son, ROLE DISE."

Guy:Incognito

i want off the list. I smell a petition brewing

DapperGent

A friend of mine is trying to get his name off the register as well apparently it's plenty of hassle and can take years.

I feel as strongly about it as he does but I'm far lazier.

alleepally

"Baptisimal records, certainly from 1978, aren't stored on Computer, so the DPA wouldn't apply"

Dod, Any personal information whether held in computer format or "manual filing system that facilitates access to information about you" is covered by the act...

The fact that it recorded a factual event, how can it just be "erased" is the point the data commissioner has made.

mike65

Poll started over here

Mike.

gerire

Correct me if Im wrong. The document says the priest didnt delete him because he couldnt find the record and the Data Commissioners upheld that the priest done no wrong in saying that he needed proof of baptism in that parish. And also took note that he didnt wish to be classed as catholic. So where is the problem.

Also would you be considered as a neglecting parent if you took your name off this list, you have children do not baptise them and they
1: Face bullying because they have to leave class during religion because they are different
2: The poor kids miss out on a near guaranteed €1000 for communion and confirmation.
Dunno maybe Im picking here.

BTW If Im classed as catholic it doesnt bother me in the slightest. I only go near the church to get the bus. I do not practice its beliefs. There is no stamp on my forehead to say Im on this list. No I dont believe in a God or any of that stuff. So going to the hassle of "BEING REMOVED" appears to be a waste of time its just old archaeic Ireland coming out

alleepally

Yes you're right gerire. There was no record found. My comment below

"The fact that it recorded a factual event, how can it just be "erased" is the point the data commissioner has made"

was highlighting that for future requests it would seem unlikely that the data commissioner would be able to instruct the Church to remove a baptismal record.

I also cannot understand why someone gets worked up about having their record in parish files.

mr_angry

What difference does it make to you, if you're not a believer? Its not as if people come running up to you and say "Hey - I heard you're a Catholic!"

Why the demand to be stricken off the record?

KlodaX

1: Face bullying because they have to leave class during religion because they are different
2: The poor kids miss out on a near guaranteed €1000 for communion and confirmation.

Yes you are right... everyone should say the are catholic so that they don't get bullied. Whatever you do children ... DON'T stand up for your beliefs... yea thats the right thing to teach your children?!?!

and as for the communion and confirmation money ... don't be stupid. Why not give your child a Bamitsva for the criac while your at it.

What difference does it make to you, if you're not a believer? Its not as if people come running up to you and say "Hey - I heard you're a Catholic!"

Why the demand to be stricken off the record?

it belittles my true beliefs

Bottle_of_Smoke

What pisses me off is their proceedure for getting people confirmed - when you're 12, ie when you think you're intelligent but you're not really, and you know you're gonna get a loada cash,

if i give back all the money to relatives can i be unconfirmed!?

Badly Drunk Boy

It may not be your fault that your parents baptised you when you were a baby, but if it happened and the church kept a record of it, why should you have the right to get rid of the record. The record is the property of the church, recording an event that happened in the past, so why should the record be destroyed?

Say you were on the telly when you were a kid talking about making your first communion, for example, but years later you decided that your religion was rubbish and you became an atheist or converted...Would you have the right to demand RTÉ to get rid of any records of the interview? I don't think so....

Badly Drunk Boy

I agree about the age of confirmation. But they probably know that if they left it any longer an awful lot less people would go for it.

But then again, Barmitzvahs (which were mentioned earlier) are done at the same age as confirmations.

KlodaX

its not that badlyDrunkBoy ... well thats not my problem with it.

thing is .. there is no ceremony for unbaptismal ... its kinda like the mafia .. once you join you can never leave

there should be a record for people with changed faith.

WetDaddy

it belittles my true beliefs

Perhaps, but did it belittle your true beliefs BEFORE you knew about it? Be honest, now...

In all honesty, I just don't understand why. I mean, it's a factual record of something that happened. You can't blame the Church for that. In fact, if you're to blame anyone, blame your parents.

Say, hypothetically, you had a mole surgically removed (for cosmetic reasons) but you didn't want anyone to know about it because you always said "I'd never change my appearence unless absolutely necessary!".

The hospital would have a record of that procedure. Just cause you'd rather not admit to that, doesn't mean that you can demand they delete the file.

And before you say "Yes, but that would have been MY choice", it doesn't really matter because the point is you have since changed your mind, exactly like a baptism.

KlodaX

wouldn't it be nice though to have it on record that you have changed your mind?

but did it belittle your true beliefs BEFORE you knew about it? Be honest, now

yeah what I say about you behind your back does not offend you .. cause you don't know what I am saying. But if you where to find out I was saying something about you that wasn't true.... and I am still saying it ... You may want me to take it back. Ok I can't erase time .. but I can make a new statment and say something different about you.

monument

I don’t think any records or mistakes in any data should be fully removed or destroyed.

Data should be corrected and/or updated, and a note of the correction, updated, and the original data should be made.

Correcting history is fine, destroying history is not.

sceptre

Originally posted by redRogue
thing is .. there is no ceremony for unbaptismal ... its kinda like the mafia .. once you join you can never leave

Isn't that the Hotel California?

A fixed ceremony for "unbaptism" would be illogical. If you choose to adopt another religion they'll have their own initiation procedures. If you choose not to adopt anything you get to make up your own celebration or ceremony in line with your own beliefs or lack of them. I'm assuming you didn't expect a gold watch on your way out?

With regard to the procedure for "unbaptism" you can even do it out of laziness if you feel like it. This is called apostasy a fide or apostasy perfidae. This is the historical term used to refer to voluntary complete abandonment of the Christian religion. It's the term used whether you get involved in Islam, sun-worship, throw your allegiance over to the God Of The Green Melons or dump yourself in the nothing bracket. It's similar to hereticism but the apostate denies the entire religion whereas the heretic denies aspects of it. Simply denying the religion to anyone should be enough to follow the rules. Ironically though, this works best if you still believe in the Christian god (which would make you a heretic rather than an apostate) as if you don't you'd want to deny the religion to someone important. Letter to the pope should do the trick. Don't forget to not take communion between Easter Sunday and Trinity Sunday (inclusive) - it does rather help.

Recourse to the Data Protection Act is unlikely to succeed. If the church is using your baptismal details to send you marketing information you can get them to stop doing that. If you were in fact not baptised you can get them to correct the information. Baptism being essentially a business transaction (do people have to cough up a few coppers to get their wee bairn initiated?) it's a statement of record that a particular event happened.

Hey, look at it this way. If you were Jewish and had a bris you'd have a permanent record of your former religion. Water washes off, foreskins are difficult (but not impossible) to reattach.

User45701

Originally posted by Rabies
If it was easy i would like to have my name removed from it.

As would I

Iron Petes

So you're telling me that my prostate is the only thing keeping me catholic. I'll ring the pope and have him remove it right now.;)

Arucard

can someone tell me how i get ex-communicated from the church? i dont wanna be associated with them damn hypocrites

kiffer

How are these records layed out ?
I'm guessing that there is a big page with one line for each person baptised that day...
What do you want? line drawn through your name?
or your name removed and then the whole thing reconstructed 1984 style?

WetDaddy

If you were a musician who played for the Church, you incorporate a tritone into one of your songs.

They were deemed heresy in medieval times and musicians were punished by being ex-communicated or burned at the stake!

mr_angry

Originally posted by redRogue
its not that badlyDrunkBoy ... well thats not my problem with it.

thing is .. there is no ceremony for unbaptismal ... its kinda like the mafia .. once you join you can never leave

there should be a record for people with changed faith.

I still don't quite get it. I know I'm a Catholic, so maybe I don't have the objective viewpoint I would like to have, but if I was baptised into, say... Buddhism (or whatever the Buddhist alternative is), and then I decided I believed in a form of Catholicism, I don't imagine I would really give a stuff about the records of a ceremony I consider to be meaningless.

I'm presuming that if you don't believe in Catholicism, you don't believe that the ceremonies and procedures have any significance? If that isn't the case, then surely you believe that those procedures hold some power over your current beliefs? Are you afraid people wont believe you when you tell them you aren't a Catholic?

Anyway, why not throw a big party some night, celebrating your current beliefs!

I demand an invite.

sceptre

Originally posted by Arucard
can someone tell me how i get ex-communicated from the church? i dont wanna be associated with them damn hypocrites

Easiest way is to give someone an abortion. Paying for it isn't enough - you actually have to carry out the procedure. An ordinary bishop can excommunicate you for this.

You could also kidnap a woman with a view to forcing her into marriage, force a woman to enter a monastery (both of these fall under the Council of Trent), join the Catholic Italian Society for the restoration of the rights of the Christian and especially of the Roman people (but you'll have to get the pope to specifically tell you you're excommunicated for this one), steal a relic from the catacombs in Rome (again, down to the pope), proclaim and propagate the teachings of Martin Luther (specifically the 41 "errors" condemned by Leo the tenth)and Michael Baius, fight a duel (hey, you'll even enjoy it but the pope has to condemn it), join the Masons, break into a convent, sell a few indulgences (but only if you manage to sell them after 1564 - before that everyone was doing it), join a different church that doesn't recognise the extreme right of the pope, kill a cardinal, kill a bishop or papal nuncio, drive a bishop from his diocese, forge an apostolic letter, have sex with a nun, burn down a church or invade the Vatican (most of the last 10 or so things are reserved for the pope to condemn and excommunicate you for). Before about 1830 you could be done for lending money for interest but usury was removed as an excommunicable offence. Pity really, that one was always the easiest way.

I'd run with the Martin Luther thing. Get yourelf a copy of his theses, er, I mean heresies, some nails and a hammer. Nail them to the door of your local church, then proclaim the corrupt nature of the church before driving the bishop out of town, kill the cardinal when he comes for a look, not forgetting to break into the monastery, before completing your rampage by burning down the church. You'll be excommunicated severely in no time.

(edit)
@deathfunk
That tritone ban is long gone I'm afraid. Shame really, as otherwise getting excommunicated would be as simple as singing "Maria" from West Side Story in tune. Ditto the edict saying that women who entered the Bussaco Forest in Portugal would be excommunicated. It was once a lot easier.

DapperGent

Originally posted by sceptre
I'd run with the Martin Luther thing. Get yourelf a copy of his theses, er, I mean heresies, some nails and a hammer. Nail them to the door of your local church, then proclaim the corrupt nature of the church before driving the bishop out of town, kill the cardinal when he comes for a look, not forgetting to break into the monastery, before completing your rampage by burning down the church.

Personally I'd pause to have sex with a couple of nuns after breaking into the monastery but each to his own.

Our man in Havana

Is it not sufficent to just denonce the church in a public place to be booted out?

sceptre

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
Is it not sufficent to just denonce the church in a public place to be booted out?

Kind of - see my first post up the page. Excommunication isn't the same as being booted out though.

As for Dappergent's sugggestion, I had written, "pausing to have sex with a few nuns" but took it out on taste grounds. (ditto with my "Penguins aren't nice without chips" comment, oops).

daveJAM

I dont think it'd be possible to have you're name taken off the list. Perhaps it would be reasonable to have the record updated to indicate that you no longer wish to be associated with the church though.

After all, maybe its possible to be "unbaptised" but it's definately impossible to not be baptised in the first place if you've already been baptised.

The record record's something that happened and regardless of how you feel about it, you can't change the fact that it actually happened.

Our man in Havana

I wonder if you could sue your parents for baptising you against your will? You could join the church as an accessory before during and after the fact. LOL

DerekD Goldfish

how i get ex-communicated from the church?

Apparantly not sure how true this is after a mass suicide in Italy a couple of years back the police investegated and found the only connection was they were all wargamers. The pope claimed these games were un-christian so ex-comunicated all wargamers. So go hang out with some nerds for a few hours and play warhammer of whatever.

KlodaX

Anyway, why not throw a big party some night, celebrating your current beliefs

please don't rip the piss out of me Mr_Angry. Its offensive.

a self proclaimed "non-practicing catholic" ... informs me that I am the same as her. As my name is registered with the church I am a catholic, but I don't believe in that so this makes me a non-practicing catholic.

I just don't want to be labeled. Probably too much to ask from this society.

pork99

Surely what counts is what you put on the census?

Baptism record is, to my mind, no more than a record of who was baptised and when. Not a reliable record of who actually is a practising Catholic.

mr_angry

Originally posted by KlodaX
please don't rip the piss out of me Mr_Angry. Its offensive.

a self proclaimed "non-practicing catholic" ... informs me that I am the same as her. As my name is registered with the church I am a catholic, but I don't believe in that so this makes me a non-practicing catholic.

I just don't want to be labeled. Probably too much to ask from this society.

Sorry - I didn't mean any offence by it. What I wanted to point out was that maybe celebrating your current beliefs more pro-actively would send out a clearer message to people than retro-actively having your name removed from church records? And are you sure your friend isn't just winding you up over this? If she doesn't take your word for it... ... ... well, it seems a bit strange.

pork99

but I don't believe in that so this makes me a non-practicing catholic

Surely even being a non-practising Catholic involves accepting dogma such as pregnant virgins, divine flesh biscuits, infalible geriatric Poles and other such notions?

Arucard

Originally posted by sceptre
Easiest way is to give someone an abortion. Paying for it isn't enough - you actually have to carry out the procedure. An ordinary bishop can excommunicate you for this.

You could also kidnap a woman with a view to forcing her into marriage, force a woman to enter a monastery (both of these fall under the Council of Trent), join the Catholic Italian Society for the restoration of the rights of the Christian and especially of the Roman people (but you'll have to get the pope to specifically tell you you're excommunicated for this one), steal a relic from the catacombs in Rome (again, down to the pope), proclaim and propagate the teachings of Martin Luther (specifically the 41 "errors" condemned by Leo the tenth)and Michael Baius, fight a duel (hey, you'll even enjoy it but the pope has to condemn it), join the Masons, break into a convent, sell a few indulgences (but only if you manage to sell them after 1564 - before that everyone was doing it), join a different church that doesn't recognise the extreme right of the pope, kill a cardinal, kill a bishop or papal nuncio, drive a bishop from his diocese, forge an apostolic letter, have sex with a nun, burn down a church or invade the Vatican (most of the last 10 or so things are reserved for the pope to condemn and excommunicate you for). Before about 1830 you could be done for lending money for interest but usury was removed as an excommunicable offence. Pity really, that one was always the easiest way.

I'd run with the Martin Luther thing. Get yourelf a copy of his theses, er, I mean heresies, some nails and a hammer. Nail them to the door of your local church, then proclaim the corrupt nature of the church before driving the bishop out of town, kill the cardinal when he comes for a look, not forgetting to break into the monastery, before completing your rampage by burning down the church. You'll be excommunicated severely in no time.

(edit)
@deathfunk
That tritone ban is long gone I'm afraid. Shame really, as otherwise getting excommunicated would be as simple as singing "Maria" from West Side Story in tune. Ditto the edict saying that women who entered the Bussaco Forest in Portugal would be excommunicated. It was once a lot easier.

duly noted, expect to see me on the news in no time

MAD MAN NAILS THINGAMIJIGGY TO LOCAL CHURCH, INVOLVES NUDITY!
....you know, for the fun of it, nudity, always good......

KlodaX

Originally posted by pork99
Surely even being a non-practising Catholic involves accepting dogma such as pregnant virgins, divine flesh biscuits, infalible geriatric Poles and other such notions?

true. I wouldn't consider myself a non-practising catholic.

Sorry - I didn't mean any offence by it. What I wanted to point out was that maybe celebrating your current beliefs more pro-actively would send out a clearer message to people than retro-actively having your name removed from church records? And are you sure your friend isn't just winding you up over this? If she doesn't take your word for it... ... ... well, it seems a bit strange.

no offence taken ... I do celebrate my own personal beliefs in my own wee way. I'm sending out a message though.. its no one elses business. Its not a big deal my name being registered with the church .. but if I had the choice I would like it removed or changed... like a little black dot put beside the records of people who asked to be removed.

My friend isn't winding me up... don't think so anyway .. she seemed pretty serious. Ask her yourself ... you know who I'm talking about.

sceptre

Originally posted by KlodaX
a self proclaimed "non-practicing catholic" ... informs me that I am the same as her. As my name is registered with the church I am a catholic, but I don't believe in that so this makes me a non-practicing catholic.

And if Milhouse said he was jumping off a cliff would you believe him? You're a Catholic if you want to be a Catholic. If you don't want to be you're not. If you want to be a "non-practising Catholic" you can be that if you want to be. Whatever the Catholic Church thinks you are is irrelevant. You're your own person aren't you? If you tie your own shoes every morning you get to say "yes" to that. Assume your friend is an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about. She doesn't.

Look at it this way - you're in the position where you think the Catholic church is a load of rubbish. Why would their opinion of what you are actually matter?

chewy

cos they claim to still have you as a follower, and use that to say there not so bad and its okay for them not to come clean on the abuse cases

i don't blame the entire church for the abuse cases but i won't have time for any of them until they put up their hands and do more to sort it out rather then continuing to hide the guilty

and make the tax payers pay the compo

KlodaX

Originally posted by sceptre
And if Milhouse said he was jumping off a cliff would you believe him? You're a Catholic if you want to be a Catholic. If you don't want to be you're not. If you want to be a "non-practising Catholic" you can be that if you want to be. Whatever the Catholic Church thinks you are is irrelevant. You're your own person aren't you? If you tie your own shoes every morning you get to say "yes" to that. Assume your friend is an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about. She doesn't.

Look at it this way - you're in the position where you think the Catholic church is a load of rubbish. Why would their opinion of what you are actually matter?

cause I don't think "the Catholic church is a load of rubbish" ... I respect other people's beliefs.

I'm just askin for a little respect in return.

Yes I am my own person. It's not my point of view I'm trying to change. There actually are .. believe it or not.. very small minded people out there that believe if I'm 'registered' with the church .. then I am apart of it. I can't change the way they think ... but if I could ... I'd unregister myself with the church.