Will Jordan score any points this season?

Nuttzz

Not looking hot for the boys in yellow is it? i wonder if they can manage any points at all this season? I think we will need other peoples foul ups to get anywhere this season

[if a mod could change the question from why to will i would be grateful ]

mike65

Unless its in freak conditons I say no. They've lost the plot entirely.

Mike.

Doctor J

Nope, there is no hope for any of the private teams the way things are in F1 at the moment. The new Ferrari is, what, 3 seconds faster than last years model. Given the insane amounts of money they spend what chance does a smaller team with a customer engine have. To be honest, I think Heidfeld finishing just a lap down was a pretty good achievement for Jordan. Bear in mind he wasn't too far behind the Saubers which, apart from their mega- wind tunnel, have this years Ferrari engine and gearbox (and last years chassis).

Jordan may pick up a point or two but the private teams are doing well just to stay on the track at the moment.

celticfc

Originally posted by mike65
Unless its in freak conditons I say no. They've lost the plot entirely.

Mike.

Exactly, something like Brazil '03 s their only real chance of points.

Töpher

Unfortunately, no. No no no.

Kalina

They may score a few points, if there are any unusual weather conditions or if there's a big crash that puts out the competition. It's a pity to see Jordan doing so poorly.

brainstorm

problably not unfortuantely.... the new modifications to the front wing and the front wheels and tires were supposed to have been copied from or very much like ferraris. supposed to make jordan a second a lap closer to ferrari so they would be about 2sec down...... in bahrain they were 3 and a bit if not more in qualifying....

summit needs to be done there, lack of money doesnt help....

Töpher

It's even more depressing when ya see em mess with pitstops the way they did in Bahrain. Nicky got into 5th due to not stopping early and being on a 2 stopper, so I was expecting him to finish 10-12th if he kept up the pace. But it just shows, the other cars can take an extra 30-40 second break and still finish a lap ahead, so depressing. And I'm sure that +1lap for Jordan is damn close to +2laps bar maybe 10 seconds or something. So can't look at being only one lap down optimistically, IMO.

Kalina

It won't do any good saying it again but if only Jordan could bring back some of the fantastic form of the 99 season....

mike65

Originally posted by Kalina
It won't do any good saying it again but if only Jordan could bring back some of the fantastic form of the 99 season....

They could...if they changed everything!

Mike.

AngelofFire

they will grab one or 2 7th or 8th place finishes this season but quite frankly i cant see them doing much betta unless they have a race like last years in brazil. they ford engine isnt really that bad its just that the money they are spending on it is taking away from chasis development. the performance of the bridgestone tyres is poor.

brainstorm

Theres 2 ways of looking at the bridgestone situation, either:

1) they only care about one team
2) theres only one team who can afford to test all the time to develop the tyre.

In both cases its Ferrari. So then everybody gets tyres suited to a ferrari at best!

Kalina

How long does EJ have left on his Bridgestone contract? Would he consider changing to Michelin in the next few seasons?

Doctor J

Michelin won't accept any more teams. They have publicly stated BAR were the last ones they will allow to come on board.

The sport has been taken over by the car manufacturers, which means anyone without a works engine won't be winning any races. Does anyone truly belive Jordan are getting the same spec engine as the Jag? It might be the same model but I'll wager the Jag engine has a bit more oooomph. If Jordan can see out the next couple of seasons without going broke things might turn their way, either by manufacturers pulling out or by a bew manufacturer entering the sport (VW?). It's the same for Minardi and Sauber (don't forget BAR are foooooked if Honda don't renew their deal.

Kalina

I didn't realise that Michelin aren't taking more teams on, it's just as well cos oterwise all teams with the exception of Ferrari would be on Michelins.

Doctor J

There's new rumours of Jordan negotiating a Toyota engine/gearbox deal for next year.

irishman_abroad

Michelin signed a contract saying they would supply at least 60% of the teams in F1 if asked, and from the teams last year, BAR had the best prospects. It is up to them wheather or not they supply any more teams and as the 6 are already stretching resources(each one can specify a different set of tyre compounds to bring to each race) they have made the decision not to supply any more teams.

brainstorm

i think the rules are: that a tyre company can at most supply 60% of the teams, i think if anyone else wants to change to them then i think it will revert back to just one tyre co, like the days of goodyear.... (maybe this is the case maybe not)

least if they were all on one brand of tyre then we'd know who has a cr*p car all the time as opposed to who is just doing good cos its 50 degrees!

Doctor J

The rule is they must supply 60% of the grid if requested, but they're not obliged to supply any more than 60%

Kalina

I just read on F1Racing.net that Toyota are considering taking on Minardi as a "b-team" in similar fashion to the present Ferrari and Sauber deal, by providing them with engines. If Jordan could just get themselves into a situation like that they could well improve in leaps and bounds. It's a pity that Toyota are considering Minardi rather than Jordan.

mike65

There was idle talk about Jordan using last years Mercedes engine at one point.

Mike.

Kalina

Mmmm, Jordan under the wing of McLaren has a nice ring to it. However McLaren would need to get their own major problems solved first.

PlasseyMinstrel

if anyone should be using lsat year's Mercedes engine its McLaren. Speed is absolutely worthless without reliability - not that it has much speed in the first place.

Jordan & Toyota?
I don't like all this jumping around from company to company thinking a new deal will solve everything. No, problems are complicated and its proven time and time again that continuity is what pays off. Michael Schumacher won 1994/95 with Benetton by developing a team around him capable of doing the job. The he took the entire team to Ferrari in 1996 and it took them until 2000 to get the job done right (admittedly they really were at the top of their game in 99). Now the same team (Michael Schumacher, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Paolo Martinelli and Nigel Stepney) are still there and still the best.

Jordan's best season was 1999 - when they had used pretty much the same Mugen-Honda for 3 years. They beat a works Honda that year - all because of continuity. It takes time for new things to settle in.

I say stick it out with Ford, otherwiseyou're constantly dealing with new teething problems.

As for scoring points, the new system allowing a point for 8th will help and they'll surely get that at some stage. Unfortunately methinks that'll be a highlight of the season.

My prediction: 3 points.

Kalina

It's true that swiching from one company to another won't create a miracle solution for Jordan. But as they're apparently paying a lot of money for the Ford engines that aren't doing anything great for them (and some of that money could be better spent elsewhere) maybe a better deal with someone like Toyota might be the way to go.
Either way EJ needs to do something drastic!

PlasseyMinstrel

Drastic improvements are needed but the point of my post was that drastic changes can cause problems in the short term and if he keeps making drastic changes, it will always be the short term, if you catch my drift.

I don't see Ford lying back like I think Mercedes has done - I don't think its in the nature of the company to consider itself beaten and give up. Ford has to pull something out itself.

Ideal case: Mr. Todt? Can we pweese have one of your old engines you don't use?

Kersh

Heidfeld might. He is good enough. Pantano is brutal. Even in f300 and palmer Audi years ago he was crap, nothing exceptional, so I cant see him scoring, unless all 10 of the front runners (I'm including mclaren here) crash out or dnf.

Kalina

Originally posted by PlasseyMinstrel
Drastic improvements are needed but the point of my post was that drastic changes can cause problems in the short term and if he keeps making drastic changes, it will always be the short term, if you catch my drift.

I catch your drift!!
EJ needs to take a step back, look at all the positive elements (drivers, design team, machinery etc) that he had at his disposal in 1998-2000 and try recapture some of that great form.

PlasseyMinstrel

Originally posted by Kalina
I catch your drift!!
EJ needs to take a step back, look at all the positive elements (drivers, design team, machinery etc) that he had at his disposal in 1998-2000 and try recapture some of that great form.

exactly.

its been the same in every formula the team has raced in - it all goes pear shaped for a while then he gets a big kick up the arse when he realises where he is and needs to step back and take a totally objective view of the entire operation of the team. Maybe an outsider would be better able to do that...

The Beer Baron

PlasseyMinstrel
In fairness, how long was EJ getting the carrot and string from Honda?
And even gave Sato a car to score points with them and...well, </lets the sato thing go> of course in the end Honda didn't choose them anyways.

Net result BAR has a great car.
Jordan was tossed out in the cold.

So yeah, sticking with the team does well sometimes, but other times
it can mean getting the short end of the stick.

I see those BAR's now and I lament for what could have been.

Nuttzz

BAR stop paying JV a shed load of money and look what happens... JV been greedy perhaps?

Guy:Incognito

2 pts for Jordan today. Anyopne see Bono and EJ before the race, was Bono on drugs or something?

mike65

I expect Bono was high on himself - as usual!

Mike.

Töpher

Yeah, he was being a total spa!

Probably the only points jordan will score this season... bah! BUt still, yay for now!

sparkthatbled

Well. jordan scored points! Up heidfeld, up sato, up trulli! I said a week ago that trulli would win it. Anyone else from ireland heading for spa?

sparkthatbled

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
PlasseyMinstrel
In fairness, how long was EJ getting the carrot and string from Honda?
And even gave Sato a car to score points with them and...well, </lets the sato thing go> of course in the end Honda didn't choose them anyways.

Net result BAR has a great car.
Jordan was tossed out in the cold.

So yeah, sticking with the team does well sometimes, but other times
it can mean getting the short end of the stick.

I see those BAR's now and I lament for what could have been.

Yeah, i never got why the deal was given to BAR instead when jordan trounced them that season. Jordans best bet if they change engines is to get an old manufacturer back in such as porsche and lotus just brought out an oomphing road car too. Taking the scraps from toyota, jaguar or mclarens table wont get them in the thick of it like they were in 99. Imagine how high they would have finished in 2000 if they had had better reliability? Jordans worst ever move was the sacking of frentzen. If they'd had him and fisi in 02, would have really beaten BAR to that honda deal.

And just for the record, had he not died senna would have wiped the floor with schumi for another 3-4 seasons.

And jenson button is an over-rated b*ll*x!

PlasseyMinstrel

The point I was making is that Jordan benefitted from continuity as their performance got better the longer they stayed with Honda. Their best season was 1999 - their third year with effectively the same engine (customer Mugen-developed 3-yr-old Honda). The works Honda can be considered a completely new deal and their drop in performance in 2000 relative to 1999 can be attributed to that. Frentzen was in with a chance at the title three races from the end of 1999 with a 3-year-old engine - that's proof of the benefit of continuity. The whole Honda going to BAR thing is a moot point - that's a break in continuity that didn't work for Jordan.

AngelofFire

Heidfeld did very well to finish 7th and without a doubt he deserves a top drive next season. Frank williams is quoted as being a big fan of his therefore he could be in contentian for one of the vacant seats at williams bmw.

Jordan should have seized the works Honda deal in 1999. EJ in an interview with f1racing admitted that if he tried hard enough he could of secured it but he said that he "wanted to continue with the engine he knew best" and also 2it would provide more of a challenge to his team", a works honda deal would have made it "too easy". In 2000 when BAR were given the works deal EJ starts moaning and comes crawling back to honda asking for a works deal. Also the mugen programme used by jordan was diluting honda`s works programme as the company had to produce two engines at different levels therefore honda thought that it would make sense to supply both BAR and Jordan with the same engines. Honda are a fairly small motor company in comparison to giants like Ford, Toyota and Mercedes therefore supplying two teams meant that their rescources were spread very thin and the engine programme suffered as a result in 2001 the honda v10 was 50bhp down on BMW in 2002 it was 85bhp down on BMW. Honda were faced with no choice but to drop one of their teams.

Their plan worked as the Honda Engine has improved dramatically. Jordans worst mistake was not grabbing that works deal in 1999. and they are suffering as a result as 25% of their budget is spent on customer engines from ford this is restricting badly needed finances for the research and development sector.