IT Jobs --- London vs Dublin

DUX

I am thinking about moving to London next summer (I am currently living in Dublin)...I was just wondering whether the IT market is better there than here in Ireland?

More specificaly I am looking for a position as System Analyst - Project Manager, I have 4 years experience, I haven't searched for a new job in Dublin yet as I won't be leaving my company until early June.
I know the wages in London are better than in Ireland but I was wondering if it is also easy to get a job there. I applied for a few positions over there through the internet in the past but it looked like the main problem was the location (the preferred to interview candidates already resident in the UK), so I may consider to give up my job here, move over, and hope for the best.........

any suggestion?

ChipZilla

Pass your CV on to a couple of agencies, and tell them you're looking to relocate. I've got a lot of work through Elan in the past - http://www.elanit.co.uk

The distance doesn't matter - if they pass your CV on to somebody who likes it, flights to London for an interview don't cost a bomb these days. Mind you, I've just moved back to Ireland. You wouldn't catch me back over there again... Best of luck with the hunt.

Cake Fiend

Originally posted by ChipZilla
You wouldn't catch me back over there again...

Because of the job market or the city?

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Mind you, I've just moved back to Ireland. .

Originally posted by ChipZilla
You wouldn't catch me back over there again...

DUX

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

As "Sico" asked, for what reason you wouldnt go back there? for the city or the job market?

What is the best part of London for living and working? Is there any particular area where IT companies are located?

WhiteWashMan

i think my reasons for not moving back to ireland are well know around here.

i dont live in london, but i live within 25 minutes commute, and i go there about once a fortnight for meetings etc.

if youa re looking for work, there is always work in london.

whats an IT company?

what role are you looking for?

i think that most peoples problems in looking for work stem from the fact that they dont know what they are looking for.

IT project management jobs in london are very numberous, and very well paid. usually 50k+ in salary +benefits etc.
but most people just seem to limit themselves to IT companies. whats an IT company? IBM? Dell? Oracle?

IT PM can come from any company.

as for not wanting to go back to ireland?

cost of living is too high.
salaries are rubbish
lack of useful infrastructure investment
too many monopolistic markets who feel they can do whatever they want (eircom for example)
corruption in the government is tolerated
far too many tracksuit wearing knackers (and if that makes me a snob, then so be it, i just dont want them in my life)
did i mention the cost of living anf the rubbish wages?
christ, even the weather sucks.
i find the irish as a populace to be very blinkered and narrow minded.
add racist to that.
and negative + pesamistic as well.
road works take 3 months to complete instead of 3 days
the entire of dublin city centre is a road work
2 pints for 10 euro? i think not,!
irish taxi drivers


god, you know, theres a really big list. but at least i can come up with a list of what i dont like, and i followed my belief by moving abroad. i have no problem with people who want to move to ireland, in fact, you can live where ever you want! but jesus, at least have the courage of your convictions instead of moaning about places and doing nothing (a bit like most irish people actually, now that i think about i )

DUX

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
god, you know, theres a really big list. but at least i can come up with a list of what i dont like, and i followed my belief by moving abroad. i have no problem with people who want to move to ireland, in fact, you can live where ever you want! but jesus, at least have the courage of your convictions instead of moaning about places and doing nothing (a bit like most irish people actually, now that i think about i )

No need to get angry, I am not only "moaning about places", I am from abroad myself and I have been living in Ireland for about 4 years, I also lived in 2 other countries before.

The point is that I have much more to lose now that I had few years back and I just wanted to have an idea of what to expect in London as far as job-market is concerned. I am going there to find "any job" but to find a good one.

Thanks for the other points.

WhiteWashMan

s0rry, that wasnt a rant at you, just in general!

DUX

Originally posted by DUX
I am going there to find "any job" but to find a good one.

I meant to say "I am NOT going there to find "any job" but to find a good one"...sorry for the typo.


No problem WhiteWashMan, thanks for the other info

secret_squirrel

try jobserve.com I've had all my interviews and job offers come from there over the last 7 years or so..Including the last 2 jobs I took. Its not quite as good as it used to be in my opinion tho....but that might be just my critera

Downsides to London.

Can be Majorly expensive. - even by Dublin standards.
Commuting can be a nightmare.
Competition for the best jobs might be fiercer.
Might have to toe the corporate line more than you would in ireland.
As a rule the english are slightly less friendly than the irish - so it might be harder making friends.
There is still an element of 'jobs for the boys' in some companies. (ie you're face has got to fit)
London can be a bit soulless imo.
Lower density of fit birds too

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by secret_squirrel


Downsides to London.

Can be Majorly expensive. - even by Dublin standards.
Commuting can be a nightmare.
Competition for the best jobs might be fiercer.
Might have to toe the corporate line more than you would in ireland.
As a rule the english are slightly less friendly than the irish - so it might be harder making friends.
There is still an element of 'jobs for the boys' in some companies. (ie you're face has got to fit)
London can be a bit soulless imo.
Lower density of fit birds too

London is going to be expensive. dont kid yourself that it isnt. however, the pay is generally a lot more becasue of this. in fact, the average wage uplift is 34% to counter the fact. also, pay in london is a lot better than dublin to start with. ireland seems to still have this idea that its the mid 80's and the pay should reflect this. given that ireland is now one of the most expensive countries in the EU, that leaves a lot of very poor people. i have no idea how you people manage to survive without borrowing and using credit cards to the max.
or can you?

commuting in dublin can be a nightmare. at least the tube and the bus system in london is more reliable. although more expensive. but lets face it, you have to pay for a decent service...

competition will always be firecer in a city of 10 million people. fact. but pay reflects this. anyway, why would you want to be mediocre in youre job?

i think the corperate line is more about the company, rather than the city you live in.

believe it or not, i have always found the english to be extremely friendly. a lot more so than the irish. i moved over nearly three years ago, and i have loads of friends, a great job, which i got through these friends, and i am loving it.
i have yet to see any real way of measuring the friendliness of place,a nd until then, its all conjecture, and i dont think can be used. but personal experience, i find the english more excepting. i find the irish have too many hang ups on religion, the fact that many irish people still hold grudges against the english, and have a pretty blinkered and narrow minded view of the world. thats not directed at any one here, its just in general.

'jobs for the boys' happens in any society. and to be honest, the best way to get a job is through networking. its a fact of life in every industry in every country, and you have to use it to your complete advantage. for example, i have just got myself the most amazing fabulous job becasue i know people. thats not to say i dont deserve it, i cant do it, or im just a stop gap, but its easier to get jobs through people recommending you. you have to build up a network fo contacts and friends. doing desktop support, you arent going to get that network, but once you get out into different positions as your career flourishes, you will find that you meet people. you will find that yuo start making new contacts, and how you deal with these is going to make a huge difference in how your career progresses. so yes, there is jobs for the boys, but it is no different from anywhere else, and it is something that you have to use.
after all, if you were a runner, would you run in bare feet because you thought that 'running shoes' were an unfair advantage? or would you get yourself a good pair of shoes that will help you?
i go for the networking. besides, that way you can be introduced to opportunites that are not advertised. my new job wasnt avertised, but through being recommended etc, i got it. mind you, i did have to have 2 two and half hour interviews!


as for london being soulless, well i dont know. i dont live in london. i live outside the m25, however i have been up there a lot and it seems pretty vibrant to me. i think this is something else that is quiet personal. if youare someone who makes friends and is easy going, you will find life wherever you go. if you are a bit introverted, i thihnkn you may have problems, you may find london soulless, and find yourself very lonely. i guess it all depends on who you are. i joined a hockey club on my first day in england, and i have never looked back. if i sat in my apartment and never left, id probably find it very lonely.
mind you, i dont actually feel the need to live in london!

fit boirds?

you are mad sir?
im not sure how you can calculate the density of 'fit' birds, but whenever i go on the tube or walk around london there are always fantastic looking people of either sex walking about. some of the women up there are amazing. i mean, youe in a city of 10 million, you are going to get more good looking women than a city of 1 million. probably about 10 times in fact!

maybe you just couldnt pull any

london is no different than any other large city at the end of the day. they just happen to speak english, have bbc, and support their local football teams

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
anyway, why would you want to be mediocre in youre job?

My point was that you may not want to get into a high pressure rat-race type job - IMO there are far more important things in life than suceeding and being the best at your job... and IMO London has more rat-race weasely types than most.

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
believe it or not, i have always found the english to be extremely friendly. a lot more so than the irish.

I moved to Dublin from the UK and found the opposite.

RicardoSmith

I'm kinda considering the UK again these days. The money is better and in the IT world at least Dublin has become a rat race. Then you have the dire public transport and the fact that everything is so expensive. Sure the UK isn't cheap but there simply isn't the huge difference in quality of life in Dublin compared to the UK that there used to be. Maybe down the country its different.

galwaydude

Im also very interested in moving to london, whitewashman thanx for all the very useful info, muchly appreciated.What are tech support jobs like in london then as i have nearly 2 years experience now since finishing college.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Sico
Because of the job market or the city?

Bit of both. I lived there for a year, then moved to Glasgow for four years. The pay in London might be bit a better than Glasgow, but I got sick of spending three hours a day driving to and from work, and still having exorbitant living costs. You think Dublin house prices are bad? Wait til you see what London and the surrounding areas are like Life in Glasgow turned into much the same thing after a while, so I said I'd move back. Now I make quite a few grand a year less than I did over there, but the quality of life is better and I'm a lot less stressed.

Cake Fiend

I'm curious because I'm interested in getting the hell out of this country, and London is looking attractive.

I'd be curious about the IT sector over there as well, if anyone can shed some light...

DUX

I have another question, we all know that the wages in the UK are higher than in Ireland, however I haven't got a clear idea of much higher the are.

Suppose I send my CV to an agency in Dublin asking 30k Euro/year, what would be the equivalent I could ask in London in british £ for the same position?
(IT jobs)

With a quick calculation 30k Euro = about 20k £ , however as the wages in the UK are higher would it be too much asking for 30h £ for the exact same job??

I am trying to work out the best way to "sell" myself during the first phone interviews with UK agencies, and usually one of the first questions that comes up is "how much are you asking for?". The risk may be to "oversell" or "undersell" myself, so I need to find a fair starting point with my salary requirements before starting the negotiation.

DUX

with £ above i meant british sterlins

secret_squirrel

I'd try your current salary in euro in pounds as a starting point.... (ie €30k = £30k). Try searching the job sites like jobserve to get an idea of the sort salaries being offered for your skills/experience.

I personally wouldnt work in the centre of london for under £30k regardless of what salary Im on now..... (ie even if I were unemployed!), but thats just me - and easy to say whilst I have a good job

zedsDeadBaby

Funny i should see this thread because i am just finishing up a vb contract in London next week and was looking up jobs in Ireland.
Are they taking the piss with the money at home in Ireland?
One of the posts above is close to the truth. Change your € salary to £'s but you can add another 10-20% again to get the money you would earn here.

I work in the docklands, where most of the IT jobs are at the moment. The lads with me are NEVER out of work over here. The market is starting to boom again here. They get heaps of calls a day from agencies as well.
The economy here is so much bigger than at home so more jobs and less people skilled enough to fill them.
Rent would be around £100 - £200 per week depending on how posh you want to get For this you can ALWAYS find accomodation close to where you work.

Start a limited company in Ireland, work over here and you get €180 a night expenses tax free, so thats your accomodation paid for and more.
but that said, costs of living here are no more than in Ireland. Sure they are more than the rest of the uk but compared to Ireland about the same(maybe even a bit cheaper.
If you are going contracting and have an Irish limited company (don't try it with a uk limited company) you get €180 expenses tax free for every day you work here (as said above). You also get to charge your flights to your company (no tax again).

I want to go home because i miss home, but most love it here.
After looking at the salaries at home i think i'll be staying a while.
Don't be a mug working for peanuts in Ireland, you should definietly get a job in London.

pork99

I'll always stay in Ireland but that's family/friendship ties, sentiment & other such circumstances. Objectively I know there are better places to live and work. Then again I have worked with English people here who loved this country and did not want to live or work anywhere else.

I worked in London when I was a student, did some unbelievably crappy jobs, had a brilliant time, loved it and very nearly stayed there.

i find the irish have too many hang ups on religion, the fact that many irish people still hold grudges against the english, and have a pretty blinkered and narrow minded view of the world. thats not directed at any one here, its just in general.

I think that's island people anywhere in the world, the smaller the island the more that's the case - literally and metaphoricaly an insular mentality.

Unstable

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
salaries are rubbish

Bullseye. I have 3yrs experience now in the IT Field + Mcse's and the like, and I got offered a job last week paying... get this €20,000. This after being in talks with the company for the last few weeks. If I knew from the start how much they were offering I wouldn’t of wasted my time and effort meeting up after hours trying to impress the f*cker. And what pissed me off the most was the fact that in one of the meetings I had, they had this f*cking hippy with 3 months experience giving me advice about being on a site.... Jesus Christ, they really know how to insult someone

sorry I went a bit off track there, just needed to get something’s off my chest

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Unstable
Bullseye. I have 3yrs experience now in the IT Field + Mcse's and the like, and I got offered a job last week paying... get this €20,000. This after being in talks with the company for the last few weeks. If I knew from the start how much they were offering I wouldn’t of wasted my time and effort meeting up after hours trying to impress the f*cker. And what pissed me off the most was the fact that in one of the meetings I had, they had this f*cking hippy with 3 months experience giving me advice about being on a site.... Jesus Christ, they really know how to insult someone

sorry I went a bit off track there, just needed to get something’s off my chest

I assume this was in Ireland. I had a couple of variations of that kinda messing happen to me last year. Its one think that would make me leave IT. A lot of IT companies really just muck people about. Then people wonder why people are leaving IT and fewer graduates are going into it.

seamus

Originally posted by zedsDeadBaby
Funny i should see this thread because i am just finishing up a vb contract in London next week and was looking up jobs in Ireland.
Are they taking the piss with the money at home in Ireland?

Yep. Pretty much. As the lads here have said, companies seem to be trying to cash in now on the downturn, and get people who are really good for very little cash. Certainly 6 months or a year ago, a lot of people with lots of experience and/or certifications were taking jobs paying €18k a year because there was nothing else. The job market is picking up, and I see a lot more people a lot happier to be picky about jobs, and laughing at ones looking for 3 years experience and a degree and offering anything less than €25k. That kind of money may be ok as a strating point in Sligo or Donegal, but in Dublin and other bigger cities, it's a joke.
I was very lucky to get my current (new) job. It doesn't require a lot of experience or skills, but the money is good, the prospects are good, and the company is willing to pay for any IT certification I want, after I get MCPs (Which they will pay for). That the work isn't very challenging isn't that much of an issue. The very fact that the company is interested in keeping me more than makes up for it.

IT seems to be an area that a lot of Irish companies look at as the first place to start cutting costs.

pork99

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I assume this was in Ireland. I had a couple of variations of that kinda messing happen to me last year. Its one think that would make me leave IT. A lot of IT companies really just muck people about. Then people wonder why people are leaving IT and fewer graduates are going into it.

Also because Indians are cheaper?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by pork99
Also because Indians are cheaper?

How is that relevent to jobs and interviews in Ireland?

damnyanks

Erm HELLO!!?!

Fairly obvious Ricardo....geez

If your a cowboy you will be able to stop them pillaging the kitchen:rolleyes:

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by damnyanks
Erm HELLO!!?!

Fairly obvious Ricardo....geez

If your a cowboy you will be able to stop them pillaging the kitchen:rolleyes:

Since the comment was about an interview in Ireland, if someone is advertising and interviewing people for a job in Ireland, they've obviously NOT outsourcing it no? Unless you are suggesting that they are going to pay the same wages in Ireland as someone in India?

jank

how easy would it be for a graduate to get a job in london at the mo
something on the lines of networking support etc

secret_squirrel

Im not sure you could afford to live in london on a graduate tech support salary.....

shoegirl

Nobodies mentioned that taxes in the UK are a good bit higher than in Ireland.

Also be very cautious - tech support is extremely different in the UK. In Ireland most tech support people start out on the phones in Compaq/IBM/Serox/Apple/Gateway/Dell or whoever. However thats not the case in London, where most people get into tech through other roles. Time spent serving your time on the phones may not be recognised in the UK. I can tell you that for a fact. Project Manager skills, are however, hugely in demand and you'll get good contracts quickly if thats your line.

I'd recommend ElanIT - I worked for Reed and my colleagues doing the same job on Elan contracts earned exactly TWICE what I did. Try to avoid a lot of the small bit agencies - they are much less regulated and more adept at scamming than in Ireland.

I came back to Ireland after 8 months, I was virtually bankrupt as I ended up on the dole for 3 months at one stage (oh and the rate for unemployment benefit about 50% of the Irish rate), and at one very disturbing stage nearly ended up homeless. Accomodation is extremely expensive, even by Dublin standards, and I found out that sick pay just didn't exist in a lot of companies (in fact all the companies I worked for). In the end I was earning about 15% more than I earned in Dublin but after tax that was actually at a loss of about 5 euro per month! Also public transport is like a dream come true compared to commuting in Ireland, but its also about twice as expensive.

There are other perks though. You will be able to wave bye bye to sky extortionate doctors fees (free GP treatment - and very high quality too - on the NHS), very cheap dentists fees and prescriptions are at a very reasonable flat rate (I'm asthmatic and Irish prescription charges even with a health board card work out at about 6x the UK rate). The better employers also will get you BUPA or PPP which (and don'f fooled by the Irish equivalent) gives you genuinely private healthcare (which is good).

I would agree with toeing the line. Employers are much more tight about time keeping and work standards than in Ireland. (I've worked for several anal multinationals here and none of them came near what I saw in the UK). The public sector are very badly payed compared to here also (so don't touch!) Things like car insurance are realistic, unlike Ireland, where you'll be fleeced. Same goes for bank charges - basic accounts are basically free unless you want a premium account.

However don't even consider going unless you've accomodation for at least three months and if possible, a job! Another thing to do is make sure you've a current passport or full drivers licence - the UK are much more cautious on identity, and you'll need one to get a national insurance number. (PS the easiest way to get one is to sign on immediately upon arriving in the UK - employers can be quite slow to sort out NI numbers).

DUX

Originally posted by shoegirl
Nobodies mentioned that taxes in the UK are a good bit higher than in Ireland.

Also be very cautious - tech support is extremely different in the UK. In Ireland most tech support people start out on the phones in Compaq/IBM/Serox/Apple/Gateway/Dell or whoever. However thats not the case in London, where most people get into tech through other roles. Time spent serving your time on the phones may not be recognised in the UK. I can tell you that for a fact. Project Manager skills, are however, hugely in demand and you'll get good contracts quickly if thats your line.

I'd recommend ElanIT - I worked for Reed and my colleagues doing the same job on Elan contracts earned exactly TWICE what I did. Try to avoid a lot of the small bit agencies - they are much less regulated and more adept at scamming than in Ireland.

I came back to Ireland after 8 months, I was virtually bankrupt as I ended up on the dole for 3 months at one stage (oh and the rate for unemployment benefit about 50% of the Irish rate), and at one very disturbing stage nearly ended up homeless. Accomodation is extremely expensive, even by Dublin standards, and I found out that sick pay just didn't exist in a lot of companies (in fact all the companies I worked for). In the end I was earning about 15% more than I earned in Dublin but after tax that was actually at a loss of about 5 euro per month! Also public transport is like a dream come true compared to commuting in Ireland, but its also about twice as expensive.

There are other perks though. You will be able to wave bye bye to sky extortionate doctors fees (free GP treatment - and very high quality too - on the NHS), very cheap dentists fees and prescriptions are at a very reasonable flat rate (I'm asthmatic and Irish prescription charges even with a health board card work out at about 6x the UK rate). The better employers also will get you BUPA or PPP which (and don'f fooled by the Irish equivalent) gives you genuinely private healthcare (which is good).

I would agree with toeing the line. Employers are much more tight about time keeping and work standards than in Ireland. (I've worked for several anal multinationals here and none of them came near what I saw in the UK). The public sector are very badly payed compared to here also (so don't touch!) Things like car insurance are realistic, unlike Ireland, where you'll be fleeced. Same goes for bank charges - basic accounts are basically free unless you want a premium account.

However don't even consider going unless you've accomodation for at least three months and if possible, a job! Another thing to do is make sure you've a current passport or full drivers licence - the UK are much more cautious on identity, and you'll need one to get a national insurance number. (PS the easiest way to get one is to sign on immediately upon arriving in the UK - employers can be quite slow to sort out NI numbers).

Thank you very much for your detailed report.

IronMan

I was offered a job with Yahoo in London, initially for 6 months when I finish my degree. Considering the job market in Ireland it seems like a sensible decision. However is moving to London easy? Has anyone here, just upped sticks on their own and went to a different country (albeit England)? I travelled there over Christmas and it seemed like a wonderful spot, but the thought of going there, and not knowing anyone, makes me slightly anxious.

shoegirl

Originally posted by seamus
Yep. Pretty much. As the lads here have said, companies seem to be trying to cash in now on the downturn, and get people who are really good for very little cash. Certainly 6 months or a year ago, a lot of people with lots of experience and/or certifications were taking jobs paying €18k a year because there was nothing else. The job market is picking up, and I see a lot more people a lot happier to be picky about jobs, and laughing at ones looking for 3 years experience and a degree and offering anything less than €25k. That kind of money may be ok as a strating point in Sligo or Donegal, but in Dublin and other bigger cities, it's a joke.
I was very lucky to get my current (new) job. It doesn't require a lot of experience or skills, but the money is good, the prospects are good, and the company is willing to pay for any IT certification I want, after I get MCPs (Which they will pay for). That the work isn't very challenging isn't that much of an issue. The very fact that the company is interested in keeping me more than makes up for it.

IT seems to be an area that a lot of Irish companies look at as the first place to start cutting costs.

I can't help agreeing here, but its a European rather than an Irish phenomenon, and you have to remember that much of the tech skills shortage here was really a people shortage. You can teach a reasonably intelligent person to do many administrative IT roles in a matter of weeks or months. Much of the problem is that Ireland was sold for so long on the principle of yellow pack, low wage workers, and now companies are getting a shock now that Ireland is closer to EU averages. Oh and contrary to the propaganda being peddled by IBEC etc, Ireland median and average wage levels are still about 20% below EU averages.

BuffyBot

I was offered a job with Yahoo in London, initially for 6 months when I finish my degree. Considering the job market in Ireland it seems like a sensible decision. However is moving to London easy? Has anyone here, just upped sticks on their own and went to a different country (albeit England)? I travelled there over Christmas and it seemed like a wonderful spot, but the thought of going there, and not knowing anyone, makes me slightly anxious.

See the sticky on this forum. Lots of useful info there if you are thinking of moving to the UK

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by shoegirl
Nobodies mentioned that taxes in the UK are a good bit higher than in Ireland.

Im not sure what you base this on. In my experience taxes are slightly cheaper in the uk - especially as the higher income tax rate is lower in the uk and you hit it later...
generally cost of living is too. For example supermarkets are much cheaper (especially asda!), cars (no vrt), insurance etc.

for example

Vat 17.5% vs 21%

Income tax bands (single person, ignoring allowances)
UK
10% first £1960
22% from £1960 to £30,500
40% £30,500 on

Ireland
20% up to €28000
42% onwards

UK has fairly mean local taxation (house owner pays) and water rates though.

Now its pretty difficult to make direct comparisons in terms of cash because of exchange rates and differences in cost of living, but when I moved here from the UK I distinctly remember my salary being higher (numerically speaking) for the same mumerical amount of takehome pay. That pay also went further in the uk mostly due to things like shopping and cars being (much) cheaper


figures taken from inland rev here and revenue commisioners here (sorry actual page link wont paste, did a search on 2004 budget for both)