Trying to find a new martial art

RossFixxxed

Hey folks I've studied Ninjutsu for a year and dipped my feet into a little Krav Maga (which I loved but can't afford)

I'm looking for a martial art/martial arts class in Dublin that meets a few criteria:

1. Is free of trying to emulate Japanese/Chinese/etc culture, ie no bowing, incantations etc. (I'm not trying to be rude, or start a debate on this, it's just not my personal thing).

2. Is as free of fancy foot work as possible (a lot of surgery)

3. Is as unarmed as possible. Staffs and swords don't interest me and really put me off Ninjutsu.

4. Isn't shotokan or TKD. They're just not my thing again.


Fussy eh?

I was thinking of Aikido but want to avoid the constant religious/spiritual thing that people often teach here (often with no understanding of it either).

Better get back to work, thanks in advance to everyone!

Ross

RossFixxxed

Is there any martial art tai chi chuan classes about? The martial one rather than just the slow breathing one. I've been interested in this for a while but all the classes i can find (ucd included) never delve into the applications.

Thanks again.

Ross

xx

One word: Judo.

Repli

Give taekwondo another shot - maybe a different style to what u did..
it seems to meet all your criteria there (apart from #4)

Musashi

Check out all you can on WWII Combatives, Defendu,PUC and the work by Geoff Thompson, Carl Cestari et al. Probably no classes available but a worthwhile and viable area of self education.

RossFixxxed

Thanks all. Judo would be interesting but not enough striking for me. It also seems very reliant on brute strength, NOT my best idea. I gotta join a Gym soon.

TKD just ain't my thing, and would not be a good idea with my feet. The Krav would be ideal but 1,440 for a year is a little much for me! (eek!)

Maybe some form of Karatae wold be a good idea, just not Shotokan. Or a non-religious Aikido class. Or a decent striking Tai Chi Chuan class.

Dyr

umm theres no actual religion in most aikido classes. Various levels of "spiritual" training from the usual budo philosophy to all out wakka eco-friendly tree hugging. Also if you had a problem with the whole cultural ethos and weapons training in ninjutsu then aikido probably isnt the best idea

if you liked krav maga you migh tlike something thats reality based, for want of a better term.

blondie83

You should try Kenpo karate, its a sort of westernised version of old Chinese kempo. It has a lot of strikes in it, and you don't do any work with staffs or anything like that - although you do learn to defend yourself from someone trying to hit you with a glass bottle or something like that. There is bowing, but it's more out of respect, then out of trying to emulate Asian culture. A bit of foot work is involved, but it's on a simpler level than that required in ninjitsu. There is a good club on Leeson Street that does it, used to train there. Let me know if you need any more info!:ninja:

RossFixxxed

Kempo does seem to be the most likely. I've a friend who did it for about 5 years but left out dislike of his teacher more than the art itself. Obviously the teacher can often be more important than the art at times.

So the real options now are:

Kepmo: Striking, self defense and no weapons use.
Tai Chi Chuan: Tends to be taught like yoga, but a good class woule be awesome.
Shaolin Kung Fu: apparently there's almost wepon free versions of this. but i'd say there's a lot of chancer teachers in it.

My only concern with the Kempo thing is that it would be taught as moving from one pose to another rather than as a fighting style. I'll have to shop around. Will look up the one on leeson street and see what it's about.

Thanks everyone! :ninja: Like a ninja.

RossFixxxed

Just watched some clips:

Kenpo clips

Looks like my kind of thing. I especially like the fact that they do the stuff in the chair and the knife fight that has the counters is good too. I'm quite quite interested now.

When and why did you stop blondie?

Ross

blondie83

I stopped about 4 years ago because of the leaving cert and all that. Also if I'd wanted to keep going I'd have had to start sparring and I was afraid I'd get injured doing that. It was a good martial art though, I really enjoyed it. I'd have done it in UCD if they had a club, but they don't. Doing ninjitsu now though which is pretty good too I think, but in a different way. Kenpo is about reacting to a set pattern of different attacks, whereas ninjitsu seems to be more about instantaneously reacting to any sort of attack. It's interesting really, and I'm glad to be doing it

colincarnate

Originally posted by blondie83
Kenpo is about reacting to a set pattern of different attacks

Keep your opinion to yourself
-Repli

vasch_ro

The UCD Tai Chi club is a practical Tai Chi club its the real deal full contact fighting all the way but they do internal training as well

if you want to totally get away from emulation of chinese/ japanese arts and culture
perhaps you should try out Vale Tudo (anything goes) training with the infamous John Kavanagh its very practical to say the least they train stand up, clinch and ground
hes very welcoming and a proven teacher try www.irishbjj.com

or you could try www.fianna.5u.com

Theres a Karate Club in Johnstown Cabinteely but they are very progressive the instructor also trains in bushido kick boxing its quite good

blondie83

quote:

---

Originally posted by blondie83
Kenpo is about reacting to a set pattern of different attacks

---

Originally posted by colincarnate
Keep your opinion to yourself
-Repli

Now I'm intrigued. What did he say Repli? If he has a problem with something I said then I'd like to hear it. But if it was just a pointless insult then I really wouldn't be bothered

geoffer

Originally posted by RossFixxxed
2. Is as free of fancy foot work as possible (a lot of surgery)

Go to a good sports physio and ask their opinion. When it comes to your health I wouldn't recommend trusting the opinions of strangers on the net.

Watch out for the following:

(1) training barefoot on concrete. Bad for the joints.
(2) kicking air. Bad for the joints, timing, power and balance.
(3) depending on your injury, leg locks. Talk to whoever's taking the class first.

Cake Fiend

Boxing??

geoffer

Originally posted by Sico
Boxing??

Thought that too - then I reminded myself how much the average boxer runs :P
Depends on the injury I suppose

RossFixxxed

Boxing is out tbh.

It narrows down to: BJJ, the Fianna one linked above, Kenpo, practical Tai Chi in UCD.

I must pop out to the Tai Chi and have a look see at what they do. Half the people seem to think it's great. The other half think it's basically yoga.

Thanks for all the help everyone, there's been some REALLY interesting links and advice here.

Ross

Gyck

You could check out the Kung Fu classes in Newpark: the SCMAA classes.
We practise long fist and white crane and have recently started Yang style Tai Chi, which I find complements the harder styles of the arts.

Our Tai Chi focuses on the marital aspects (we're a Kung Fu club afterall) but for me it helps to balance the hard work of our long fist/white crane traning. Drop into Newpark in Blackrock on a tuesday after 7.00pm.

Souless

you could do Judo as it rocks heh in it you do have to bow and things though isnt majorly strict. You could do Modern Kenpo its is kenpo reformed by an american(Ed Parker) its more street smart i love it and it isnt heavily disaplined , there are a few weapons used in it though mind you(but in later belts isnt a huge part of training).

Colm_OReilly

if you want to totally get away from emulation of chinese/ japanese arts and culture
perhaps you should try out Vale Tudo (anything goes) training with the infamous John Kavanagh its very practical to say the least they train stand up, clinch and ground
hes very welcoming and a proven teacher try www.irishbjj.com

or you could try www.fianna.5u.com

I'd definitely recommend either of these clubs. JK runs a very good intro to MMA class on Thursday nights 8-9.

Also, Pearse at Fianna Fight School runs an excellent class. And if you're looking to get fit, Pearse is da man when it comes to Cardio and Conditioning.

If you're out Tallaght direction you're always welcome to try my club.

As far as Judo try to look for a light weight coach, in my experience these will be the more technical fighters/trainers since they can't muscle you about like a big man can.

dlofnep

If you want to study an art that is actually proven to be effective regardless of your size or weight, study BJJ (brazilian jiu jitsu). For stand up defense, I'd study muay thai and/or boxing.


Nod @ the above.

projectmayhem

in america, unsurprisingly, gun-kata is being taken on in a big way (because japanese people don't like it). it was featured in the film "equilibrium" and "teaches that the gun is just an extention of your arm"...

of course you need guns and a death wish to do it

pan

You could try Mugendo or bushido
Both modern styles of kickboxing and fairly informal
The level of training you do can be up to you.

Best to sort out injuries if possible, it would help for any sport

paddyc

www.bridgestonemuaythai.com

funky penguin

Invent your own one!!!!!!:)

Naos

Originally posted by RossFixxxed
Thanks all. Judo would be interesting but not enough striking for me.

Jiu-Jitsu is similar to Judo but emphasies more on strikes, not a lot of fancy foot work required, there is bowing out of respect.

ps. The bowing out of respect is also a way to get your head set in a mode for rules of conduct while in the dojo..

Damo W

Originally posted by RossFixxxed
Thanks all. Judo would be interesting but not enough striking for me. It also seems very reliant on brute strength, NOT my best idea. I gotta join a Gym soon.

TKD just ain't my thing, and would not be a good idea with my feet. The Krav would be ideal but 1,440 for a year is a little much for me! (eek!)

Maybe some form of Karatae wold be a good idea, just not Shotokan. Or a non-religious Aikido class. Or a decent striking Tai Chi Chuan class.

Hi RossFixxxed,

I'm a little late on this thread but as a Shotokan Instructor I'm just wondering why not shotokan.

I'm not trying to start a debate on whats good and whats not, just interested from an instructors point of view what turns people off shotokan and how I as an instructor can improve.

Please be honest, you can mail me privately if you wish.

Thanks

Damien

Cake Fiend

There are a few Kyokushin Karate clubs around the north side, might be worth checking out. Kyokushin is karate for Hard Bastards (TM), much more like kick-boxing than traditional karate, but they tend to have a bee in their bonnet about the whole 'osu' thing. But all clubs are different, maybe the guys over here are a bit more relaxed. Definitely a style to check out if you're interested in the action side of things.

Judo was originally a 'safe' version of Jujutsu (although it might have evolved since Kano's days, I'm no expert here) - it was created so people could practice certain jujutsu techniques without crippling each other! Jujutsu would be well worth a look IMO.

To Damo, my 2c would be that most people tend to think of Shotokan as a much less action-oriented style than the likes of kempo, kyokushin, etc. It's a bit technical for some - I'd say a lot of people want to get into the sparring stuff quickly and have a bit of fun. Plus I gather shotokan has a rep of being more traditional and full of bowing-osu-perfect-character bullcrap (obviously this depends on the club more than the style). Ah well, their loss.

Damo W

Originally posted by Sico
To Damo, my 2c would be that most people tend to think of Shotokan as a much less action-oriented style than the likes of kempo, kyokushin, etc. It's a bit technical for some - I'd say a lot of people want to get into the sparring stuff quickly and have a bit of fun. Plus I gather shotokan has a rep of being more traditional and full of bowing-osu-perfect-character bullcrap (obviously this depends on the club more than the style). Ah well, their loss.

Hi Sico,

Thanks for your reply and yes it can be quiet technical. Other points accepted.

Cheers.

Damien

RossFixxxed

Damo W I sent you a mail, can't seem to PM you (?).

Am thinking maybe JuJutsu. Still trying to avoid classes that have move names that include: Falcons of Force, Leap of Death etc... And any class that thinks it's in Japan makes me cringe a little.

I still think it'd be like 100 japanese students studying an irish martial arts class sayin: "Bleedin rapih" when a move is done. Or I'LL BLEEDIN BURST YA for Kiai, or Cheerz bud with a dig on the arm instead of a bow.

Just my 2c.

Ross

[edit] also I feel there's a difference between 'technical' and 'wooden'. A lot of classes seem to confuse the 2.

Damo W

Originally posted by RossFixxxed
Damo W I sent you a mail, can't seem to PM you (?).

Hi RossFixxxed,

Thanks for the post I haven't engaged my PM facility find it hard to check everything :-)

Am thinking maybe JuJutsu. Still trying to avoid classes that have move names that include: Falcons of Force, Leap of Death etc... And any class that thinks it's in Japan makes me cringe a little.

I still think it'd be like 100 japanese students studying an irish martial arts class sayin: "Bleedin rapih" when a move is done. Or I'LL BLEEDIN BURST YA for Kiai, or Cheerz bud with a dig on the arm instead of a bow.

Just my 2c.

Ross

[edit] also I feel there's a difference between 'technical' and 'wooden'. A lot of classes seem to confuse the 2.

Can't argue with you there, personal preference, sometimes its a package deal, Japanese tradition - japanese structure. The problem with it; is it develops some people into believing you get some thing better from a oriental instructor.

There are loads of occidental teachers with excellent skills.

But at the end of the day to each his own:)

Yes there is a massive difference between wooden and technical and the robot like clones that one sees... e.g. must do it how the 'master does' but the only reason he does it so slow is that he's 94....let the 20 something move like a 20something:)

More and more these days one sees a difference between clubs and associations under the Shotokan banner, stances, emphasis, applications etc. if one has a general interest its worth making the contrast/comparison.

Rant over:D

Cheers

Damien

Cake Fiend

Stuff like that depends more on the instructor than the art IMO - my current Shotokan instructor, for e.g., is refreshingly unconventional. We wear dogis, kiai and use Japanese names for techniques, but I get the impression that's more so we don't stand out too much at seminars than anything else! You'll never hear the Dojo Kun in our dojo, nor will you get crap about not understanding 'the true way of karate-do'. The usual Japanophile stuff pisses me off, and I'm glad to have little of it to put up with alongside top-quality training of a very interesting (IMO) art.

Then again, there are probably twice as many instructors out there who would look at you funny if you didn't turn around three times and clap your hands in a traditional 14th-century Japanese manner before tying your belt :rolleyes:

Colm_OReilly

Then again, there are probably twice as many instructors out there who would look at you funny if you didn't turn around three times and clap your hands in a traditional 14th-century Japanese manner before tying your belt

Are you serious about tha? :eek:

Cake Fiend

Might as well be - there are plenty of nutjobs in 'traditional' martial arts (traditional my hole - most of them have never even been to the country of origin). It's incredible the amount of people I've met who won't let their belt touch the floor, or don't like people touching their dogi, or won't straighten their belt or dogi without turning around, or bark an 'osu' at every opportunity, or.... the list goes on and on. Luckily, there are a few people out there who just want to do karate/TKD/whatever without all the extra bullshido!

aoa321

I'm late in on this thread but I find all the comments very interesting and refreshing - I stopped Tae Kwon Do training because of all the eastern philosophy/meditation/spirituality CRAP that the instructor used to come out with.

I stopped for a few months but missed the training so much I decided to go back and put up with his pseudo-Zen muck. I endured the sneers and snide remarks before my first class but when the instructor started going on about his indominatable spirit again I nearly ran out the door and never went back - I still meet the lads I trained with around town and none of them can ever understand why I left - I can't break it to them that I think thier ultimate hero is basically a moron who thinks that because he can name a kick in Korean it qualifies him as a philosopher !!

To any interested instructors out there all that nonsense puts a lot of people off training in the martial arts !!!

RossFixxxed

aoa321 LMAO well said. I think even if you really enjoy the cultural aspect, and learning about it that some of these guys just take it waaaay to far.

My ninjutsu class was grand, a bit of strange clapping, and a bit of japanese, but that's ok.

Oh err better get back to work, back soon!
R

Cake Fiend

Bear in mind that these are the bad cases. There are plenty of martial arts instructors out there who are just as put off by this kind of pseudo-culturalism as you or I. Then again, there are plenty of oddball students who are attracted to martial arts by the whole zen-kung-fu mystique crap! :ninja:

Damo W

Hi Guys,

One of the things I think were forgetting is that most of the Karate avail. is Karate-Do not Karate-Jutsu...therefore the rituals (Japanese trad.) and the phil. (Do) is inherent in the practice.

Lots of people are looking for Karate-Jutsu but get Karate-Do, while instructors never explain the difference.

But thats the old argument Do v's Jutsu.

Calling Shotokan etc. traditional karate is another (slight) error (in my opinion); when was it agreed to use the term Karate?

When did Shotokan become standardised?

What does it take for something to become traditional?

Comments welcome.

Damien

Dub13

RossFixxxed,
What part of the city are you in....?

RossFixxxed

Templeogue, but I drive so there's no problem heading out wherever!

Dub13

There is a very good Kenpo school in Raheny they,the instructor was in the first Kenpo school open in Ireland in fact it was the first in Europe.They used to have to send tapes over to the US (ed Parker I think) to get graded.

The instructor there also teaches in girls schools,he teaches them for a few hours a week.The stuff he does in the schools is great its just how do drop someone on the street and run (ideal for girls schools)

Bri

Tis a bit far out but I used to go to a thriving Kenpo club out in Celbridge, Co. Kildare - the owner had photos of himself and Mr. Parker all over the place. Nice and informal -> bit too busy though. Only gave up cos of school.

They'd be happy to talk to you if you rang them I'd guess.

:ninja: :ninja:

vasch_ro

damo to ans ur question , shotokan became standardised in the early 1920's in and around then, it was introduced to mainland japan at this time
from the island of okinawa (not sure of spelling )

the name shotokan comes from the translation house of shoto, it has nothing to do with Karate per say
just Gichin Funakoshi who is widely credited with having brought Karate to japan called his particular style ( he had a connection with the house of shoto just what escapes me now)

Judo was popular at the time and the dan system of grading was brought into shotokan from judo to make it more japanese , I guess this was the start of japanese standardisation
i may not be exactly right but thats the jist

Karate jutsu died out to an extent with the coming of modernity , the influence of zen brought to bear on the martial arts and karate do , became the way
its aim is not combat but rather enlightment , perfection etc thus Kata become moving zen ,

generally traditional would refer to something that can trace its roots back down the line say to the country of origin

for example vasch_ro do has is not traditional as I only founded it yesterday on one of the other threads
to emphasise a point and it bears no resemblance to any classical martial art as found in the orient or occident

check out Patrick Mc Carthys Bubishi the Bible of Karate for much better explainations then I can provide at this time .