Discussion of RTÉ future on Satellite

ShaneOC

There have been some interesting comments in the Bullfighting thread about the whole RTÉ not being FTV scenario.

As it has nothing to do with bullfighting I thiught I'd start off a new one so we can have a reasoned (:D :rolleyes: ) discussion on what may or may not happen in the future.

As someone with Sky+ and a FTV box I must say that I very rarely watch anything on BBC3 or BBC4. It's not that there are not good programmes on, it's just that I use the Sky+ EPG and as they are not there they tend to be overlooked. Even when UTV was available in the other channels menu, I did not watch it that regularly for exactly the same reason. I do use the FTV box the odd time for ITV1 and Channel 4 but if I were to calculate the amount of time I spend watching them I would expect that it would be only 1 or 2% (maybe less).

This has got me to thinking - if RTÉ were to go FTA and simply pay for placement on the Irish EPG then how many people in the UK would regularly watch it. OK, probably most of the "people" (and I use the term loosely) on digital spy would tune them into other channels but would they actually watch them on a regular basis. Again a few of the ex-pats would tune them in but how much would they watch them?

From what I have read in another thread it seems that you are going to be stuck with your default EPG from now on even if you remove the card and re-insert it upsidedown. This means that without an Irish sub card, the folks in the UK could not access the Irish channels on the EPG at all.

Off ye go now, and no ranting allowed .

watty

Can't I rant slightly?

ShaneOC

Oh go on so - but only slightly .

Greenman

I had a $ky sub and really only for RTE1 oh how I miss TARA:mad: :mad: :mad:
Grateful though to have the radio!!

Tony

I often hear gasps of surprise when I tell people that RTE is not free to licience payers. I suggest that people write to their local TD but I honestly dont think many do.

Having said that, I do have a vested interest because if RTE were to become free satellite sales would rocket.

Tony

In fairness they should be free, and pay sky a reasonable fee, to make the cards, it should be a follow on from their recent licence fee increases.

If they did, I'm sure a card tied to a valid licence would be in order

On the other side of the coin, where RTÉ currently pay nothing to be on the Sky EPG, there is the argument that Sky digital is a platform with features not available to those receiving it with analog aerials.

Considering these are extra features and RTE aren't paying for them, then the platform customer must pay, ie Sky subscribers.
Also of course there is the whole rights issues/problems.

A payment from RTÉ for the rights to show programmes to a potential four million viewers would be vastly less than for a potential 64 million plus, albeit only to the Sky UK customer base.

Widescreen

To make sales really rocket I think the Irish channels also need to broadcast in widescreen format.

Gonzo

rte could do with some red button interactivity as well as the widescreen.

ShaneOC

It should be remembered that one of the main reasons for RTÉ joining the Sky Digital platform was because there was a marked drop in viewing number for their programmes. People were not turning back to terrestrial to see what was on. If you are not on the EPG then you get ignored.

RTÉ should be very worried about ITV going FTA (as they most likely will) as this will also cause a major increase in sales of FTA receivers. If this is the case then people will most likely slip into ignoring RTÉ again.

ShaneOC

Originally posted by Gonzo
rte could do with some red button interactivity as well as the widescreen.

I don't think you will find anyone who would disagree about broadcasting in widescreen (unless it's someone from RTÉ).

Not too sure about the red button interactivity though. I am not a fan of the red buttons but I do use the interactive features from time to time. I think the BBC have got the balance pretty well sussed. There is not an "Interactive" icon displayed unless the specific programme is interactive.

Zaphod

Originally posted by Earthman
In fairness they should be free, and pay sky a reasonable fee, to make the cards, it should be a follow on from their recent licence fee increases.

But then you would have everyone who pays a licence fee subsidising those who could afford Sky boxes. And even if RTÉ did propose such a venture to Sky, would it be in Rupert's interests - surely having RTÉ 'free' as part of the Sky package encourages people to take out a Sky sub. Sky might agree to such a proposal, but then I reckon that they would charge a pretty steep fee. Look at the way they treated the BBC initially when they went FTA.

Perhaps a hydrid of RTÉ1, N2 and TG4 home produced programs (no copyright problems) could be used for a single FTA channel, and use the advertising revenue (eg from the UK expat market) to fund it.

At the end of the day, terrestrial digital would be the better way to go IMHO. A more 'universal' service.

BTW, wasn't there a spot allocated to the UK/Ireland in the Clarke belt way back that was supposed to be used for DTH stuff back in the BSB/Marcopolo days? Somewhere around 35W ?

carrolls

Like I said on the broadcasting forum, RTE's only viable digital option now is to encrypt using a non Sky CAM on Satellite.
With BBC FTA already and possibly ITV coming in September, people buying the CAM will have a good choice of FTA channels along with RTE/TV3 when the CAM is plugged in. No wading over dozens of Sky's encrypted channels to find the FTA ones. No subscription hastle with STB Hard drive recording
because its free anyway if you buy the correct box.
But the big thing about this method is RTE will become a public service broadcaster again.;)
They can do this If they go FTA, but they will lose a large chunk of their popular foreign output.

watty

My view would be similar to Carrolls

I think till now RTE has misunderstood satellite.

I wouldn't fuss much about the interactive. It is rearly good, as satellite can only do video loops and not have interactive as well as a DVD video (which are mostly not worth paying extra for extras, except maybe LOTR), as you have to wait for the loop to get to the start in real time. Same problem with Interactive text. It, just like ordinary teletext is a digital stream, you have to wait for the requested page to arrive (no matter if by BBCi menu or SkyText page number).

I watch TV and DVD amazingly to watch Drama, Documentaries, News, Films etc in a easy to follow manner decided by the orignal "editor". If I "really" need / want interactive, actually TV/Satellite/DVD can't cut it. You need DVD/CD ROM or Internet (Encyclopedias, Google, BBC/RTE news web sites, Games, Forums etc).

Play to the strengths of a technology:
Satellite:

* High Quality cheap distribution even to isolated communities
* Lower running cost than Terrestrial TV network
* Cheap and easy control of access (who views it) via cards (but not at Sky's pricing)
* Very cheap for Radio
* Easy to add regional opt outs (RTE has done brief almost unoticed regional programming).
* Cheap to distribute a best of / repeat / current Irish News/Sport for Europe, USA etc, a better version of Tara that would MAKE money, even after increased payments to actors, sports etc in the local production (no imports).

Why did RTE price Tara's rights costs so high?

Was it co-incidence that they pulled plug at same time as "secret" deal for Sky carriage?

Irish TV / Radio occupies almost all of one transponder. This should be leased direct from Astra, not via Sky. (Till DW TV etc added, it ONLY had Irish upliked).

RTE has own uplink facilities.


earlier

RTE bean pushers thought free encryption and carriage on Sky was a good deal. Sky have full rights to decide price and package in return. RTE regard Satellite as a upmarket cable TV system, so don't see the problem.

It may cost RTE directly less, but since we pay a TV licence and RTE is a Public service broadcaster and many areas have substandard reception, especialy of TG4, it is a bad deal for the Irish consumer.

Also Murdoch gives NOTHING free, so the bean counters at Sky no doubt feel they ought to be paying RTE.. As they do to BBC for "carriage" in Republic!

A great deal for Sky and a poor one for Irish Consumers.

RTE beleived that a FTV card scheme (the only alternative) was too expensive. At Sky's (highly inflated) prices it is. But using Viaccess, a non-Sky method:

1) Irish viewers would have been able to use same receiver for European Pay TV.

2) Same box would work with a BBC Prime sub (still directly sold to Ireland by BBC)

3) Very affordable to RTE

4) Would break Sky monopoly and Sky would certinally have responded by imeadiately enabling the CI slot at back for a Viaccess CAM and RTE FTV card (but I'd bet only if an Irish Sky sub card in the front slot).

Sky can enable the Digibox via satellite to work alternate CAM anytime they want. It is mainly so that if Videoguard is completely compromised the boxes arn't scrap, and also if EU ever insists exiting setup is too monopolistic, they again don't suffer cost of new boxes, but simply enable the rear connector for a CAM.

RTE does not have option of BBC (FTA) as adding Ireland to UK coverage is no "rights cost" issue (often included and BBC / ITV in 80% homes anyway), but adding RTE to UK where largely it is not would x10 the "rights" costs for RTE. RTE and ITV are already and always have been on the 2D satellite BBC moved to.

Lennoxschips

It's very frustrating for me knowing that RTE television signals are hitting my satellite dish at this very moment, but that I can't watch them due to them being encrypted on $ky, who I am reluctant to pay money to.

Tony

Why dont they go the BBc route and simply claim "overspill" Comreg could theoretically force Sky to give EPG placement if Ireland gets its way with Eu with regard to regulation of foreign broadcats. Since RTE originates here anyway they may not even need EU approval to do this.

Tony

Originally posted by Earthman
In fairness they should be free, and pay sky a reasonable fee, to make the cards, it should be a follow on from their recent licence fee increases.

If they did, I'm sure a card tied to a valid licence would be in order

On the other side of the coin, where RTÉ currently pay nothing to be on the Sky EPG, there is the argument that Sky digital is a platform with features not available to those receiving it with analog aerials.

Considering these are extra features and RTE aren't paying for them, then the platform customer must pay, ie Sky subscribers.
Also of course there is the whole rights issues/problems.

A payment from RTÉ for the rights to show programmes to a potential four million viewers would be vastly less than for a potential 64 million plus, albeit only to the Sky UK customer base.

Tony

Originally posted by watty



Why did RTE price Tara's rights costs so high?

Was it co-incidence that they pulled plug at same time as "secret" deal for Sky carriage?

No I believe it was deliberate, RTE claimed financial reasons but these same reasons had been evident for a very long time, expediency ruled the day.

zedsDeadBaby

Originally posted by Widescreen
To make sales really rocket I think the Irish channels also need to broadcast in widescreen format.

nonononononono
Don't give them any excuse to raise the liscence fee again for a channel i could do without if i got away with the fee.

watty

No, they don't need EU approval AT ALL to be clear, Tony.

The issue is purely "rights", mostly Hollywood/Sport.

Most of what the BBC gets would have Irish rights already (80% coverage even if Sky closed tomorrow).

But for RTE, the 2D footprint, even if we forget France/Benelux, and larger dishes in Poland, Spain, Germany etc, covers UK perfectly.

The rights would cost RTE 10times as much for the 20times number of people.

RTE can't go FTA, unless EU somehow stops the program sellers splitting EU land up into separate markets. Which hell would freeze first!

Originally posted by Zaphod
But then you would have everyone who pays a licence fee subsidising those who could afford Sky boxes.

Which is what the BBC were doing up untill they went fta.
Of course you would have the Sky users or fta satelite users to be more precise up in arms over double payment if they had to pay.
Oh they are already actually, the subscribers that is...

I don't really follow this economic argument as, the equipment is about the price of a decent video and tv combined or less if you go the ebay route or other second hand route.

Theres also the fact that the licence can be paid by monthly direct debit now, which is already distinguishing those who pay in full up front from those who go the budget route.
The former have paid more in advance to RTÉ than the latter and hence made a better contribution to the outfit.
Not an idea that I'd subscribe to , or that would worry me, but an idea all the same.

Zaphod

Originally posted by Earthman
Which is what the BBC were doing up untill they went fta.

Just because the BBC did it doesn't mean RTÉ should do it or could afford to without increasing the licence fee for all. Why the BBC ever got into bed with Sky in the first place is beyond me.

Of course you would have the Sky users or fta satelite users to be more precise up in arms over double payment if they had to pay.
Oh they are already actually, the subscribers that is...

Sky would argue that they get RTÉ 'free'. I don't recall the price of the Sky package before and after RTÉ joining being any different? At least for a few weeks

I don't really follow this economic argument as, the equipment is about the price of a decent video and tv combined or less if you go the ebay route or other second hand route.

It's simple really. You're saying that everyone should pay for the cost of RTÉ going FTV (the proceeds of which go to Sky) regardless of whether they already have a Sky box or not, or whether they can afford a Sky box or not, or whether they can install a dish (not an option for flats, renters etc), or even if they want a Sky box. Having a few receivers and DVB cards lying about the house, I have as much use for one of Sky's semi-crippled receivers as a eunuch has for a condom in a nunnery!

Neither do I think the cost is negligible, having experience of what your typical high street retailer charges for satellite equipment. A sizeable portion of the population wouldn't know eBay from a head of cabbage. And you can thow the cost of installation onto that. Plus the yearly additional fee on the licence. It's unlikely Sky will freeze the price for 20 years or so.

Perhaps if one could foresee free or hugely subsidised boxes from Sky. I doubt it somehow.

Plus it would be ceding a substantial amount of control of RTÉ over to Sky, who could pull the plug whenever it suited them. And of course Sky, via NDS, also control the Videoguard encryption system which is tied to digiboxes. No chance of third party CAMs appearing on the market in the near future.

watty

BBC used Sky originally because they felt they had no alternative. Old speeches show it never was going to be permenant. 2D did not exit till later.

RTE should only use Digbox FTV if Sky make CAM available, otherwise RTE FTV card should be viaccess2 which is cheap and CAM or embedded CAM cheap, and encryption cards etc cheap.

Originally posted by Zaphod

It's simple really. You're saying that everyone should pay for the cost of RTÉ going FTV (the proceeds of which go to Sky) regardless of whether they already have a Sky box or not, or whether they can afford a Sky box or not, or whether they can install a dish (not an option for flats, renters etc), or even if they want a Sky box. Having a few receivers and DVB cards lying about the house, I have as much use for one of Sky's semi-crippled receivers as a eunuch has for a condom in a nunnery!

But such is the nature of the tax, that is the tv licence.
Not everyone is getting the same value out of it.
Those that do not watch RTÉ at all certainly aren't.
It's like all taxes really, they are used to subsidise some people more than others.

watty

Since it is a Tax on having TV reception, in one sense *anyone* watching TV "benefits" by being allowed to watch.

Same like with Road Tax. Those that drive new N and M routes get direct value, those driving occasionally, or a lot on R roads (little spent on them) get no value from Road Tax.

You could abolish Road Tax and just Tax petrol /desiel, which would be fairer on those who have a bigger car for family but don't drive as much.

Similar thing could only be done on TV if Ireland had NO TFA TV and no analog. The TV licence while not the fairest is proven to be a better solution than none.

Compared with 4 to 6 times as much spent on Pay TV where you have very limited control of "package". ONe reason I don't have Sky Sub is to avviod all the channels I don't want. It seems bad value for the 4 to 6 channels in Family pack I would watch. Also Sky sub funds no Irish / local production (or extremely little if you count the Sky News Ireland which is FTA).

TV licence funds 3 TV channels and 4 Radio. Compared with UK licence income is small. Without it RTE would be like "five" or worse than "TV3" and interms of PSB less commercial material of special interest and local production there would be nearly nothing.

halkar

Paying license fee and having to pay Sky too to receive decent picture if pure rubbish. RTE should go FTA full stop, they should have no excuse and if they demand license fee, we have every right to demand decent service. Considering the amount that license fee increased recent years they can take out some of the cr@p and fund the costs of going FTA. If you look around the many of the sattelites you will see many state own stations accross Europe is FTA even from countries in Eastern Europe. Hit the EuroAsiaSAt at 42E you will get over 50 channels FTA and some 5 of them are state owned. Ok they are not in English but we class them as 3rd world country sometimes:D It is same for Romania, Poland, Bulgaria too, they all have state channels FTA in various sattelites.

Bottom line is we bend over to RTE too much and they get away with everything. I wouldn't surprise if they increase the license fee again soon even though inflation is dropping. Though I wouldn't mind payin extra 10 or 20 yoyos to have RTE FTA. Still saves me almost 300 yoyos a year when I get rid of SKY and the wife whom watches those Living and Halmark and $hite channels

sceptre

Originally posted by halkar
I wouldn't surprise if they increase the license fee again soon even though inflation is dropping.

Dropping inflation just means that prices are increasing less quickly. In other words, it means that things are less more expensive, not less expensive (that would be deflation)

Sin e an Fear

Hit the EuroAsiaSAt at 42E you will get over 50 channels FTA and some 5 of them are state owned. Ok they are not in English but

That's what the whole issue- if the programmes were in English instead of dubbed or with voiceovers as in Poland (yuck), then the rights holders would be kicking up a fuss. I know that some Middle Eastern broadcasters do show stuff in English, but it's pretty old and not as easily received as Astra and Eutelsat.

Perhaps a hydrid of RTÉ1, N2 and TG4 home produced programs (no copyright problems) could be used for a single FTA channel, and use the advertising revenue (eg from the UK expat market) to fund it.

You might as well just have a similar channel to Tara called something like RTÉ UK, funded by a separate subscription from Sky, like Zee TV and B4U do with their Asian channels. Having a new FTA channel wouldn't be financially viable for RTÉ.

TV licence funds 3 TV channels and 4 Radio. Compared with UK licence income is small. Without it RTE would be like "five" or worse than "TV3" and interms of PSB less commercial material of special interest and local production there would be nearly nothing.

It would probably end up like Television New Zealand (TVNZ ), which is publicly owned but not public service. There used to be a 'broadcasting fee', which was about 60 euros but the proceeds of that went on 'public service' programmes on any channel (including TV3's namesake, also part-owned by CanWest). A TV channel in Maori was launched on Sunday, but there are already doubts about its survival TG4 (aka 'Teilifis DeLorean') should count its blessings that it doesn't operate in such a rabidly free-market and philistine country.

Some bunch of nutters backed by the Tories are proposing that the BBC should go the same way in the UK- see here .

Ireland is lucky in getting overspill from another country- NZ is too far from Australia to have that. ABC in Australia is still commercial-free on TV and radio, even though it's vulnerable to government spending cuts- they gave up trying to collect licence fees in the outback thirty years ago.

watty

Good points Sin e an Fear.

And we DEFINATELY don't want to be like TV NZ.

rcunning03

Some bunch of nutters backed by the Tories are proposing that the BBC should go the same way in the UK- see here .

If that happens I'm binning my TV the BBC is the only rest we get from the constant pressure to remortgage our home and reality TV

Sin e an Fear

RTÉ might consider the following for the UK market, but again, it comes down to rights.

DR1 and DR2 from Denmark are available as a subscription service throughout the Nordic countries, including the Faroes and Greenland, which are autonomous regions of Denmark.

RUV in Iceland, in common with other Nordic broadcasters, shows foreign TV programmes in the original language (usualy English) with subtitles. Apparently RUV is available FTA on Astra 2D, and even if it is encrypted, it isn't part of one of the Nordic satellite packages.

If that happens I'm binning my TV the BBC is the only rest we get from the constant pressure to remortgage our home and reality TV

They already have that on BBC America every f***ing Tuesday.

Thatcher did look at subscription for the BBC in the 1980s. I wouldn't be against it per se, but I'd axe News 24 in favour of BBC World (which carries very little advertising) and BBC Prime in favour of versions of BBC1 and 2. (The original BBC TV Europe was a mix of the two channels.)

rcunning03

In Belgium they have bbc 1 & 2 southeast, which is great.

watty

RUV was only on 2D for the Elections.

Sin e an Fear

RUV was only on 2D for the Elections

I stand corrected. Anyway, my Icelandic ain't up to much, and the fact that they refuse to have any foreign loan words doesn't make it easier. The Irish word for television is teilifis , the Icelandic one is sjonvarp. Go figure.

In Belgium they have bbc 1 & 2 southeast, which is great.

And Holland too, because of overspill. But it's probably all news about Dover.:rolleyes: since they split London off from Newsroom Southeast
Asylum seekers mayoral elections, Norn Irn politics- the choice is yours now that they're all FTA.

When I watched Tara on Cable London (now Telewest) they used to show
Six One without showing the Angelus first. Jeez, if the DUP can hack people watching it on RTE1 in Northern Ireland, I don't think people in Britain would have complained.