Please help me specify a setup

P. Breathnach

Folks,

I hope that you don't mind me asking ignorant questions, but the more I try to research things, the more confused I get. It doesn't help that most of the professionals that I have consulted start and finish their thinking with Sky, or want to sell me what they have rather than what I might want.

I have an analogue FTA setup -- dish pointed at Astra, tuner, unused CAM. This gives me CNN, Eurosport, and about 25 German-language channels (and I don't speak German). Now I have decided to develop my channel-surfing, and this is what I think I want:

1. Suitable motorised dish: fifty miles north of Dublin, should I go for 80 cm. or 1m. to get reasonable signal strength on a good range of satellites? What about a motor?

2. A tuner and positioner: I imagine one box of electronics.

3. I want to be able to receive French stations, most of which is FTA, so PAL/SECAM incompatibility is an issue. Can that be solved in a tuner, or do I need a dual-standard television?

4. Upgrade compatibility:
(1) I might add a CAM later, but if somebody recommends a good-value tuner with CAM, I might go for it.
(2) Sky: I have no plan to subscribe, but it's hard to predict the future; the only way I see to plan for that possibility is a dual feed LNB.

5. Another upgrade I hope to go for is PVR, but I have questions about that:
(1) Can I copy from a PVR to VCR with a small amount of editing (things like cutting out ad-breaks?)
(2) Or, if I find enough money for a DVD writer, can I copy from PVR to that?

6. What about radio? I have terrible radio reception where I live. Is there an easy and cheap route to use a system for radio without committing the television resources (maybe using the about-to-be redundant analogue stuff)?

7. Finally, box compatibility: I would prefer not to have too much spaghetti, so if things could be daisy-chained with SCART leads, it might be neater; if the boxes look reasonably well together that, too, would be nice.

I will be grateful for general advice or specific product recommendations -- better than cheap and not-really-good-enough but reasonably affordable.

I'm thinking of buying the bits; I can find an installer.

Thanks for your interest.

Padraig

watty

Welcome to here.

Glad you found your way from alt.satellitetv.europe!

I'll post some info later. Hopefully some of the other knowledgeable regulars will too and not rely on my typing!

Mr.M

for a dish and motor you've got a lot of choices. a 1m anywhere in ireland will get you most of the best satellites(30w,1w,13e&19e) but it wont get you all(5e or the nordic beam of 1w). for these two satellites you'll probably need a 1.2m dish(you better check with your neighbours beforing putting that size of dish up).for a motor you can go for one of two types, either a diseqc1.2 motor which is light and easy to setup or you can get an actuator which is heavier, harder to setup but it's better for more exposed spots as it's a lot stronger than the diseqc.
as for receiver, again you've got lots of choices. the receiver of the moment is the dreambox7000. it's definitely not for the inexpereinced but if you're willing to learn you'll never need another receiver.it can internally decode channels without the need for a cam or a card or if you fancy buying a cam and card somewhere along the line it has space for two cams and two cards. but like i said it takes time to get use of it but if you look around some sat forums the people who have them say that it's the best receiver around.
anyway, this should get the ball rolling until Byte, Tony or Greenman come along

watty

If you look at www.satellite.ie you will see typical cost of 80/90cm dish compared with 1m Triax. The 1m makes channels only working in "perfect" conditions on an 80cm dish still work in drizzle.

Real improvement is about 1.4M, but then an ordinary motor won't do. The Moteck diseqc motor will do a 1m dish fine.

A FTA non-card receiver is a smidgion under 100 Euro. A similar quality that takes a CAM is significantly more. CAM arn't cheap. Neither is a viewing card (forget making your own cards, costs as much and very illegal in Ireland).

A Sky Digibox won't like a motor system, though I did try it on a dual LNB. Problem is that a Digibox really is never off and needs to be on 28.2E.

If you subscribe for a year (and not much other reason for Digibox), its 60cm ish dish, LNB and Digibox is yours to keep from day 1 and you typically may pay only for install. (one offer per person/household).

I did have 4 dishes but have cut back to two!

( Dish 1) Three LNBs:
19E at focus, Dual LNB for Digibox and other 28.2E at one side and 13E LNB at other side. I'm going to try adding 5E too.

A PC Satellite Card is "direct Satellite MPEG record to disk" with DVD burner. (PVR) This has a 4-Way PC controlled "Diseqc" switch to select any one of four satellites (ASTRa2/Eurobird inc BBC 28E, Astra1 19E and Hotbirds 13E, a separate dish LNB used to get Turksat42E). About 600 TV and 500 Radio on PC, The Satellite card hyas a true TV and HiFi out built in and IR remote. Though in a workshop at back of garden the IR handset in Living room selects TV/Radio/Record/Playback. Also timer recording.

(Dish2) One LNB and a Moteck motor drive.
This feeds the superb Palcom DSL4 FTA satellite receiver. It has a TV/Radio button and you can assign the radio / TV stations to a four digit number (Up to 4000 memories). I have video sender on it.

The Receiver of most video senders will drive walkman type headphones with a built in volume control (via RCA plug to 3.5mm socket stereo adaptor) or a hifi.


The Digibox simply has the 60+ free radio channels in the 100 to 999 range used for TV.

Niether box needs the TV on for radio, but the Palcom is a bit easier.


A cheap PC Satellite card is about 70 Euro which will record direct MPEG, but viewing is down to the HW/SW of your PC / Graphics (which may or may not do TV out). The expensive satellite cards near 200 Euro but have built in IR remote, DSP chip for HW MPEG decoding to vew live or playback with NO PC overhead, real TV/Hifi/Digital out built in etc. They can take a real CAM (but not for Sky viewing card).

The ONLY serious option for Sky Pay TV PVR is a Sky+ which costs an extra 15Euro per month to "rent" recording feature and will ONLY record Sky EPG channels.

A Humax or Technomate Satellite PVR can be used for FTA, or with CAM a NON-Sky Pay TV provider. No "rental" is needed. FTA recording is free, pay channels are normal subscription.

P. Breathnach

Thanks for the responses, Watty and Mr. M.

So where am I now?

The bit outside the house will probably be a 1m. dish (we get enough rain and drizzle) with the Diseqc motor. I'm trying to achieve a reasonable trade-off between price and performance. I presume that LNB performance is also an issue, and that some are better than others; so I should get a good LNB.

I'm going to rule out Sky for now: their package is too restricted, and I simply don't like being coerced.

So let's move indoors. Watty tells me that I can have a non-CAM tuner for about 100 euro; the Palcom DSL4 which he praises might be the thing, and it seems that it works with the Diseqc. I'm not particularly planning to subscribe to anything (or manufacture cards) so that might do. Any opinion about the Strong 6355 offered on www.satellite.ie, which seems to allow two televisions to be fed the one signal, so I could continue viewing when I go to bed?

It looks as if I could have my basics for between 300 and 450 euros plus what I pay the installer.

But where are the bells and whistles?

While I'm not planning to cheat on subscription services, I would consider bending the rules on FTV, and that might involve a CAM.

And the more I think about PVR, the more the idea appeals to me. But it looks expensive, in the high hundreds. I'm not going along the PC route which Watty describes mainly because computers and televisions represent different dimensions of my activities, and it would involve too many changes in the way we live in this house.

And so I come back to Mr. M., and the Dreambox 7000. I did a bit of googling, and found specifications: there are an awful lot of them, which looks impressive. Most of them I don't understand; that's why I'm here, hoping for suggestions from people who do understand such things. Apparently it is supplied without a hard disk fitted. Does this mean that if I buy a hard disk, it can give me PVR? Or should I buy one, forget about satellite dish and television, and spend my evenings figuring out how it works?

Thanks again for your input.

PB

Mr.M

for lnb you can get the .3bd invacom lnb. it's good value for money and it gives an extra bit of strength to most signals.
the dreambox is the taste of the day for the moment anyway. like you said you can connect a hard drive to it which you can use for multipel different things between updating the firmware of the box, recording films directly to your pc and then converting them to either cd or dvd and also it is pretty well future proof for whatever cam or card you want to use in it.
your best to find out more info is to have a look around at some satellite forums.i'm not sure if i can post them here so if you want i can PM you a few to get you started

P. Breathnach

Okay, that's the LNB sorted. While I'm still dealing with the outside-the-house bit, how long a cable run is reasonable? I have plenty of outside space, and would like to locate the dish where it does not interfere with views from the windows. I'm thinking of a location which would involve about 35 metres of cable.

Now, the tuner:
- Yes, I think I would like to know more about the Dreambox7000. It seems to have PVR capacity. Can it also deal with PAL/SECAM conversions? (Without my having to learn about Linux.)
- I would equally be interested in other good-spec tuners with PVR or PVR capacity. Or do PVR boxes exist, so that I can use a more basic and affordable receiver, and pass the output through such a box?

We're probably moving into done-to-death topics, boring for the experienced, but all new to me. Maybe it would be best if people could point me towards places to look things up rather than overload this forum.

Padraig

Zaphod

Originally posted by P. Breathnach
And the more I think about PVR, the more the idea appeals to me. But it looks expensive, in the high hundreds.
PB

There are a number of manufacturers of PVR receivers with either Common Interfaces or in-built CAMs at varying prices e.g.

Technomate:
www.satellitesuperstore.com/tech.htm
www.technomate.com

GBSat:
http://www.hisat.com/twp/index.asp


Topfield:
http://www.topfield.de/frame.html

seano

Here is a few more to look at

Topfield in English http://work.irkudos.co.kr/main_e.asp
Echostar http://195.108.191.103/b2c/us/default.asp
Aston http://www.aston-france.com/en/

Ronan|Raven

The Technomate 5500 DAPCI seems to come well recommended.

watty

Unless you are buying a legitimate Swiss, Nordic or Dutch "equvialent" of a UK FTV card, a CAM is useless. A UK FTV card only works in a Sky Digibox.

A 0.6dB MAXIMUM noise figure LNB may actually out perform any 0.3dB NF "typical" LNB. Don't spend a premium on LNB.

Actually here in Limerick I get a fair quantity of 5E channels on a 80/90cm dish. 1m is a good compromise.

I use a EUR 50 video sender (from Lidl, built in RF modulator and video out) to "remote" the Palcom box, it feeds back the remote controller too. I also have a EUR 100 video sender (Thomson, no RF modulator) which gives identical quanity and may even come from same Tiwanise factory!

If you want the Swiss/Nordic/Dutch FTV cards, then the Strong is good. I don't know where you get the CAM(s) or which ones are needed. You will need to make your own arragementment to legitimately obtain Dutch/Nordic FTV cards (once off charge plus annual fee). The Swiss card can be directly applied for abroad, to a non-Swiss address, if you are a Swiss National. I'm told by an Italian that has one, that they often don't ask to see your swiss passport.

P. Breathnach

To hell with CAMs, then: I'll settle for uncomplicated FTA. But I suppose the facility to add a CAM in the future is no bad thing, as the situation might change.

I'm now getting confused again about LNBs. I imagine that a lower dB rating means more sensitive. Do we have a sensitivity/selectivity trade-off to consider?

My brain (such as it is) is starting to hurt. I have been following the urls that people were kind enough to post, and my confusion level is rising fast. I don't know enough to interpret the specifications. Perhaps I should describe to you what I hope might happen:
1. I buy the bits (1m. dish, LNB, Diseqc motor, low-loss co-ax, and "XXX receiver").
2. Technician sets up outside stuff and brings leads into house.
3. Everything is connected to "XXX receiver".
4. We switch on, and ask "XXX receiver" to do its setup thing.
5. Some time later I find "XXX receiver" has located a number of satellites and tuned in a lot of stations, and committed all the information to memory.
6. It would be nice if I could then assign easy-to-remember IDs to those channels which I might watch more often (probably grouped by satellite for more efficient surfing).
7. I would like PVR in the system, for time-shifting, and perhaps sometimes for saving one programme while watching another. I would also like to be able to copy from PVR to long-term storage media, but that might come later.
8. I will probably add a video sender to the system.

I don't want to tie my system into my PC, but I have a a modest-spec laptop available which I could use for backing-up files from PVR.

I would rather buy stuff in Ireland so that if anything goes wrong it is easier to deal with the situation.

Now the challenge: is there anybody who is willing to tell me what "XXX receiver" is, where I might buy it, and roughly how much it might cost me. Might the Technomate8000 be what I am describing?

Thanks, everybody, for taking an interest.

Padraig

Ronan|Raven

The technomate 8000 from what I have seen on other forums is getting a fair bit of critiscism due to many bugs and Technomate not releaseing a fix for said problems.

seano

The Topfield 4000 will give you everythig you want.


I am sure if you get in touch with Mr Moore at satellite.ie he can get you any receiver that you want even if it is not on his website.

Mr.M

you could also have alook around for the GBSAT it's a good alround receiver which is diseqc 1.2 compatable and it has usals for easy setup.

check your pm for the official stockists of the receiver and click on GBSAT. you can then see the specs of the receiver

watty

LNBs (as does everything else) generate a certain amount of noise.

dB is a Logarithmic scale for comparing Ratio

1dB is very little
0.3dB is almost nothing
6dB = Twice
20dB = Ten times

The total NF of a system might be 2dB to 3dB. The difference to system between a 0.7dB and 0.3dB NOISE FIGURE (NOT THE GAIN!!!) is tiny.

A next size up dish may increase signal by 3dB or 6dB more

Clear sky to slight drizzel is approx 3dB

So the extra cost of a very low (0.3dB to 0.2dB) NF LNB compared to a 0.7dB or 0.6dB is negligable extra performance. Sometimes actually worse performance as the "quality" of an LNB is not just its NF (1dB to 0.2dB) but also Horizontal/Vertical polarization separation, Group delay/Phase response, response to weak signal on one frequency when another has a strong signal and "flatness" of response between 10.5GHz and 12.7GHz. Also aceptance angle of the fresnel lens or horn fitted matching the F/D of the dish.

All these things add up MUCH more than the alleged 0.3dB difference between a 0.6dB NF and 0.3dB NF LNB.

The MOST important thing is size of dish. Double the dish diameter and you have four times (12dB more) the signal.

mickeyboymel

Are diseqc motors any good really or would one be better off spending a few quid more and getting a heavy duty motor?

From what I have read, there are a lot of issues with them, especially in windy locations, and also with "play" causing the dish to move although only slightly,enough however to cause loss of reception, and speed of movement issues as they are controlled by the same cable as the LNB?

I too am thinking of going down the motorised road and am being drawn to the Technomate 5500 DAPCI, but am a complete novice to all the technology and it is difficult to decide what is "sales spin" and genuine information on websites

Ronan|Raven

I have a diseqc 1.2 Motor and am in a very windy spot and the loss of reception in heavy winds is minimal in my experience. They aint the fastest in the world but to go from 42 east to 30 west takes me 50 odd seconds which aint that slow imho. Apparently though as the motors get older more "play" comes into the equation and then one can notice regualr loss of signal in heavy winds but atm I havent experienced it.

Tony

The "silent gold" 36 v motor is very fast but one recently installed unit did have problems with wind although the winds at the moment are pretty exceptional. I also found that the angle of the mount bar prevented dish movement beyond 28 east and 30 w, no such problem with diseq motor although they are considerably slower. I've also fitted quite a number of polar mounts with linear actuators and they do not fare much better in windy locations.

Tony

Originally posted by mickeyboymel
Are diseqc motors any good really or would one be better off spending a few quid more and getting a heavy duty motor?

byte

Watty

What size is your "Dish 1 (with 3 LNBs)? I'm curious at being able to pick up 5E. Would I expect much FTA channels on this bird? Can't say I'm familiar with it.

As for LNB's I hear recommendations for MTI makes. I have one that I bought from Tony, though I never got around to using it and DIYing a bracket for my 80cm Triax (focused at 19E) to make it receive 28E! That's gonna be a wee project when the days get longer and less windy!

Anybody know someone that uses those Toroidal dishes with a multi-LNB arm and 2 reflectors?

watty

Just occasional pixellation and no problem moving satellite position with Moteck and 90cm dish during rattling gale this morning.

There are a bunch of channels reasonable strong on my 80/90cm motorised from 5E. I did have the 4th input of my 4-Way Diseqc switch on PC Sat card on a separate dish, its "main" dish (80/90cm) has:

1) 19E LNB on axis
2) Hotbird LNB on spacer to east, so gets 13E
3) 28E Dual LNB feed position 3 and also feeds Digibox, on 6" bracket/arm to west side.

28-19 = 9 degrees

13 -5 = 9 degrees,

So if I put another LNB on the long arm beside the existing centre, and arm on other side, and align on Hotbird and move 28E LNB further out (it very strong), I might get 5E, 13E, 19E and 28E on one dish.

7E is probabily easier but marginally less interesting

see www.lyngsat.com for 5E, 7E 13E 19E 28E FTA channels list





An early version of my multi-sat setup (revised since this)

Tony

Originally posted by byte

Anybody know someone that uses those Toroidal dishes with a multi-LNB arm and 2 reflectors?

I've been testing one (T55) for hotbird and astra 28, seems to work ok on all but the weakest hot bird transponders, might be a differnt story on the west coast though.

Tony

byte

Ah. There are T90's available too. I actuall found their website and with closer inspection, they're a bit uhm, mad!

I'll have to go down the route of DIYing and try getting my dish to work similar to Watty's image above! :ninja:

watty

I'll post a new pic.

I think for HotBird13E to Astra2A/B/D 28E coverage will all between, even in west a regular 80/90 cm elliptical is fine. Point the dish at Hotbird or Astra 19E.

I replaced the home-made brackets and plastic wraps long ago with a cheap commercial bracket and nuts/bolts.

"real" Toriodal dishs are for 10 or so LNBs feeding a cable head end.

For 7E, 10E, 13E, 16E, 19E on one dish (only any point with a distribution system) you need a 1.2m dish as the minimum LNB spacing on a 90cm dish gives about 4 or 5 degrees satellite spacing. This expands to 2 or 3 degrees on a larger dish. Simple geometry, as the dish gets bigger, to keep the same angle for LNB horn the Focal length must be bigger too (F/D ratio must be kept constant), so a larger LNB spacing is possible.

Very big dishes usually need LNB with separate horn (ten times price when you add all the separate flanged parts) for a non-standard F/D


With cost of LNBs, Disqec switch and bracket, a motor system is cheaper!

1) Multi-LNB system on one or more fixed dish
Advantages:
* Each Satellite can feed a different Receiver at same time (distribution systems), view different satellites simultanously.
* Near instant switching on a single receiver (no waiting for dish to rotate)
* One or more LNBs can be Dual or Quad to drive Digibox, PC etc at same time
* Suits some receivers that have no motor control. Even a Digibox can use a non-diseqc custom switch between 3 LNBs.

Disadvantages:
* Only the LNB on the main arm is easy to align. Alignment requires some skill and patience and DEFINATELY a meter.

2) Motorised Single LNB
Advantages:
* Low cost, about 100 Euro extra
* About 30 satellites even on 80/90cm dish
* Faster to setup a GOTO X / USALS than even a Sky fixed dish!
* Can be done without meter (but meter recommended).
Disadvantages:
* "Switching" time about 1 second per degree of angle required. About 15 seconds from Hotbird13 to Sky/Astra 28E. Some are faster or slower. A 36V motor or Jack is faster, but more expensive. A Jack has limited E/W range.
* No good for Distribution system. Even with Dual or Quad LNB every receiver sees same satellite.
* Not good for feeding Sky Digibox.



So neither Motorised or 4-Way Diseqc switch (Multiple LNBs on one dish) is "Best". It depends on your needs.

If you want every feed and channel possible then motorised.

If you want 3 satellites on one receiver that has Motor functions, then Motorised is cheapest.

If you want to quickly flick channels BBC World, BBC 1 TV and Ebs or feed two kinds of receivers simultanously, with 19E, 13E and 28E, then a multi-LNB fixed single dish is best.

If you want to give a bunch of satellites in Hotel, Flats, UNI etc, then Multi-LNB dish with Quattro LNBs and distribution system is best.

halkar

Padraig,
My 2 cents
1. I have a Stab100HH and Triax 1.1m dish, 3 years no problems, works like dream all the time and no issues finding sattelites (though I have a lot of patience and I play with them a lot that is the fun of it :P) I live in a windy area and I do loose reception sometimes but moving the dish to slight east or west fixes this.

2. I bought a FinePass 5000TDR from Hm-Sat without hard drive in germany, for 299 (i think price gone down a bit since then) I added my own hard drive. This is a German site and ordering is in German, I use Google translator . So far I am very happy with the receiver, its twin tuner and lets you watch while recording different channels on the same sattelite. (If you have twin lnb you can watch and record H or V channels with single lnb only V or H channels.)

3. A lot of French channels on Hotbirds and Astra19E, for PAL\Secam issues, most receivers will take care of this. Personally I didn't have problems so far.

4. For Cam I use Matrix Reloaded, a lot of manual work but it works Due to rules I will not go into this.;)

5. I have not yet try PVR to VCD or DVD yet, I haven't played with PVR much other than usuall timing for recording but for scrambled channels after recording you can't watch them, on my receiver there is an option to de-scramble it and lets you watch after this is done (very time consuming).

6. Radio is always there you will get many station via Sattelites. If you attached the reciver to speakers you can use without TV but you still need the menus to find the stations unless you know the channel number of the radio station.

7. Most equipments can be daisy chained but I found it to be better to use an external scart box to connecting equipments to TV. There are some in Argos.

Installation is fun I'd recommend you do it yourself, this way you can learn more about how all these things works. With the above setup I get most birds on East and 30W Hispasat. Not much on W birds until 30W, not much on 30W free either

All the best

P. Breathnach

Life can be difficult for beginners in this field.

So, at this stage, I think I will go for a 1m. dish with Disecq motor. A new question arises: is it easy to get a mounting kit to put it on a south-facing wall and which allows sufficient movement for all reasonably-interesting satellites?

On tuners: I have been following up on the recommendations that people have made (googling like mad), and the overall impression that I was forming was that PVR-capable receivers involve big decisions, and that each model seems to present challenges -- difficulty in using them, questionable software, and (most serious of all) high price. So I was starting to think that I should go for a fairly basic and inexpensive tuner to get me started, and postpone the expensive investment until I am more tuned-in. Now Halkar's recommendation of a relatively cheap option sends me back towards square 1! The Finepass FSR-5000 with 120 Gig disk costs 379 euros -- not bad, compared with the others. I'm tempted. Anybody else know this receiver?

Or should I go the cautious way, and live with a cheap tuner for a while until I understand things better?

Yet again, thanks to all for your inputs.

Padraig

watty

Well a under 100 Euro Palcom DSL4 will do everything needed well non-PVR, FTA.

It is little enough that if you later get a PVR you can have a QUAD o/p LNB or separate dish and use it as a second receiver or for radio.

halkar

Originally posted by P. Breathnach
...So, at this stage, I think I will go for a 1m. dish with Disecq motor. A new question arises: is it easy to get a mounting kit to put it on a south-facing wall and which allows sufficient movement for all reasonably-interesting satellites?

Padraig

Padraig , depending on the wind load you have on your south facing wall, I wouldn't recommedn getting the 1m dish and motor straight on to wall. I got a long , about 12-13 foot pole screwed to the ground and attached to wall with 2 brackets for support and stop shaking. I have my 1m dish at the top and the Sky dish below it with another pole. It might sound look awfull but it doesn't look bad once all in place. I had a ground stand but when I had the dish on it I couldn't get any further than Astra 28E due houses and trees around. This was I can go to 42E and nothing interesting after that. I'll try putting a pic of my setup when I get a chance to give you and idea how it looks

watty

Also Satellite 42E is about 48 degrees East on east coast, so pole needs to be enough out from wall, about 40cm should be plenty enough at a guess for 1m dish, maybe even as little as 30cm taking into account amount motor makes it stick out from wall.

At least it is more sheltered than mine which has no wall behind it

P. Breathnach

Right, folks, how does this sound?

I get a length of iron or mild steel scaffolding pole or something similar, about 60 cm., and brackets to attach it to the wall and hold it a little over 30 cm out. I might even get something welded together for maximum rigidity. I'd be fitting it to a proper block wall, so I should manage secure fixings with expanding bolts. The wall faces almost due south, and there is a little bit of windbreak to the west. Is there any danger that the wind might be too much, and risk damaging either the dish or the wall? (I think of the dish at its maximum rotation to the east, catching a lot of prevailing wind.)

It's about 25 m. from the location I have in mind for the dish to the place I propose to put the receiver. Is such a cable run okay? Ordinary co-ax, or something specially shielded, or a signal booster? How about the control signals for the Diseqc -- okay at 25 m.?

To start me off, I propose to use a cheapish receiver, knowing that if and when I get a bells-and-whistles job I can assign the cheapo to radio duty on the existing fixed 80 cm. dish, which I propose to leave in place (it's not in the way of anything).

Are we almost there? Do you think I should now buy the bits and talk to the man about installation? And give you guys a rest?

Padraig

halkar

I had a lot of wind here recent days and I am suprised that my 1m Triax is still up
I will be fixing the supporting pole on the pole as soon as the weather gets bit better and will put an Invacom 0.3 lnb. You shouldn't have any problems with 25m cable if you get a good one, mine is about 30m and no problems with signals and motor drive.

Greenman

Send us a pic or two when all is sorted!!!:)

halkar

Still have to fix the arm but not that important as no problems with winds so far. Here some pics I had today and we had some sun




Sorry for the quality, had to fix the pics to make them smaller for 56k turtles like myself

P. Breathnach

The stuff arrived today: 1m. Triax Dish, Diseqc Motor, Blue Line 0.6dB LNB, Lots of co-ax, some connectors, and a Palcom DSL-4 Tuner. I also got a serious-looking lump of metal for wall-mounting the dish. All I need now is bolts, and that's all my hardware.

I've been looking at the stuff and the accompanying paper. I'm beginning to get my head around the outside installation but I have a problem when I get my lead into the house. The instructions with the Palcom are in German, and I don't understand German. So far, I haven't been able to find an English version of the instructions on the web (or indeed, anything very much about the Palcom DSL-4).

Can anybody point me towards a helpful website, or tell me what to do?

Other things are happening this week, so the big adventure of trying to get things set up is scheduled for next Monday. That gives me a week to find out how to go about things. Then I'll be an expert, and tell the next newbie what to do!

Happy viewing

Padraig

Tony

you have PM Padraig

P. Breathnach

Folks,

Tony has sorted my problem -- credit to him for that. Now I hope that nobody else is busy typing a long and detailed response, or scanning in several pages to send to me!

When I hit my next snag, I'll let you know.

If I ever get this thing up and running, I'll tell you how it went.

P

P. Breathnach

I said that I would report back to you when I got my system up and running.

This is a progress report: it's up, but it's not running.

My mate John, who has some experience in setting up Sky systems, helped me. I had ascertained due south, thanks to clear sky around noon on Saturday (yes, I did remember that we are on daylight-saving time). We fitted a serious-looking bracket to the wall; attached the Disecq motor; mounted the dish and LNB; fed co-ax through the soffit, I did a very awkward crawl through the attic (we have dormer windows) and linked everything back to the Palcom DSL 4 and the television.

We set the elevation angle as close to the recommended setting as we could (it's difficult, with the scaling device on the Diseqc, to get more accurate than a degree or so). I lost the plot a bit with the declination angle, but John stuck on a meter, and located a satellite very close to due south (possibly Telecom 2C?) and we set the declination accordingly.

We turned the dish towards Astra, because we know what to expect there, and the Palcom tuned in a rake of stations. Feeling that we had it cracked, we tightened everything up, and John went home for his tea, and leaving me to sort out the rest of the tuning.

Zilch. Even the Astra stations got lost. I suspect that we lost position a bit in the tightening-up.

Investigation was necessary, and as I had nothing to watch on television, I did some measuring and checking. This is what I now have (living just a good walk south of the 54th parallel):
- My mounting bracket is vertical in the E-W plane, but leans slightly forward in the N-S plane;
- Diseqc set to elevation of about 35 degrees (it should be 36 and a tiny bit);
- dish set to declination of about (40-5.5) 34.5 degrees (it should be about 32.37).
It looks as if all the errors should compensate for one another (at least for satellites close to due south of me), but it seems that they don't.

Tomorrow's programme (if the rain holds off) is:
- ease off the bolts securing the mounting bracket, and use washers to achieve a closer-to-vertical position;
- try to get the Diseqc elevation closer to 36;
- tweak the declination on the dish (if John has time to call again with his meter).
Then I'll try to understand the next set of problems.

Observations:
1. The Diseqc looks like a clever piece of technology, delivering two different rotations under very precise control. Quite a lot of performance for under 100 euros.
2. Palcom also involves a lot of technology in an impressively-small box for not very much money.
I found a copy of "What Satellite TV" for 1995, and the extent to which prices have come down is spectacular.

A question (if anybody has stayed with me so far). When I turn on, the dish moves. I'm not sure to what position, because of my getting no signal, but it might be to where it thinks Astra is. Is that because Astra was successfully scanned before I lost it?

Tony

is it possible to get hold of an inclinometer or failing that a protractor and level? The way you could set the motor elevation correctly and then fine tune the declination when pointing at 5 w . Once you have the elevation set all you need do is fine tune the true south by going to an extereme east or west satellite and alter the EW of the motor by moving it on the pole.

Hope I've explained this correctly.

Tony

watty

Select Hispasat on your Palcom

Make sure GOTOX is enabled *AND* Diseq and you have put your N and W into the Menu.

The Dish elevation is same as motor elevation, MINUS the declination in the motor install table for your Northing.

The Elevation of motor is (on its scale) actually 90 - <your Northing>, unless it is the other kind of motor scale which is NOT elevation, but scaled direct in Northing, i.e. One type of scale you put simply 52 if you 52N, the other type of Motor scale you put 90-52 = 48

Scale on Satellite dish would in above example be 48 - declination angle (about 6 degrees, but see install table). Some motors the moving "arm" is not the same angle in which case the notes have a custom elevation angle for the dish to arm bracket.

Use a plumbline to make sure wall/motor pole is 100% vertical.

Actually with GOTOX using Hispasat is more reliable:
1) No nearby strong signals, and it is strong (27,500 V transponders)
2) Any error in Dish mount shows up more.
3) Move whole motor on its wall mount pole east/west gives a very sharp peak at exactly due south if palcom has rotated dish for Hispasat at 30W.

The pointing the Dish at a due South (5W, 8W etc) bird is for NON-Goto X motors and is much harder to align correctly as at top of arc the system is more tolerant of alignment errors. To far East or west any elevation, declination or East/west error on main pole is magnified, so accurate alignment is easier and then all the positions work.

Took me 15minutes to change a motor by this method.

PM me with which model of Motor you got and I will give more specific instructions.

P. Breathnach

No work today. It's very blustery, and I don't fancy taking down a 1 metre dish single-handed. I have images of the wind gusting just as I am slackening off the mounts, and the dish taking off. John isn't available until tomorrow and, anyway, he has the meter, so I'll wait.

Thank you for the responses to my progress report. It gives me a good feeling to know that if I get into difficulty, there are people prepared to take the time and trouble to help me get out.

Tony,

I looked for an inclinometer, but can't find one. I'm using a spirit level and there is a protractor somewhere in the house. What I'd like to know, but it doesn't appear in the instructions with the Diseqc, is what angle the mounting bar of the motor should make with the vertical if I have is set for an elevation angle of 36 degrees. It would be easier to check that than the scale on the unit itself. Is that an angle you know?

Watty,

I have already done most of what you suggest, including putting my co-ordinates into the GOTO X menu (to only one decimal place -- see the bit about angle of declination below).

On setting up the motor, I followed the manual, and my elevation angle at 54N should be 36 (90-54) and the declination angle should be 32.368 (40-7.632 -- the three places of decimals are intimidating). We found the declination angle by using a meter to detect the strongest signal at 5W. Is there anything wrong with doing that?

As I reported last night, I lost all signals, and I suspect that things shifted a little during tightening-up. So we will have to ease things, try to get the settings correct, and not lose them in tightening-up this time.

One of the minor inconveniences is that the televsion and receiver are almost as far from the dish as possible, requiring a lot of to-ing and fro-ing.

Tonight I'll read or surf the net, and try the television a few times to see if there has been a miracle and I now have signals. Tomorrow it's out with the spanners. Now, where's that protractor?

Padraig

Tony

Originally posted by P. Breathnach


What I'd like to know, but it doesn't appear in the instructions with the Diseqc, is what angle the mounting bar of the motor should make with the vertical if I have is set for an elevation angle of 36 degrees.

Padraig

Afraid not, I usually use the body of the motor itself rather than the bar

halkar

Padraig, my diseq motor elevation is around 30s not exactly sure of the number but I take a look later when I get home. Manual said to use the latitude which was 53.3 but that never worked for me. After playing with it up and down I found mid 30s was more suitable. As for the dish elevation it is about 24-26. I will try getting exact numbers which might help you for setting up. These settings works for me from 42E to 30W without problems. You will need to get your true south and the bird is Telecom2D or AtlanticBird2 at 8W. Not sure of your dish size but even with my 1m dish it was difficult to get signal from those birds but try few TPs and if all works tighten the motor, it will be slightly left of the centre of the pole. This is the hard way though, without proper signal meter it is trial and error. My receiver allows me to find any sattelite and from there it can move to other sattelites but without getting the motor and dish elevation right it always misses some either west or east.
All for the fun

watty

The motor elevation is 90- degrees North!

So 90 - 52 = 38 degrees.

The dish elevation will be some degrees less = motor elevation - (dish declination quoted in motor setup table).

The actual declination is not "true" declination as it depends also on "bend" in motor rotor arm

halkar

Ok, here is my setup. motor elevation is at 36 and the dish is 26 . These might change for your location but should be around these numbers. Assuming your pole is plum you should start hitting birds east to west if there are nothing blocking. I found Usals setup easy for finding the birds on the sky but it is not really fine tuned so manuall diseqc setup recommended.:) Though not sure if your receiver and motor supports Usals.
All the best.

watty

If some sats not working on Goto X / USALS then either
1) Your location entry is wrong
OR
2) The satellite entry is wrong
OR
3) The motor alignment is bad

or
4) The pole is not vertical


Manual Diseqc if it is better is not 100% either as you are partially compenstaing for one of the above errors which is better fixed.

P. Breathnach

Thank, Halkar.

I've now got motor elevation at 36 and dish at 30.5 (as near as I can read the scales and set to them). I have some signal, but seem to have an alignment problem -- more measuring and tweaking tomorrow. And maybe the day after, and...

Seriously, to all again, my thanks. I'm also getting help in PMs.

I hope this discussion is useful to other people as well as myself. Perhaps, if the operation is successful, we can draw it together as a mini-faq: "The ambitious idiot's guide to moving from ignorance to mastery in a week".

Tony

Originally posted by P. Breathnach
T
I hope this discussion is useful to other people as well as myself. Perhaps, if the operation is successful, we can draw it together as a mini-faq: "The ambitious idiot's guide to moving from ignorance to mastery in a week".

Yeah lets put the installers out of business:D

Tony

halkar

Originally posted by P. Breathnach
..I've now got motor elevation at 36 and dish at 30.5 (as near as I can read the scales and set to them). I have some signal, but seem to have an alignment problem -- more measuring and tweaking tomorrow. And maybe the day after, and...
....

Padraig, is your dish Triax by any chance? If it is, both sides have elevation marks and 26 degrees is on the right of the dish when you look from behing the dish. I always used the right as the numbers on the left are misleading and if I remember there is no 26 on the left. If your dish is not triax, you can ignore this advice

P. Breathnach

Tony,

I don't want to put anybody out of business, but where I live, I have been able to find only one installer who does anything other than Sky packages. I contacted him four times, and he gave me two dates on which he would come and sort out an installation for me. He never showed, and I have given up on him.

So I went down another path: find a good supplier who would provide all I need and give me good advice on how to proceed, ask questions wherever I can find generous experts (this forum is wonderful), and get stuck in. It's a strategy which you might approve, Tony.

Maybe I'll become an installer. If only climbing ladders didn't freak me out.

Halkar,

Yes, my dish is a Triax. It has scales on both sides which differ from one another. One side of the mounting bracket has a notch to indicate the dish angle, and as I see it, if I mounted the bracket the other way up, the notch would use the scale on the other side and give the same effect. In other words, it doesn't matter which way up I mount the bracket because my target angle (somewhere near 30) is available on either scale.

Update:
Yesterday the Palcom reported to me that it had a signal from Asta1 -- nothing from anything else, but a strong signal from Astra1. So I instructed it to scan in the sat, and I got about 70 channels (many duplicates) but it looked like an Astra2 set of broadasts. Could I have been nine whole degrees out? Even I am not that stupid! So I decided to concentrate today on getting my true south checked. I also restored the factory settings in the Palcom in preparation for the fresh attack on the problem. And that seemed to solve my problem (well, the satellite TV problem -- the rest of my problems are off-topic here). Suddenly satellites were where they were supposed to be. Somewhere along the way I must have managed to tell the Palcom to treat 9E as due south -- I don't know how, but it seems to have happened, and then I got it undone again by restoring factory settings.

Anyway, I set out to scan everything I could find. I got Eurobird at 28.5E, Astra at 28.8E, Astra at 19.2E, and Astra at 5.1 E -- nothing else. I suspect that there is more out there that I should be picking up, and that my set-up is following a plane that is slightly off the equator. Perhaps a little more tweaking with my dish angle would solve it. But I ain't going to mess about with things any more until I am sure that it is a good idea.

What does our collective think? Should I tweak the dish angle some more?

Tony

Originally posted by P. Breathnach
Tony,

I don't want to put anybody out of business, but where I live, I have been able to find only one installer who does anything other than Sky packages. I contacted him four times, and he gave me two dates on which he would come and sort out an installation for me. He never showed, and I have given up on him.

So I went down another path: find a good supplier who would provide all I need and give me good advice on how to proceed, ask questions wherever I can find generous experts (this forum is wonderful), and get stuck in. It's a strategy which you might approve, Tony.

I wholeheartedly approve, our industry in Ireland definitely needs more reliable and knowledgeable installers. It seems a lot of promises made get broken in almost every trade here, I always think it better to tell someone straight up what I can and cannot do, that way they can make alternative arrangements without wasting time and if I'm honest they may come back in the future.

Tony