The Rise and Fall of ManU

Xterminator

Is it a bit too soon to say we are seeing the decline of ManU?

I dont think so.

They havent dominated games the way they used too. Last season, it took the mother of all collapses from the Gunners, to prevent Man U finishing there second successive trophyless season!

The have lost influential players, like Stamm and Beckham, and then injury and suspension robbed them of Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Rio Ferdinand. But their replacements havent performed. Excepting Van Nisterooy, their recent signings haven't been 'top drawer'. (I know the jury is still out on 1 or 2 like Saha, and Ronaldo). Some signings have been adaquate, like Howard, and Rio, but some have been poor like Kleberson and Bellion.

Lat night was a crucial game, and given ManU's financial muscle, to be fielding a team that included Darren Fletcher, John O'shea and Wes Brown, just doesnt make sense. United's team should be comprised of the 'cream' of talent, not unproven players.

X

The Muppet

There is no doubt that United do not have the dept in squad that they used to have and in that respect yes they have declined. Wethere the players mentioned are good enough or not is open to debate i would give them another season before writing them off. Fletcher for example was very good at the weeeken d when playing central midfield i would agree he is noy as effective on the right. Kleberson has not played enought games to judge .

It has to be remembered that United have been without their best defensive partnership for two months now and lats night they alos missed thier captain.I think United are more in Transition than decline and i expect them to purchase a few quality players in the summere that will see them as genuine challengers again.

TwoShedsJackson

They've been wrongly written off before when they hit a patch of bad form, however the situation does seem far worse this time out. Ferguson has bought poorly in the last year or so and probably really should have retired, reputation untarnished, when he said he was going to.

They're going to have to change manager reasonably soon anyway, I'd do it after this season if I was in charge (oh how I wish )

daveg

My own opinions on the mistakes United have made this season:

I really think selling Beckham was a big mistake - esp for 25 million. His game had gone downhill over the past few seasons but his distribution of the ball is superb and he gives good options with his free kicks. You can really see it in United's game this season that there is a problem with the distribution of the ball from midfield to the forwards. Hopefully the return of Ole will help.

Fergie has again bought some "second rate" players this season. Djemba Djemba,
David Bellion, Kleberson and Cristiano Ronaldo just don't cut it as far as I'm concerned. Yes they are great players but they dilute the strength of the team when you play them with the likes of Keane, scholes, giggs, Van Nistelrooy. However he did make 2 excellent buy's in Tim Howard and Saha.

The backs should have been strenghened this season. Fergie has brought in Bellion/
Djemba-Djemba/Saha/Howard/Kleberson and Cristiano Ronaldo. No defenders (well apart from Howard as the keeper).

leeroybrown

I see the main problem with United this season (and going forward) as the decline in their midfield passing. United's best atribute was always that regardless of who they played up front they were always able to generate enough quality passing and ball retention in midfield to create bag loads of chances.

Keane, Scholes, Becham and Giggs as a unit always had enough quality to keep the ball passing around without losing the ball. Keane not being able to play regularly is the main problem. The lack of an adequate consistant Beckham replacement compounds it. Giggs hasn't played a consistently good long run of matches for years seems to play one brilliant game two/three times a season justifying his inclusion.

The defence is also a major issue, but to be honest if United passed the ball like they used to they wouldn't be shown up half as much. Last night was probably their best defensive performance in months but they still gave away a goal and invited twice the pressure they should have.

United are far from gone as all they have to do is pull out the cheque book in the summer and buy well.

Sposs

Whats the difference between Utd players and leicester players ?


Leicester players are still in europe !!!

daveg

Originally posted by Sposs
Whats the difference between Utd players and leicester players ?

3 of Leicsters players are in a Spanish jail?

Sposs

Eh it's a joke :rolleyes:

Pepe LeFrits

I don't think anyone can argue that United's team hasn't gone downhill recently. I don't think they've gone that far down, though. If Rio hadn't gotten suspended chances are they'd still be right up there with Arsenal fighting for the PL (probably a bit behind them at this stage though given Arsenal's winning streak), but still very much in it. Maybe they don't dominate as much as they used to, but i don't reckon that's possible considering how much Arsenal (and now Chelsea too) have improved.

It is more difficult to say whether it will go back up to be being a consistent PL winning team or continue down allowing Arsenal & Chelsea in on more titles. They are on the verge of losing the players who played a massive part in their domination over the past decade - Keane, Giggs, Scholes and Butt will all probably be off in the next few year, joining Beckham (whose true value has only really been shown in his absense, like Rio). Some of the above haven't really been playing that well recently which is a big reason for their slump. Whether the youngsters SAF is bringing in will replace them adequately remains to be seen. Ronaldo looks like very good but he'll have a tough job doing as well for United as Giggs has done. Howard looks like a good keeper, but he's made a few blunders recently that have cost dearly and will need more time be assessed. The pairing of Silvestre & Rio looks as good as any, and if this season proves simply to be a case of 2nd season syndrome, then O'Shea will be a very useful player for them. Djemba-Djemba, Kleberson, Bellion, Miller etc - only time will tell. Some of the best players in the league looked pretty crap when they first came to the PL, and look at them now. Hard to tell if that will be the case with these guys.

talla

Im getting a bit pissed off with this never should of sold Beckham crap. Beckham is a great player, we have seen that for both England and Real Madrid where he gives his all, and for United in his early days. Beckhams play for United in his last 2 seasons wasnt even average, it was below average. However the reason being, he had no one to challenge him for his place on the united team, he didnt show the same amount of commitment that he did when playing for England. If he had of applied that same amount of commitment and passion for United in the last 2 seasons he would still be at Old Trafford. You can can have all the ability you want in the world, but if you just do enough to get by, you are not an asset to the team. The reason hes playing so well at Madrid is because he knows damn well, he will be dropped straight away and replaced if his form even drops over a couple of games, yet alone getting away with it for 2 years. If Beckham was still at United this season, his performances for United would not have changed, he would still be putting in mediocore performances. Everyone get real about the last two seasons when you say they never should have sold him!

eirebhoy

Totally agree with Talla.

SteM

Agreed talla. Selling Beckham was the best thing for the player and the club. I think United should have gotten more for him though.

lad12

Manchester United's exit from the Champions League - the first time they have failed to reach the quarter-final in eight seasons - sent shock waves around Old Trafford.

Sir Alex Ferguson can rightly point to the ill-fortune of conceding a last-minute goal against Porto and the perils of an horrendous decision from a linesman that ruled out a potentially decisive second goal from Paul Scholes.

But the late winner has been United's stock in trade through their glory years - just ask Bayern Munich and many other victims - while blaming an official would only disguise a painful truth about United's demise.

And that is the brutal fact that the calamitous setback against Porto was an accident that has been waiting to happen to Manchester United all season.

This is why.

---

THE DAVID BECKHAM DEAL
Ferguson loves horse-racing - so he will have known he was taking a gamble by allowing one of Old Trafford's thoroughbreds to leave and join a stable that could arguably be regarded as United's biggest European rival.


Beckham has not been truly replaced
Beckham's time at United appeared to have become a misery, with Ferguson sick of his celebrity lifestyle and more than happy to see him leave.

The deal was tacitly accepted by supporters on the basis that their trust in Ferguson was implicit as a result of his success and that he already had a ready-made replacement in the bag... didn't he?

Beckham was regarded as something of an under-achiever in his closing days at United, but what would they have given for him against Porto?


THE SUMMER TRANSFER MARKET
Ferguson appeared to pin all his hopes on securing Brazil's brilliant World Cup winner Ronaldinho from Paris St Germain as a player who could provide the profile, glamour, inspiration and football fantasy to replace Beckham.

After a tedious summer saga, Ferguson uncharacteristically missed out on his prime target as Ronaldinho joined Barcelona.

The charismatic forward's form in Barcelona's La Liga resurgence is leaving United with serious cause for regret.

It left Ferguson with money to spend, and after missing out on the jewel in Brazil's crown he decided to have a punt on a few unpolished gems.

Cameroon midfielder Eric Djemba-Djemba arrived from Nantes but has struggled to cope with the Premiership and Europe's demands.

Kleberson was also a Brazil World Cup winner, but Beckham or Ronaldinho he is not and he was left on the bench on Tuesday.


Ronaldinho deal was scuppered

Cristiano Ronaldo appeared to be Ferguson's idea of Beckham's natural replacement at £12.5m, the Scot even handing him the prized number seven shirt.

Ronaldo is something of a show pony who needs the rough edges knocking off, understandable in a teenager, but he is very much one for the future and was not trusted with a starting place against Porto.

Unknown American goalkeeper Tim Howard arrived from Metrostars to replace Fabien Barthez and has looked a real find for most of the time.

But the edges have frayed as United's form has fluctuated and he made a basic error for Porto's equaliser.

Howard deserves a measure of sympathy because, in reality, he lacks experience at the top level, certainly in coping with the pressure points of the Champions League.

So Ferguson, having lost a major world star, filled the gap with bit-part players.

He built for the future when the present needed more urgent attention - and has paid an expensive price.


THE FOLLY OF ROY KEANE
The influence of captain Roy Keane was sorely missed against Porto, but United can have no complaints because it was all the result of their captain's crass stupidity.

Keane, so willing to lecture team-mates, showed gross irresponsibility to stamp on Porto keeper Vitor Baia in the first leg in Portugal.

Ferguson claimed it was not in Keane's nature to be malicious. Sorry, Sir Alex - just study his record, or if you're still not sure read the passage in his book about Alf-Inge Haaland.

If United were hurt by Keane's absence, it was a senseless, self-inflicted wound.


THE FERDINAND FACTOR
The eight-month ban on Rio Ferdinand for missing a mandatory drugs test has knocked a huge hole in United's rearguard.

But the suspicion remains that if United had acted with just a tinge of humility and accepted a measure of wrong-doing instead of defending the indefensible, the punishment might have been less severe and damage limited.

Tactically and morally wrong - and a serious error.


THE JANUARY TRANSFER WINDOW
Ferguson's failure to fill the gap left by Ferdinand's absence looks more like a major blunder with every passing week

United have not kept a clean sheet for nine matches and have recorded only three in their last 18 games.


Ferdinand gap has not been filled

Ferguson set his stall out for Louis Saha as a Champions League foil for Ruud van Nistelrooy up front.

All very well, but it smacked of putting a new roof on when the foundations were in serious need of repair.

Ferguson's decision not to sign a top-class central defender as cover is inexplicable. Middlesbrough's Gareth Southgate could surely have been lured to Old Trafford - or, if not, a supposed worldwide web of contacts could have produced talent.


ROCK OF GILBRALTAR
Ferguson says his ability to manage Manchester United was not affected by the row over breeding rights for Rock of Gilbratar with racing tycoon and major United shareholder John Magnier.

This may be so, but it provided a grim backdrop to United's season, with questions about the club's transfer dealings and threats of the courtroom.

The dispute has been settled - but the outbreak of peace will not be celebrated by an appearance in the Champions League final.


CHELSKI
United have been hit by several shots across the bows from the mighty financial power of Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich.

He lured respected chief executive Peter Kenyon away from Old Trafford and has muscled in on transfer territory traditionally dominated by Ferguson.


Abramovich is haunting Old Trafford
United coveted Blackburn's Damien Duff for years, but had no answer to Chelsea's £17m summer bid.

And despite appearing to have a deal for PSV Eindhoven's Arjen Robben tied up, Chelsea blew them out of the water again when the Old Trafford paymasters reduced their offer.

Ferguson insisted they would not have matched Chelsea's offer - but it was a symbolic defeat for the one-time master of the transfer market.


THE FUTURE
One defeat - no matter how damaging - will not bring the institution of Manchester United crashing down just yet.

Ferguson has suffered blows before, but few as potentially significant as this.

The summer will be crucial for Ferguson. The guard must be changed. Top-class proven talent must be brought in - even if it means battling Abramovich's chequebook.

It may not be the end of an era yet, but it is certainly Ferguson's most testing time.

_blank_

Fact: At Xmas United were top of the League.

Fact: Since Xmas they have lost the most expensive defender in the World, who many people had written off as a waste of money.

Fact: Since Xmas United have fallen 9 points behind Arsenal, that is a 10 point slip.

Surely people can see that the two are directly related.

Fact: People were calling Ferguson to buy to strengthen the strike force.

Fact: January Transfer window Ferguson buys Saha.

Now people are saying that Ferguson did the wrong thing. Before and during the transfer window Uniteds defence looked like it could cope with the loss of Ferdinand. Brown was coming from a 5 month injury, of course it will take players time to re-adjust(he came good last night?) Miki Silvestre had started a good partnership with Ferdinand in the centre of defence, and Gary Neville is a more than adequate right back, with O'Shea at left back.

Ferguson's summer purchases: Ronaldo, Bellion, Kleberson, Djemba, Howard

Ronaldo: Good player, with huge potential, will become a great, deserving of the No.7 jersey.

Bellion: Bought stricktly with the future in mind, watch him progress.

Klebersn: World Cup Winner, and integral to the Brazil team that did so, it takes South American footballers longer to settle to the European game, will improve.

Djemba: Has not been given a chance yet.

Howard: Success, better all round attitude than Lehmann, prob in the top 3 'keepers in the PL.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by SteM
Selling Beckham was the best thing for the player and the club. I think United should have gotten more for him though.

Are you serious? Last season in the premiership Beckham scored 6 goals and set up 9 while Duff scored 9 and I don't know how many he assisted (although he has 6 assists in less than 20 games for Chelsea this season. Duff was 24 at the time of sale while Becks was 28. Also Duff is a more effective player in general. People were saying Chelsea were mad to pay 17mil for Duff and you are saying United should have got more for Becks.

SteM

Good post seansouth. I'd agree with everything you said except for Bellion, I don't see him having much of a future at Old Trafford (but I've been wrong in the past ).

I'm already looking towards next season now, that's when the new signings will prove whether they've been worth taking or not as they'll have settled down by then. This is just a stumble, certainly not a fall.

SteM

Originally posted by eirebhoy
Are you serious? Last season in the premiership Beckham scored 6 goals and set up 9 while Duff scored 9 and I don't know how many he assisted (although he has 6 assists in less than 20 games for Chelsea this season. Duff was 24 at the time of sale while Becks was 28. Also Duff is a more effective player in general. People were saying Chelsea were mad to pay 17mil for Duff and you are saying United should have got more for Becks.

Beckhams worth was as much in marketing as footballing by the time he finished at OT. I'm saying that Real got a moneymaking machine and I don't think United got full value for him.

Also, Beckham was a proven talent (a treble winder with United) and England captain - Duff is a talanted left winger who has done well at Blackburn but never won anything so I don't really know why you're using him as a comparison.

astrofool

last time united had a tropyless season, and everyone said they were in decline, they won the treble the year after.

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Michelangelo

I totally agree with everything SeanSouth has just put to the table. Totally correct.

jank

where did you cut and paste that article from lad12?
usualy on boards we give credit to the source and usually post the link no the whole article

elbow316

Howard: Success, better all round attitude than Lehmann

lol. Lehmann has conceded less goals, look much more commanding between the posts and given his defense much more confidence.
Howard has looked like an excellent shot-stopper but has made plenty of mistakes , including all 4 Everton goals a few weeks ago, which was pointed out on Soccer Saturday 2 weeks ago. He seems to have lost his confidence, possibly following on from the bad defenders playing in front of him. Lehmann's more arrogant and aggressive attitude means that he wouldn't fade away like this.

SteM

Is there any wonder he's lost confidence with the defending that's gone on in front of him recently? I think he's looked a very good buy all in all so far.

jank

http://www.football365.com/opinion/f365_opinion/story_103165.shtml

very good article there about UTD and thier claim to be the biggest club in the world

Xterminator

Originally posted by seansouth
Ferguson's summer purchases: Ronaldo, Bellion, Kleberson, Djemba, Howard

Ronaldo: Good player, with huge potential, will become a great, deserving of the No.7 jersey.

Good player? Inconsistant would be closer to the truth. Yes he has bags loads of potential. But as to becoming a great? ..Only time will tell. There's 10 players who dont fulfil their potential, for everyone that does! Besides last night was a key game in United season. He didint get a start. Shows how un-convinced Alex is of him too.

Originally posted by seansouth
Bellion: Bought stricktly with the future in mind, watch him progress.

Newsflash. He is crap. Your ManU tinted glasses are showing.

Originally posted by seansouth
Klebersn: World Cup Winner, and integral to the Brazil team that did so, it takes South American footballers longer to settle to the European game, will improve.

So far he hasnt shown anything. Still time to come good ... but so far dissapointing.
If he cant force his way into the team, when they are beset by poor form, and injuries and suspensions, i dont fancy his chances.

Originally posted by seansouth
Djemba: Has not been given a chance yet.

Ditto.

Originally posted by seansouth
Howard: Success, better all round attitude than Lehmann, prob in the top 3 'keepers in the PL.

Those tinted glasses again. Started well, has suffered recent loss of form, and confidance. Squad depth is an issue here, because i dont think Roy Caroll is top flight material, so united have a talented rookie suffering a dip in form, and no ready made replacement.

X

The Muppet

Originally posted by Xterminator
Good player? Inconsistant would be closer to the truth. Yes he has bags loads of potential. But as to becoming a great? ..Only time will tell. There's 10 players who dont fulfil their potential, for everyone that does! Besides last night was a key game in United season. He didint get a start. Shows how un-convinced Alex is of him too.

He didn't start last night because Fergie was taking the cautious approach playing a more defensively minded player in that position. Fergies confidence or lack of it in ronaldo is not an Issue. Ronaldo has been MOTM in the last 2 games he player and he will be a Star at Utd.

Originally posted by Xterminator

Those tinted glasses again. Started well, has suffered recent loss of form, and confidance. Squad depth is an issue here, because i dont think Roy Caroll is top flight material, so united have a talented rookie suffering a dip in form, and no ready made replacement.

X

You would want to get your own glasses checked. You are conveniently forgetting to mention that Howards apparent dip in form coincides with Utds defence being weakened by the loss of a number of key players.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Originally posted by The Muppet
You would want to get your own glasses checked. You are conveniently forgetting to mention that Howards apparent dip in form coincides with Utds defence being weakened by the loss of a number of key players.

Which would seem to suggest that he is not as good a keeper as he was originally made out to be. Anybody can be a good keeper behind a good defence, it's when the defence is poor ala brimingham's for example and he still saves significantly more shots than are conceded that he can be shown as an excellent keeper.

I would agree with quite a few of the posters here tha AF's savvy for buying players who would come in and do a job seems to have left him a bit. Tim howard is by no means a bad keeper and was prob the best of AF's pre-season buys, Ronaldo may need a few years and as for Kleberson, was he not just bought to give Ronaldinho more of an incentive to sign..

Utd will be luck to win anything this year, which is not a disaster in itself but with a few of their stars passing their prime and no replacements of the same quality, they may be a while rebuilding.

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Michelangelo

I agree. Howard is a top goalkeeper and has been one of the best players this season for Man Utd. He has made some amazing saves and kept Utd in games. Even against Fulham last weekend, his super quick feet to get to the other side of the goal to get a really important save made when he was at full stretch.

Why are people criticising Tim Howard?

Because they are having a swipe at one of the best teams in the world when they are having a **** season on the pitch and off it. Do you not think it is a bit too much of a coincidence when Utd start playing so badly and with lack of confidence when off the pitch matters such as Rock of Gebraltor and Ferdinand being banned for a missed drugs test is getting in the way?

Ok so, this season will not be Utd's best, far from it actually but do not be so stupid to write them off just yet.

Djemba, kleberson and Bellion may all be cack now but don't write these guys off because they are not meant for now. As for the constant criticism Ronaldo receives, just remember, he was not meant to be at Old Trafford until next season.

Pepe LeFrits

Who exactly is criticising Howard here?

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

elbow316

I wasn't particularly criticising Howard. As I said, he's an excellent shot-stopper but I just think he's been a bit over-rated. Man U fans were so quick to jump up and say this guy was outstanding, I just think he still has a lot to prove tbh.

The Muppet

Originally posted by Thanx 4 The Fish
Which would seem to suggest that he is not as good a keeper as he was originally made out to be. Anybody can be a good keeper behind a good defence, it's when the defence is poor ala brimingham's for example and he still saves significantly more shots than are conceded that he can be shown as an excellent keeper.

I think we've been here before.;)

He has made mistakes lately(what keeper doesn't) but has also made top class saves, even last night. confidence is very important particularly to Goalkeepers and he can not have much confidence with those in front of him of late. I believe him to be the best United keeper since smeichal and would not put the blame him for United poor results of late.


It may be a blessing if United win nothing this year as it will force the board into spending on quality proven players instead of the Potential they have been buying lately.

[DF]Lenny

I would be slightly wary of heaping so much praise on Howard just yet.The 1st season has gone well for him but in truth any 'keeper at such a big club can only be judged as to how he copes with the negatives.Howard made a blistering start which helped his confidence hugely but the real measure of the man will be how he responds after dips in form/being dropped from 1st team.GK's are only judged successful after at least 2-3 seasons and Fergie seems to be less tolerant of goalkeeping failures than anywhere else on the pitch.Confidence at that playing level is a fragile beast.

Ronaldo on the other hand does indeed show all the traits to make it at the top(naff hairdo and all).The level of expectation on the kid is frightening but he has played well when called upon.The frequency with which he looses the ball will decrease with age and with the proper coaching he will probably be Man U's main man for years to come...

Pepe LeFrits

Yes, why don't you?

They complimented him and said he has suffered a loss in form. Which he has.

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

elbow316

doh typo

The Phenom

They doing badly in a couple of games actually there having a bit of a bad season.
But i wouldn't go as far to say we are witnessing the fall of Man U. There bad form as of late could happen to any team i mean you can't win them all.

Pacifico

Why am i in your sig kaids? Have i won some sort of award?In which case you should really have told me;)

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by smiaras
Need my glasses kaids?

EDIT/ prehaps you'd like soemthing of a definition? - http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=criticise

Your ability to quote obvious typos is astounding.

Saying that Howard has made mistakes (when he clearly has) may marginally fit into your definition of 'criticism' but it is completely warranted.

Your idea that Howard should be immune from people pointing out he hasn't been the worlds greatest goalkeeper EVAR (tm) this season because he's new is ridiculous. All players regardless of how long they've been around should be judged on what they've done. It's called balance.

Badly Drunk Boy

I notice that there's practically no criticism of Ferguson. Personally I've never liked him (for some strange reason) but I reckon that he is majorly at fault for United's current sitiation (as the man himself'd say ). He has let personality get in the way of the football for years, but having the depth and talent in his squad to get away with it.

He got rid of Beckham for personal reasons, and the same for Stam (although I realise that Stam thing was slightly different). And now he seems to have lost all interest in the club.

I'll say no more (especially as it might be libellous. :ninja: )

But maybe not...

Dustaz

You utter muppets. You fools. You misguided one sided blinded sycophants.

Early in the season there was a thread about the two new keepers. The moaners were shouting from the rooftops that since manu had conceded less goals than arsenal, howard by definition was the better keeper. Even when people pointed out that this was a particulary imbecilic way to judge the skill of a keeper it was still getting trotted out as an equation worthy of einstein.

Now that poor tim finds himself on the wrong side of this ridiculous guide, its because of rio, or a crap defense , or the rock of gibralter, or the alignment of the stars.

For gods sake, hes a great keeper. Hes not the next messiah. Hes having a dip in form. I have no idea who is the better keeper between the two of them but i know that you cant judge either of them till the end of the season.

Sorry to interrupt the hyperbole, Ill now return you to the usual tabloid rubbish.

Michelangelo

Originally posted by Dustaz
You utter muppets. You fools. You misguided one sided blinded sycophants.

Early in the season there was a thread about the two new keepers. The moaners were shouting from the rooftops that since manu had conceded less goals than arsenal, howard by definition was the better keeper. Even when people pointed out that this was a particulary imbecilic way to judge the skill of a keeper it was still getting trotted out as an equation worthy of einstein.

Now that poor tim finds himself on the wrong side of this ridiculous guide, its because of rio, or a crap defense , or the rock of gibralter, or the alignment of the stars.

For gods sake, hes a great keeper. Hes not the next messiah. Hes having a dip in form. I have no idea who is the better keeper between the two of them but i know that you cant judge either of them till the end of the season.

Sorry to interrupt the hyperbole, Ill now return you to the usual tabloid rubbish.

Easy now...

smemon

Originally posted by Xterminator
Some signings have been adaquate, like Howard, and Rio, but some have been poor like Kleberson and Bellion.

X

i disagree howard and rio are adaquate players. both would make it into any side in the premierleague, even arsenal.

in all fairness kleberson hasnt got many games and bellion even fewer. beckham going for me meant a loss of 'manchester united' not of team manutd. he WAS manutd off the pitch, a representitive known all over the world. he's missed to a certain extent but ronaldo looks capable of making that right flank his own for the future.

saha is a much needed boost of energy to the attacking side of things. midfield is the key for me, we're missing someone to play alongside roy, not another defensive player like butt, p.neville. for me, miller should do wonders for utd's midfield. he's an outstanding player and is perfect to link midfield and attack, the same way roy links defense with midfield.

at the back maybe 1 more player is needed at most, people exagerate the weaknesses of our defense. when fully fit, utd's defense is right up their with arsenal's and chelsea's.

i think THE major issue noone see's is the gelling needed down the flanks- o'shea and giggs, g.neville and ronaldo. utd were so used to irwin-giggs, silvestre-giggs had just started to gel well too, then of course g.neville-becks.

jank

spot on dustaz i remember those polls and threads too, now that the shoe is on the other foot excuses are abound
like there were people on here at the start of the season saying that he was one of the best europe and only played around 10 or so games at the top level!?

using man u logic lehman is the best keeper in europe now (and even i know that aint true!)

SteM

Originally posted by Dustaz
You utter muppets. You fools. You misguided one sided blinded sycophants.

Early in the season there was a thread about the two new keepers. The moaners were shouting from the rooftops that since manu had conceded less goals than arsenal, howard by definition was the better keeper. Even when people pointed out that this was a particulary imbecilic way to judge the skill of a keeper it was still getting trotted out as an equation worthy of einstein.

Now that poor tim finds himself on the wrong side of this ridiculous guide, its because of rio, or a crap defense , or the rock of gibralter, or the alignment of the stars.

For gods sake, hes a great keeper. Hes not the next messiah. Hes having a dip in form. I have no idea who is the better keeper between the two of them but i know that you cant judge either of them till the end of the season.

Sorry to interrupt the hyperbole, Ill now return you to the usual tabloid rubbish.

Ah come on Dustaz, the football threads on boards.ie nearly always end up like this, I don't know why you're bring it up now

Someone: Lets discuss something
someone else: I like United.
Someone else: Manure are sh1t.
Someone else: You're wrong.
Someone else: No, you're wrong.
{thread goes the off topic again}

The Muppet

I remember the polls too and the question at the time was "who is the best keeper in the prem" and Howard was voted th winner by the majority. As Kaids says

Posted by kaids
All players regardless of how long they've been around should be judged on what they've done. It's called balance.

so at the time Howard was at the top of his form and was the best keeper for the majority of people who voted in the poll, The arguments in that thread arose when some people said he should not be even considered because he was not around long enough which others (myself included) thought was unfair considering the question that was asked .


Some of you seem to think Utd fans are just making excused about our missing defenders but how do you think arsenal would do without Campbell and Toure and if Arsenal started losing matches would you not be pointing out their absence as the reason? Its fact that Utd is missing Our preferred Central defence which was up there with the best for the first half of the season, to expect their absence to have no effect on team results is unrealistic.



<edit> Initally posted under a different users account who had logged in on my pc , sorry for any confusion </edit>

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Ronan|Raven

FFS! United are having a slump at the moment, yes Ferguson one can say has made some poor decisions lately, maybe his mind was on other things god knows. The defense seems to be the biggest problem at UTD at the monet but they are still doing pretty well, not my their own standards admitidly. One cant be at the top all the time, and id say United will give Arsenal a good run at the Semi Final and could well sneak it. If and when it turns into a bloody 14 year slump like Liverpool and the fans are in atm then get worried!

tHE vAGGABOND

Dustaz - easy now! You well know we dont like abusive posts..

Keep is nice in here, or this thread thread will vanish

scojones

oh come on! the fall of man united? that's crap, even IF they don't win anything this season (they are going to win the fa cup btw) that does not mean they are not the team they used to be, or that they are 'falling'... That's crap, they are doing well in the league and well in the FA cup, and even if they come 2nd in the league and get knocked out of the cup by arsenal that does not mean that the team is in trouble. Get real - 2nd in the league and getting beat by arsenal this far in the fa cup? that's an excellent season! HOWEVER they are going to win the fa cup so close this thread!