Advice on ESB meter issue

shoegirl

I've just had a nasty surprise in my tenancy. I live alone and rent a one bedroomed flat, which is nothing fancy, but large and bright and pleasant. It is not cheap, but is of a reasonable standard and to date I've got on very well with the landlord.

Now I have been there 18 months without a rent rise. Until recently I had horrific debts which often left me being late with the rent once a month - however for the last 3 or 4 months I've actually been giving the landlord a full month in advance, even though the rent was weekly. I was worried that this might encourage the landlord to up the rent.

The only problem with the flat was that I had no hot running water in the sinks, which I believe would probably have classed the flat as substandard. However I tolerated this situation as the landlord installed an extremely good power shower, and I just boiled water for washing the dishes or hand washing clothes. Last year I started asking the landlord could he do anything to put in an immersion heater so I could have hot running water and he said he would do it some time early this year.

Now one of the perks of the tenancy was that there was no ESB bill or meter - up to now. (As there is no central heating this was a huge perk as I'm dependent on electric heaters - and boy does it get cold in winter). Until this week. My landlord finally installed and connected the immersion, however he also said he would either have to install a meter or up the rent. I said I was not happy at that, mainly because I really had no idea how much extra this would cost me (I do respect the fact that a rent increase could be on the cards, whatever about my friends telling me that rents are going down - somehow I don't think this is the reality). So yesterday I discovered a note telling me that a meter was installed and its switched on.

My big fear on this is that my landlord was unable to tell me how much extra this will cost me and now I'm worried that I am ending up with what could turn out to be an unreasonable rent increase effectively. I am particularly worried that the new arrangement will leave me paying more than €10 a week for electricity and in fairness, I would have been more happy paying a bill as I understand meters are more expensive.

Any ideas? I'm pessimistic about having many rights on this issue, but is there anything I can do aside from negotiate? I am now wondering was it worth my while asking for hot running water at all as effectively I have been penalised for wanting proper standards.

Borzoi

Originally posted by shoegirl
My big fear on this is that my landlord was unable to tell me how much extra this will cost me and now I'm worried that I am ending up with what could turn out to be an unreasonable rent increase effectively. I am particularly worried that the new arrangement will leave me paying more than €10 a week for electricity and in fairness, I would have been more happy paying a bill as I understand meters are more expensive.

In fairness, how could the landlord tell what the bill will be as it will depend on how much ESB you use.

There is no real 'extra' charge for a meter, as you can see
here you only pay for your usage, plus a small levy for environmentally friendlier energy

I would presume that your landlord put aside a fraction of your rent each week/month towards the ESB, what you need to do is get him to give you this back off your rent, and then you take responsilbility for the ESB.

To give you an idea of cost:
60W light bulb per hour = 0.64 cent
800W microwave per 5 mins = 0.43 cent
3kW (3 bar) electric heater per hour = 32.25 cent
Power shower (up to 9kW), 15min shower = 24.2 cent
1 ring hob cooking, 20mins = 5.375 cent
Immersion heater (3.5kW) 15mins for a sink load = 9.4 cent

As you can see, the biggest expense will be on heating, so your bills in summer will be small, and winter could be pricey. If I was to guess, budgeting €3-5 per week summer, €10-15 winter, depending of how much time you spend at home.

Hope this helps:)

Victor

We have a two bed flat in an old building with a living room / kitchenette and immersion for hot water, together with washing machine, electric cooker etc. The bill tends to be between €40-50 every **two** months. Now our heating is separate, but if you have a smaller place, even with electric heating I can't see the bill being substantially more.

I imagine you could agree something with the landlord.

shoegirl

Thanks for the advice but this is an extra, new expense, which I wasn't paying previously, and thats why I'm worried about it. The landlord will not be deducting it from my rent - this will be additional to my rent, so effectively its the same as a rent rise. I'm keeping an eye on the cost and if it costs me more than €10 a week I will have to move out, as I will no longer be able to afford the cost.

As for the landlord "not knowing" how much this will cost me, he ought to know, as he has previously been paying it, and he would not be passing this cost onto me if he had no idea how much it was costing him. My experience of landlords is that they are extremely wily, I've yet to come accross a landlord who hadn't worked out to the last farthing the cost of everything.

Victor

A few more things.

Estimate the usage that you have been having (see the ESB sample above) and ask the landlord to reduce the bill by that amount. He won't know what it costs to cover you individually, as presumably, there was no private meter either. Make sure your estimate doesn't exceed what his bill would be.

Present the paying of rent in advance as insecurity, that you need to pay it because you need to manage your money tightly (not because you are flush with cash).

Make sure the immersion tank has a lagging jacket. This more than halves the cost of running the immersion. Make sure the immersion has "On/off/timer" settings, this way you can make sure it isn't left on all night. Make sure pipes are insulated.

Make sure the meter only has your room connected. Some people are unscrupulous. You can do a simple check by turning off everything in your flat and then see if the meter is still counting - do this at various times of the day when other users are in the building.

Whose name is the bill in? Some landlords run a scam where the bill is in their name, but get the tenant to pay. They then write off the bill against tax, without having spent the money.

shoegirl

I'm a bit confused by your advice Victor - previously I didn't pay an ESB bill and my landlord is not deducting anything off my bill - this is a new expense I am being forced to pay, on top of my rent - bascially its a de facto rent increase in all but name. The landlord is not deducting anything - previously he was probably using some of my rent to pay the bill, so as far as I was concerned, ESB was his business.

Also I can tell you for a fact that my landlord has the bill in his name, and up to now all tenants aside from me were paying towards their bills by coin operated meters installed and controlled by the landlord. I was the exception.

Not only this but since the meters are installed and controlled by the landlord, I do not know if the figure I am paying is the exact cost of the ESB, or cost of ESB plus a little extra for the landlord. I'll have to examine the units I have used after 10 euro and compare them to the charges per unit on the ESB website.

It would appear to me that the landlord HAS been carrying out this scam, but then again I have yet to meet an honest and decent landlord in Ireland.

At the moment I'm monitoring the situation to see how much extra it is going to cost me, taking into account minor cutbacks I might have to make (such as leaving the heat on when gone to the shop etc and leaving electric devices on standby).

Victor

In essence, we are agreed that the landlord is going to try this:

Existing Situation

Accommodation	€370 (hypothetical)
ESB		€ 30
Total		€400


Future Situation

Rent		€400
ESB		€ 30
Total		€430

What you need to do is get him to reduce the rent from the €400 to the €370 accommodation figure.

Is there a risk of no new shoes for shoegirl. :eek:

shoegirl

I see your point, but do you honestly think that my landlord is going to take me seriously if I ask for a rent reduction? Irish landlords generally don't take kindly to the idea of reducing the rent. I understand the suggestion, but this is effectively a backdoor rent increase - by virtue of the fact that the landlord is now saving a bit off the ESB on the place. I will certainly suggest it, but I very much doubt it will get me far. I might demand a few more minor repairs to be done if I don't get anywhere - there's a need for a lick of paint.

Looks like the shoes will have to wait for the next pay rise :-(

Roll on better tenancy laws that will prevent this kind of ambiguity in the future.

Tommy Vercetti

To be honest, even at €15 per week in electricity, the least he could do is knock off a tenner a week off your rent. You have been there 18 months, and the fact that even when you were late paying your rent, you still paid it, where some people would have done a runner, makes you a good tenant to him. If you move out, he has to find a new tenant (possibly costing him in advertising), and from the day you move out til the day the new tenant moves in, he's gonna be losing money, and then there's the uncertainty about the new tenant.

Approach him about it, the worst he can do is say no.

Andrew Duffy

I just got a rent reduction, in return for signing a new one-year lease. (Actually, to be fair, my girlfriend got a reduction - she's more polite than me). With dropping rents a sensible landlord should listen to you - the cost to him of redecoration and a month or two with the property empty is a lot more than giving you a reduction. Check out the going rate for your type of place in your area on daft.ie and make sure he knows.