Guns on Aer Lingus flights now?

Sparks

From BreakingNews.ie:

The Government is preparing to allow armed US sky marshals on transatlantic flights from Ireland.
A spokesperson for the Department of Transport says that if the United States wants marshals on a flight here, an exemption to the firearms ban on flights is likely to be granted.
The issue has split the EU, with Italy being the latest country to rule out sky marshals.
The Italians are instead opting for rigorous pre-flight security checks.

I'm just wondering - were they planning on telling us at the next Ard Fheis?
*mutters*
The ERU, armed, in plain clothes, as air marshals? I think I'd rather walk....

PHB

The people who would be flying to america would be willing to have their fignerprints and genetic data stored for years anyway, I don't think they will care that much about Sky Marshals, if anything they'll agree with them as they think it will increase security.

Sparks

Originally posted by PHB
I don't think they will care that much about Sky Marshals, if anything they'll agree with them as they think it will increase security.

Maybe it's just that I know the ERU have shot more ERU officers and civilians than bad guys, or that I've heard worse horror stories from the guys who train them with firearms, or maybe it's that I've listened to the BALPA's statements on airline security, but I don't agree, at least relating to the benefical effects on security.
If you want to protect against hijackings, step up airport security - once the hijacker gets on board, you've lost.

The Muppet

Originally posted by Sparks
Maybe it's just that I know the ERU have shot more ERU officers and civilians than bad guys,

Their reputation is not the best but if the situation has arisen that they have to take action on a flight you're life expectancy is already pretty minimal anyway.

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
I think I'd rather walk....

Think you're Jesus or something?

sovtek

What is the ERU?

Sparks

Originally posted by The Muppet
Their reputation is not the best but if the situation has arisen that they have to take action on a flight you're life expectancy is already pretty minimal anyway.

Exactly - which is why BALPA have been pointing out that airport security is what has to be addressed...

Victor

Originally posted by sovtek
What is the ERU?

The Emergency Response Unit - the Garda's SWAT-type unit. While nominally proficient, it has had quite a few embarrassing moments, including inappropriate fatalities.

Sand

While nominally proficient, it has had quite a few embarrassing moments, including inappropriate fatalities.

Abbeylara? That was only politically inappropriate from what I saw - TDs trying to win votes at the Gardais expense.

If you want to protect against hijackings, step up airport security - once the hijacker gets on board, you've lost.

So, having a marshal on board gives you at least an outside chance of rescuing the situation - especially given how crap airport security is.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Abbeylara? That was only politically inappropriate from what I saw - TDs trying to win votes at the Gardais expense.

Not just Abbeylara, a lot more than that. And the opinions on Abbeylara tend to be leaning towards the decision to shoot was right, but it should never have got that far.

Athy. Guns handed out like candy, five injured (one self inflicted), one dead, no shots fired by robbers.

Abbeyleix. ERU member killed by one of his own team.

Sparks

Originally posted by Sand
Abbeylara? That was only politically inappropriate from what I saw - TDs trying to win votes at the Gardais expense.

Well, they did have to shoot once he came out the door - but :
1) It should never have gotten that far and did so only through gardai incompetence.
2) He wasn't shot once, but multiple times by multiple shooters. That's not a professional responce, that's a bunch of people getting scared and panicing. Not good when they're the armed response unit....

Now, take one of these not-quite-so-hot-shots and put them on an airliner in a hijacking. Would you feel safe?

So, having a marshal on board gives you at least an outside chance of rescuing the situation - especially given how crap airport security is.

If airport security is crap, you improve it. You don't put an armed ERU cop on the plane.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
So, having a marshal on board gives you at least an outside chance of rescuing the situation - especially given how crap airport security is.

Would the man hours be better spent on the ground or in the air? Most opinions point to on the ground.

Originally posted by Sparks
2) He wasn't shot once, but multiple times by multiple shooters. That's not a professional responce, that's a bunch of people getting scared and panicing.

Off-topic, but potentially two people made the same decision and carried out the standard practive of firing a double shot (in case of missing the target, dud ammunition or a "dry" shot).

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
[Off-topic, but potentially two people made the same decision and carried out the standard practive of firing a double shot (in case of missing the target, dud ammunition or a "dry" shot).

I seem to remember it being five shooters though, not two...

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
I seem to remember it being five shooters though, not two...

Sorry, forgot that bit, there are questions about a fifth shot, not a fifth shooter. Initial reports only mentions four shots.

Hmmm, perhaps the should spend some more on the ground security alright.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/03/07/story137261.html

Raiders use vents to bypass Dublin Airport security
07/03/2004 - 12:21:08 pm

Dublin Airport is believed to be reviewing its security after raiders sneaked past customs by crawling through the ventilation system.

Two raiders used the vent to try to smuggle cigarettes past customs three weeks ago.

In a similar attempt five weeks earlier, a burglar used the vents to escape with a sack full of cigarettes.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Sand

So, having a marshal on board gives you at least an outside chance of rescuing the situation - especially given how crap airport security is.

The problem isn't if there is a terrorist on board (you are pretty screwed anyways), the problem is when there isn't a terrorist on board.

I have read some pretty scary stories about the Air Marshals in the States panicking when someone is late sitting down or simply looks at them the wrong way. They jump up screaming and start throwing people to the floor. Anyone moves or panicks themselves then the sh*t hits the fan. No one knows they are air marshels so it is only a matter of time before an innocent brave passanger thinks the plane is being hi-jacked by the Air Marshals and goes for one, probably getting shot in the process.

It is a recipe for disaster, and I would not be surprised if in the next ten years there are more fatalities cause by Air Police than prevented by them.

ArphaRima

Air Marshalls are the cheapest option available. That is all. Its a money question to those making the decisions. Obviously increasing funding to the airport security systems and staff budget will not be chosen if you can pay a few guys 40,000 a year to sit on a flight across the atlantic every now and again.

Guns should not be on board. period. Its introducing a new risk into the normal day-to-day operations of an aircraft.

Nuttzz

it wont be the ERU though, they will be US Sky Marshalls. The US wont trust their security in the air to anyone but themselves, can see the boys in blue armed on flights, dont they mostly use Uzi's anyway, not exactly the weapon of choice on a plane!

Sparks

Originally posted by Nuttzz
it wont be the ERU though, they will be US Sky Marshalls. The US wont trust their security in the air to anyone but themselves, can see the boys in blue armed on flights, dont they mostly use Uzi's anyway, not exactly the weapon of choice on a plane!

So Aer Lingus transatlantic flights will have US Sky Marshalls on board?
Hmmmm.

And the ERU use Taurus pistols too. (They're a brazilian 9mm that looks like the Beretta 92, the "standard" 9mm pistol.).
In fact, one of the dodgier tales of the ERU involves an ERU training exercise when one ERU officer pointed one of these pistols at another officer in jest and deliberately pulled the trigger. He apparently thought that because the pistol was loaded with blanks that it'd be fine.
Anyone else remember what happened to Brandon Lee? You guessed it, the poor ERU sap on the receiving end of the joke got serious shrapnel wounds in the leg from brass fragments in the blank round and needed medical attention.

Now this was meant to be a trained professional doing this, don't forget. Hundreds of thousands of euro have been sunk into ERU training over the years, and that's the result?

Like I said, put ERU sky marshalls on the plane and I'd rather walk.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Nuttzz
it wont be the ERU though, they will be US Sky Marshalls. The US wont trust their security in the air to anyone but themselves, can see the boys in blue armed on flights, dont they mostly use Uzi's anyway, not exactly the weapon of choice on a plane!

Eh, ever heard of a gunshop?

Seriosly though, are you thinking of special branch? From what I've seen/heard of the ERU, they use fairly standard Heckler&Koch MP5s and handguns. There's nothing to stop them using a specific weapon to match the environment.

As for ERU or US Sky Marshals I think there'sa little confusion here. I understood it to be a case of US Sky Marshals on US flights to/from Ireland. The ERU would only be posted on Irish carriers, am I right?

bonkey

Originally posted by therecklessone
As for ERU or US Sky Marshals I think there'sa little confusion here. I understood it to be a case of US Sky Marshals on US flights to/from Ireland.

Yeah. The article referenced mentions US sky marshals.

I'm trying to figure out how you translate, abbreviate, or otherwise interpret that to mean "members of an Irish SWAT-style police unit placed in a air-marshal role on flights to the US", but I'm obviously missing something.

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
Yeah. The article referenced mentions US sky marshals.
I'm trying to figure out how you translate, abbreviate, or otherwise interpret that to mean "members of an Irish SWAT-style police unit placed in a air-marshal role on flights to the US", but I'm obviously missing something.

I'm assuming that since the US is demanding sky marshalls on all flights coming into the US from other countries that they'd expect Aer Lingus/Ryanair flights to do the same. And since those are Irish carriers, I'm further assuming that it'd be Irish security personnel. Now that's two assumptions, yes, but I think they're reasonably logical ones, no?

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
I'm assuming that since the US is demanding sky marshalls on all flights coming into the US from other countries that they'd expect Aer Lingus/Ryanair flights to do the same.

Well, for a start, Ryanair don't do transatlantic, but thats a small issue

Mainly, I would read a different meaning to the article. At present, it is illegal to carry a gun on a plane which is in Ireland. Therefore, even if you have a US carrier flying Ireland/US, they cannot legally put armed marhsals on the plane.

To me, all the article says is that the Irish government are willing to make an exception in the law in order to permit the existence of marshalls on the flights. It does not say that they are willing to provide Irish air marshalls on Irish-owned flights which is flying to the US.

And since those are Irish carriers, I'm further assuming that it'd be Irish security personnel. Now that's two assumptions, yes, but I think they're reasonably logical ones, no?

I'm not sure....

There isn't a single carrier mentioned in the article - it simply says that an exemption to the ban on firearms is likely to be given if the US want marshalls on the flights.

There is nothing in the article indicating that the Irish government is willing, or even considering supplying marshals. In fact, the quoted source seems to have specifically avoided suggesting anything like that....there was just a confirmation that the Irish government would probably allow the existence of armed marshals.

From the language, it seemed to be strongly couched in the "if you want 'em, we'll let you, but we ain't offering to supply 'em" tone to me.

Lets not forget that the Irish government would be required to give the same permission as the article mentions for any non-Irish carriers flying the Irish/US trip. Again, the permission sought would be necessary for these flights, even if the Irish government categorically said "no Irish marshals on any flight, going anywhere, ever".

So, the article is clearly validly interpretable regardless of whether or not the Irish govt. supports the notion of supplying Irish security on Irish flights.

So I would have to question why you feel it is reasonable and logical to interpret it to somethign it is not saying, rather than taking the more obvious "it means exactly what it says" interpretation which is perfectly valid.

You are then assuming that should this happen, that a specific branch of our police-force would be the chosen group, despite there being absolutely no reference to them and their having little/no relevant training. And not only that, but you seem to be of the opinion that they wouldn't actually get any proper training relevant to the job, because your criticism seems to be based on non-related areas where they've received training of a different nature, by - presumably - different trainers.

So all in all, I don't think your assumptions are logical, no. I think they're reading far more into the article than was said, despite there being a "non-interprative" way of reading the article (i.e. if you read it to mean what it says, rather than what it could be suggesting, there are no inconsistencies).

At teh very least, if I was taking your line I'd be couching all of the expressed disgust/concern about the ERU and our government with a qualifier saying "if I interpret this correctly"....but personally I still think you're reading far more into it than was intended.

jc

Nuttzz

Originally posted by therecklessone
Eh, ever heard of a gunshop?

Seriosly though, are you thinking of special branch? From what I've seen/heard of the ERU, they use fairly standard Heckler&Koch MP5s and handguns. There's nothing to stop them using a specific weapon to match the environment.

As for ERU or US Sky Marshals I think there'sa little confusion here. I understood it to be a case of US Sky Marshals on US flights to/from Ireland. The ERU would only be posted on Irish carriers, am I right?

Where can I buy an MP5 & a couple of handguns in Ireland!!!! I'll take 3!

Are the ERU trained to take a plane over, I was under the impression that it was the Army's Ranger Wing that did the counter terrorism on a plane type stuff. (see http://www.military.ie/army/arw_roles.htm ) cant see these guys going air marshall stuff

Typedef

In defence of the ERU.

You try putting on a bullet proof vest and confronting some nut job with a gun, where in a country like Ireland, if he has gone to the bother of getting a gun, said nut-job is many, many more times likely to use it, then in countries where guns are freely available.

Credit where credit is due, those guys put themselves into potentially 'extremely' hostile environments, for no good reason, where said guys, could quite easily have a desk job, selling bathroom accessories, to oversexed bored housewives.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Nuttzz
Where can I buy an MP5 & a couple of handguns in Ireland!!!! I'll take 3!

Are the ERU trained to take a plane over, I was under the impression that it was the Army's Ranger Wing that did the counter terrorism on a plane type stuff. (see http://www.military.ie/army/arw_roles.htm ) cant see these guys going air marshall stuff

ERU acting as sky marshalls would basically be glorified security guards on a plane (which will most likely not be happening anyway)

ARW's role in counter-terrorism would be in the type of situation where a hijacked plane landed here (or their presence was requested by another country), ie. eliminate hijackers/rescue hostages

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Yeah. The article referenced mentions US sky marshals. I'm trying to figure out how you translate, abbreviate, or otherwise interpret that to mean "members of an Irish SWAT-style police unit placed in a air-marshal role on flights to the US", but I'm obviously missing something.

The discussion all along (over the alst few months) has been that the register nation supply the marshalls.