Policing Smoking Ban

Ph3n0m

Since what I posted got lost in another thread, I put the following question to everyone - smokers and non smokers alike


How will the ban, which comes into effect on March 29th - be policed in such places like pubs?

seamus

I'll tell smoking friends to stop. That's a good start.

busman

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
How will the ban, which comes into effect on March 29th - be policed in such places like pubs?

My method would be if i see somebody smoking to ask them polity

Will you put that fu@kin fag out or do you want me to stick it up your @rse!

I'm sure that will work ;-)

gazzer

what about telling people on buses to stop smoking... it is still going on. i wouldnt be brave enough to go to the back of the bus and tell some scanger to stop. But when this ban comes in will it mean that passangers can sue Dublin Bus if the drivers dont enforce the no smoking policy??

Ph3n0m

so non smokers will resort to abusive language and violence - yeah that will work real fine

Villain

Theres not much you can do, and the police aren't inforcing it so alkl you can do is ring the number they will give out and sit and week for a week for the halth board inspectors to turn and then hope the guy or gal is still smoking;)

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by busman
My method would be if i see somebody smoking to ask them polity

Will you put that fu@kin fag out or do you want me to stick it up your @rse!

I'm sure that will work ;-)

Then I'll kindly put my smoke out in your eye! See! It's all going to work just fine.

alienhead

if its a pub, who evers in charge behind the bar. if its a club and there's bouncers they should enforce it. it shouldn't have to come to it, but of course it will.

Villain

Originally posted by alienhead
if its a pub, who evers in charge behind the bar. if its a club and there's bouncers they should enforce it. it shouldn't have to come to it, but of course it will.

Thats bol lox, they have to be doing it's not there fault the Government couldn't be bothered to police it correctly

alienhead

what about airplanes, do the government police the no smoking ban on them? no, the cabin crew do.

i understand that a pub would be tougher to police, why not just get some security staff in, they can pay em with the money they make from over priced drink.

Originally posted by irish1
Thats bol lox, they have to be doing it's not there fault the Government couldn't be bothered to police it correctly

Villain

Originally posted by alienhead
what about airplanes, do the government police the no smoking ban on them? no, the cabin crew do.

i understand that a pub would be tougher to police, why not just get some security staff in, they can pay em with the money they make from over priced drink.

I don't see too many 70 - 80 years getting on planes every night of the week do u?

alienhead

i dont see your point

Originally posted by irish1
I don't see too many 70 - 80 years getting on planes every night of the week do u?

hedgetrimmer

It will have to be policed by the publicans, and Minister Martin has lost so much face over this, and stuck to his guns so strongly, that he will have to ensure it is policed. The worst case scenario for him would be after all the bad press to then have the law become inneffectual.

I think to more rural you get though, the more logistically difficult it will be to enforce it, and the more it strikes me as being a publicans choice. I would certainly say that any complaints about breaches (and there will be some), will be pretty hastily followed up.

And the end of the day, the Dept. of Health will need some form of statistics proving that the legislation has been effective.

Villain

Originally posted by alienhead
i dont see your point

My point is people are comparing this to the bans on Airplanes cinema's etc but it's not a fair comparison.

alienhead

i agree, its a bigger hurdle, but generally its the same thing.

Originally posted by irish1
My point is people are comparing this to the bans on Airplanes cinema's etc but it's not a fair comparison.

Villain

Originally posted by alienhead
i agree, its a bigger hurdle, but generally its the same thing.

A lot bigger so it needs proper inforcing i.e. not the Health Board

alienhead

do you know who's liable, is it the smoker or the pub that gets fined?

Originally posted by irish1
A lot bigger so it needs proper inforcing i.e. not the Health Board

seamus

Originally posted by irish1
A lot bigger so it needs proper inforcing i.e. not the Health Board

Gardai who come into a pub and find someone smoking have the same powers. And Gardai do go into pubs. Isolde's Tower and 4 Dame Lane were fined recently for having people in after hours.

People should police themselves. Although it might sound ridiculous to some, the Gardai can't be 'policing' everywhere all the time. You have a duty as a citizen to uphold the law and discourage or report others who break it.
It's typical of the "I don't see the Gardai around, so it's ok" or "Everybody else is doing it, so it must be ok" attitude of this country.

Someone else came up with the exact argument - if a guy walked into a pub with a bag of cans, popped one up on the counter and began slurping away, he'd be out on his ear. What's so different about this? There's illegal activity taking place in a man's pub, he has the right to eject that person from his pub.

Villain

Garda don't come into the pubs too enough in my local town, oh unless there staying till 3 or 4 in the morning getting drunk and then drive home.;)

alienhead

thats a fair point, how about smoke detectors? seriouslly, i've head they are gonna install these on dublin buses, its the whole embarasment factor.

Originally posted by seamus
Gardai who come into a pub and find someone smoking have the same powers. And Gardai do go into pubs. Isolde's Tower and 4 Dame Lane were fined recently for having people in after hours.

People should police themselves. Although it might sound ridiculous to some, the Gardai can't be 'policing' everywhere all the time. You have a duty as a citizen to uphold the law and discourage or report others who break it.
It's typical of the "I don't see the Gardai around, so it's ok" or "Everybody else is doing it, so it must be ok" attitude of this country.

Someone else came up with the exact argument - if a guy walked into a pub with a bag of cans, popped one up on the counter and began slurping away, he'd be out on his ear. What's so different about this? There's illegal activity taking place in a man's pub, he has the right to eject that person from his pub.

Ste.phen

Nobody's ever considered blasting someone with a fire extinguisher, no?

"No your honour, i thought he was on fire, i mean he couldn't have been smoking, it was a pub!"

alienhead

desperate measures..............

but if you think about it, there really should be smoke detectors in pubs/clubs anyway, from a safety point of view. say you're in a club, and you're downstairs, and there was a fire on ground or upper level, you wouldnt find out about it til it was too late, i'm sure we've all thougt about this.

come to think of it, they must be the only indoor facilities with large croweds without em.

as for fire extinguishing somone with a cigarrette, thats dumb, the idea is to alert the staff and joe public to the offender, and the cause of the high pitched racket.

pubs would be a noisy place indeed, still, if that what it takes.

Originally posted by Igy
Nobody's ever considered blasting someone with a fire extinguisher, no?

"No your honour, i thought he was on fire, i mean he couldn't have been smoking, it was a pub!"

Doctor J

Ever asked a tracksuited scumbag on the back of a bus to stop smoking? Embarassment isn't a factor. So howsabout a drunk tracksuited scumbag in a pub? Is a flashing red light and a neon arrow pointing at them going to stop them. I can't see it meself :dunno:

alienhead

you're right, but i dont go to pubs with tracksuit knackers, do you?

Originally posted by Doctor J
Ever asked a tracksuited scumbag on the back of a bus to stop smoking? Embarassment isn't a factor. So howsabout a drunk tracksuited scumbag in a pub? Is a flashing red light and a neon arrow pointing at them going to stop them. I can't see it meself :dunno:

leeroybrown

The big issue with this ban is that the onus is on a publican when doing so will not have a positive effect on profits.

I'm not a big fan of publicans as they in general get rich of an overpriced product (especially non-alcoholic ones) but the possibility of having fines imposed on them in situations where they may not even be aware that smoking is going on (a lot of people would rather ring the complaint number than point the probem out to staff). It's easy to clamp down on underage drinking purely by ID'ing. Most publicans keep very good control over alcohol being smuggled in but you still see quite a bit of it in many places. Someone lighting a fag in a quiet dark corner of a pub or club on the other hand ...

Maybe in the future we'll see Smoke Inspectors ;-)

Doctor J

Generally, I've given up going to pubs at all, but I'm sure there are pubs somewhere beligerant wankyrs will frequent and it's unfair to expect the staff or other punters to enforce the law on those who disregard the law with spite and who hold respect for no-one.

Villain

Originally posted by Doctor J
Generally, I've given up going to pubs at all, but I'm sure there are pubs somewhere beligerant wankyrs will frequent and it's unfair to expect the staff or other punters to enforce the law on those who disregard the law with spite and who hold respect for no-one.

Well said, if the minister was serious about this he would have had it policed properly

kiffer

I fully intend to carry a water pistol and a can of fart gass.
if my hair/clothes are going to stink of your smoke then I'm going make dámn sure yours do ...
man that's going to start a lot of fights.

but really non-smokers out number smokers ...
more people have said that they'll now go to pubs more often, than have said they'd go less often...

I cant wait for the smoking ban...
If people I know are smoking I will have no problem asking them to go outside.
people I dont know ... well thats another question ... I'll point them out to the staff and see what happens ... If nothing happens the thing to do then is report them ... the bar will get fined and after that happens every few nights it's just cheaper to not let people smoke ...

as for bouncers ... I dont think they'll have any bother kicking smokers out ...

staff: please sir, you cannt smoke ...
smoker: Fook orf!
staff: ehh ok...
bouncer: get your coat and leave now.
smoker: why, I did'nt do nothing.
bouncer: you where abusive to staff ...

no need to kick him out for smoking.

Doctor J

I know plenty of pubs without the 'luxury' of bouncers, especially outside Dublin. Much as I agree the ban is overdue, it is ill concieved and is being implemented in a half assed fashion. It is unnecessarily going to make life a lot harder for bar-staff (not eveyone is a bar owner making big money remember).

Ph3n0m

So in essence, having read all the replies - no one has any idea on how this will be policed effectively then

Police going into a pub - yeah I am sure that will work especially when other more serious crimes are happening outside of the pubs

Reporting people to staff - it has been said publicans are greedy bastards, so why do they care about smokers - they are in their pub, spending money and giving it all to the publican - at the end of the day that is all the publican cares about

Reporting people yourself - all well and good , if a) the "smoke police" arrived within 5 minutes of a report b) the person in question was still smoking c) you have an honest face

The sad fact of this is, while I am a smoker, I do feel sorry for non smokers as it will prove much tougher to police this ban then anyone expects

Villain

"Enforcement of the ban will be carried out by 40 environmental health officers, assisted by 300 officers involved in food safety and 100 personnel from the Health and Safety Authority"

Source Irish Examiner

IgnatiusJRiley

Originally posted by irish1
I don't see too many 70 - 80 years getting on planes every night of the week do u?

Jeez u never give up on the 70-80 year olds do you? It'll be bloody easy to police them. Not as if the bar man will be in fear of his life or something. And as for it being one of their few pleasures... TOUGH!! One of my pleasures is living and I don't want to lose out on that just cause some poor aul fella thinks he has some god-given right to smoke!!!

Villain

Originally posted by IgnatiusJRiley
Jeez u never give up on the 70-80 year olds do you? It'll be bloody easy to police them. Not as if the bar man will be in fear of his life or something. And as for it being one of their few pleasures... TOUGH!! One of my pleasures is living and I don't want to lose out on that just cause some poor aul fella thinks he has some god-given right to smoke!!!

No I know too many of them;) .

Look I know that we have the right to drink in a smoke free atmosphere, but this thread is about Policing it and the Government have made a **** up of that

MrPinK

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
Reporting people to staff - it has been said publicans are greedy bastards, so why do they care about smokers - they are in their pub, spending money and giving it all to the publican - at the end of the day that is all the publican cares about

They will care about being fined. If someone reports a smoker to the staff and they don't do anything to try stop them, then that person will probably then report the publican for not attempting to enforce the ban.

Villain

Originally posted by MrPinK
They will care about being fined. If someone reports a smoker to the staff and they don't do anything to try stop them, then that person will probably then report the publican for not attempting to enforce the ban.

They WON'T be fine, only the person smoking!!

alienhead

i cant find any information online about the penelties! for starters they should at least be informing the public of this!! where did you get this info?

a few ad's on the tv to prepare people wouldnt go a miss either, c'mon lads, get the finger out

Originally posted by irish1
They WON'T be fine, only the person smoking!!

Villain

Originally posted by alienhead
i cant find any information online about the penelties! for starters they should at least be informing the public of this!! where did you get this info?

a few ad's on the tv to prepare people wouldnt go a miss either, c'mon lads, get the finger out

Well all the info I have read says the offender will be lioable to fines of up to €3000 doesn't say anything about the owner!

I could be wrong, or it could just be that all the info hasn't been released yet.

MrPinK

I presume they'd be held as accountable as any other employer where there is smoking in the workplace.

Employers will be held accountable for breaches of the regulations. Fines of up to €1,900 may be imposed and/or a custodial sentence of up to 3 months. The regulations are to be enforced by Health and Safety Officers and Environmental Health Officers, however there are difficulties in this regard. However, the Department of Health has been advised that there are too few Officers to implement the smoking ban.

An employer who can show that they made “all reasonable efforts” to ensure compliance with the regulations may use this as a defence where proceedings are initiated against them. Therefore it is clear that employers must put in place detailed policies regarding workplace smoking, which state that breaches of such a policy will result in disciplinary action.

From http://www.hrmaster.com/cgi-bin/client-zone/PPPclientzone/smoking-reg-jan04.htm

I don't think publicans will be fined for having people smoking in their pubs, but I'd say they will be fined for not attempting to enforce the ban.

Villain

Only if their employees are smoking I think,once they ask a customer to stop they have made “all reasonable efforts” , not sure do.

kiffer

just a thought...
the ban is on smoking in the work place ...

we always talk about it as a ban on smoking in pubs
this is not what it is ...
it just so happens that pubs are work places ...

so ... as a customer its not my work place ... I can not smoke because the worker would not have a smoke free workplace ... but can I complain? its not my work place ... ???

alienhead

eh?

Originally posted by kiffer
so ... as a customer its not my work place ... I can not smoke because the worker would not have a smoke free workplace ... but can I complain? its not my work place ... ???

Ste.phen

Originally posted by alienhead
eh?

I think they were implying they'd be allowed smoke because as a customer the pub isnt THEIR workplace.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Igy
I think they were implying they'd be allowed smoke because as a customer the pub isnt THEIR workplace.

I think kiffer was wondering if he has a right to complain about somebody smoking in a pub if he is just a customer there, because the pub is not his workplace.

alienhead

even so, its somones workplace.

Originally posted by maxheadroom
I think kiffer was wondering if he has a right to complain about somebody smoking in a pub if he is just a customer there, because the pub is not his workplace.

BuffyBot

"Enforcement of the ban will be carried out by 40 environmental health officers, assisted by 300 officers involved in food safety and 100 personnel from the Health and Safety Authority"

Ah yes, they'll be highly visible undoubtedly, especially outside office hours....

Villain

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Ah yes, they'll be highly visible undoubtedly, especially outside office hours....

Lol ah but sher if they worked outside office hours they would have to get overtime;)