English distance themselves???

BlitzKrieg

Now this is nothing racists or nationlistic before anyone takes a shot at me


BUT


I go to Uni in England and it sometimes p*sses me off that the general english public distance themselves from the events of Northen Ireland yet expect me because i'm Irish to either be involved in them or an expert on every detail.

Firstly The north is still part of the UK therefore its not just an Irish problem
Secondly It was not just nationlists bombing english cities. There was violence commited to and by all sides.


These are aspects people seem to overlook. I study politics and i was shocked at the lack of knowledge other studants (studying both history and politics) have on the north. The dumbest line being "Why dont they just leave" almost had me choking my fellow studants. What annoys me almost as much is that because i'm irish its assumed and expected that i am an expert on the situation. Yes i do know about the north but telling me to skip the lecture and seminar on it because i had an unfair advantage is a bit stupid.

I have asked if people have ever studied the north in school and the reply was they have studied the "Irish Question" but not the north in detail...(and thats if they continue to do history after Gcse's)


does anyone else feel this is just wrong???

Sleipnir

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
they have studied the "Irish Question"

Would that be the same as the "Jewish problem" from WW2???

bdiddy

I have come across the same problem with some English friends of mine who thought that just because i vote Sinn Fein that i hate England, all English people and support the IRA in every way shape and form. Another thing i couldnt believe is that the letters UDA, UFF and UVF ment nothing to them. They thought i was making it up and had previously thought the IRA were the only paramilitary force in the North.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Villain

Based on past experience the majority of English people have very little knowledge of the northern situation. They only really think of the issue in respect of the Terrorism that was carried out on the UK mainland.

I find the Scottish have more of an Idea of what go's on and very surprised at the level of hate they have for the English.

Villain

Originally posted by daveirl
I'm Irish and I hold that opinion.

Thats a very Ignorant opinion daveirl

Pigman II

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
the "Irish Question"

'Who's round it is?'



In regard to your topic they're probably just trying to make conversation and that is sometimes the first thing that comes into their non-Irish peoples when they think about Ireland. You get a lot of that in America too but it's hardly them trying to pidgeonhole you.

Also I don't think it's fair of you to expect average English people to have some expert insight into the political issues of the north if they don't want to. After all (and I'm probably being to general here but what the hell) if it was up to them they'd probably just cut the north out of the UK altogether and save themselves a lot of bother. From what I can tell the only people who actually want NI in the UK are NI Loyalists - not English people. So let the English care about what they actually want to care about, not what you expect them to care about just because of their role in Irish history.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by irish1
Thats a very Ignorant opinion daveirl

Oh I don't know about that...but that is for another thread, perhaps in Politics

mike65

If I may be so bold as to play "average Englishman in the Streert" We just don't just a damn frankly. Its a problem of history which for decades was left to fester and then explode. The average Englander does'nt feel resposible for the Northern Ieland situation (historically speaking) and now just wants the place to be peaceful and nice 'n fluffy. Just like the majority of Irish.

As for thinking every Irishman must be an expert or a provo thats daft of course but we live in times of expanding ignorance.

Mike.

Villain

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Oh I don't know about that...but that is for another thread, perhaps in Politics

I meant ignornace in way it's meant to be used i.e. a lack of intelligence and I don't mean daveirl's general intelligence.

I just meant you couldn't make a valid argument like that in General you would have to know the person in question.

bonkey

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
does anyone else feel this is just wrong???

I dunno....how well educated is the typical English student concerning Welsh and Scottish history?

jc

dr_manhattan

Well, I dunno: people *are* ignorant - like daveirl. Saying you hate "all english people" is not really a matter for discussion in a politics board or anywhere else, it's just blind ignorant, like saying you hate all irish people or all any people. So I don't know why some irish people feel like they can defend it because "800 years blah blah blah" - it's not a rational viewpoint any more than hating all arabs is.

Sure, I've found english ignorance of the north infuriating, especially given that I was subjected to serious intimidation by london metros on a few occasions. To have people one one hand assault you on the basis of being a terrorist, and on the other hand not even know about the conflict is galling in the extreme.

But the thing is, most irish people have no real idea about complexities of english history either - because essentially the history of the north is the history of Ireland - excluding that, most irish people wouldn't have in depth knowledge of british politics either, to the extent that they couldn't name the past 10 prime ministers.

There have been fierce conflicts in britain in the past century, up to and including the miners strike, which lots of irish people know **** all about - and yes, I realise that ireland was not involved as an entity, but what we are talking about really here is the will to find out about your neighbouring countries. We can say that people *should* take an interest in their country's activities, but the fact is most don't: and railing against the fact that they don't won't really change anything...

It is infuriating though, I understand that, and I've had my share of heated discussions about it - but I think that going to college anywhere abroad is going to be a trying experience, especially coming from a country that's as stereotyped and one dimensional in world news as ireland.

Face it, students are just annoying anyway, LOL - I went to college here, and I wanmted to strangle my fellow students just for breathing, hahahaha.

Moriarty

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Well, I dunno: people *are* ignorant - like daveirl. Saying you hate "all english people" is not really a matter for discussion in a politics board or anywhere else, it's just blind ignorant, like saying you hate all irish people or all any people.

I think he was saying that he also holds the view that anyone who supports Sinn Fein 'hates england, all english people and supports the IRA in every shape and form.' He didnt subscribe to that view himself.

BlitzKrieg

-1st of all these are politics studants now you think if you have a desire to perform in politics in either england or ireland you need to know at least the current situation in the north.

-2nd wha i h8 is the view it is just a moment in history involving just ireland and that england had nothing to do with it anymore cause the ira stopped bombing.

yes i know in ireland the school system cover it in more detail but you think that people should at least know why so and so terrorist group bombed london etc*. I'm not asking them to be experts on irish politics but the opinion that since the cease fire that it doesnt involve england anymore is a bit niave.





* And this could explain alot about why Bush's policy gets accepted...

dr_manhattan

I guess i pretty much agree with what you're saying, but what I was saying was, given the levels of ignorance that everyone displays (and you're spot on, hence sending troops to iraq) regardless of nationality, I'm not surprised:

You could say the same about people in the west: our intelligence services and military have effectively been waging a police action style war against developing interests since colonialism "ended" (ahem). People in the west know **** all about this, nor do they really care - it's a larger scale, more remote ends from each other, but it's damn similar if ya ask me.

And of course, as the specials said, it doesn't make it allright.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
-1st of all these are politics studants now you think if you have a desire to perform in politics in either england or ireland you need to know at least the current situation in the north.

Not really, nobody running for office in England will be elected based on their views on Northern Ireland. Even, for cabinet ministers it is merely an aside.

If Tony Blair came out and stated he wanted to hand back Northern Ireland, I don't think he would lose many votes in England.

Maybe in Scotland or Northern Ireland it wouldn't go down well...But I don't think in England

Walter Ego

Originally posted by irish1
Thats a very Ignorant opinion daveirl

It's my opinion too.
Good men died just so I could say it out loud.
Maybe one day I won't be a sin to be Irish and proud of it.
:ninja:

And no that's not a ninja. It's better than a ninja. It's a Paddy with a spine.

Specky

Speaking as another of them blokes from over the water, the basic situation is people in the UK do not care a hoot about northern ireland. If you asked the average english person to point to belfast on a map they probably couldn't. The prejudice some nationalist people feel towards the english for some of the bad things that went on in the past if wholly unfounded.

...and this is the reason why many english people would feel very agrieved about bombs planted in the uk killing uk citizens by irish republican movements. To take the "war" to england is simply ludicrous because the english people are not even interested in the issue, never mind being involved. One of the big issues of republicanism seems to be "how dare the english come over here and meddle with our country". A reasonably valid response from a person living in england would be "how dare the IRA come over here and blow people up for some reason we know or care nothing about?"

It was not the english people who sent in the troops on bloody sunday. It was not the english people who sanctioned RUC/special branch collusion with loyalist terrorists. It is not the english people who continue to support unionism/loyalism in the north.

Do you think english people identify with unionist/loyalists? Absolutely not, they're a weird curiosity that, again, most english people know nothing about. Sure, they see Ian Paisley on the news now and then and have a good laugh at him ranting on...but it's happening somewhere else so who cares, back to the cricket.

I remember as a kid in Liverpool the Orange Lodge used to march around the place with their bowler hats and sashes and sticks...but I was probably about 18 before anyone ever told me that the Lodge was a protestant organisation. I thought it was just something like the British Legion or something. Poor ignorant me. :rolleyes:

I think the english disinterest is matched though by the ex-pat Irish over interest. I was speaking to an Irish woman in Brussells a few months ago who has lived there for the past 25 years and is likely to remain there for the rest of her life. She was orignally from Kildare and has by her own admission never been to the north of Ireland. She argued fervantly and with much spitting and blathering about how "we" (that's the english people) should get out and give it back to "you" (that's the irish people, of which she considers herself one). I was most perplexed by this odd mix of double attitudes in one who clearly is so enormously disattached from the enture situation, so much so that I had to polish off the remainder of the bottle of Jamesons we were drinking and descend into a deeeeeep sleeeeeeep.....well, it was Brussels, what else are you going to do ??

The Brigadier

And good men died to alllow HIM to voice THAT opinion.

Unfortunatly a great majority of the Sinn Fein supporters I have met have been very anti-english.

Specky

Maybe one day I won't be a sin to be Irish and proud of it.

It never was. Odd that the people complaining most about the intolerance of the past are the ones most obsessed with perpetuating it into the future.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by bdiddy
I have come across the same problem with some English friends of mine who thought that just because i vote Sinn Fein that i hate England, all English people and support the IRA in every way shape and form.

Just out of curiosty WHY do you vote for Sinn Fein?

Walter Ego

I don't trust the English as a nation although individually they are just like you and me.
If we don't remember the past actions of people / nations we are dealing with we leave ourselves open to be used / deceived once more.

I not saying we should live in the past but we should certainly learn from it.

Specky

If we don't remember the past actions of people / nations we are dealing with we leave ourselves open to be used / deceived once more.

So having a chip on your shoulder is a good thing?

dr_manhattan

"It's my opinion too.
Good men died just so I could say it out loud.
Maybe one day I won't be a sin to be Irish and proud of it.

And no that's not a ninja. It's better than a ninja. It's a Paddy with a spine."

One thing I have to say is that irish patriots are one of the most hilarious brands of people in the world. To listen to the above, you'd swear there was some kind of ongoing conflict which needs "paddies with spines"...?

"paddy" is a derogatory term, like ni**er. It seems to me that those who claim to be proud to be irish are actually so obsessed with times when it actually *was* hard being irish that they actually wish for those times again, like they're trapped in some rebel song or something.

And I'd also like to point out that, however much I mistrust the british empire, I mistrust practically every other european country more: however much we suffered under english rule, algeria, indochina, south america and the congo all say we'd have been a hell of a lot worse off under french, spanish or belgian rule, for example.

;-)

nlgbbbblth

Originally posted by James Melody


Unfortunatly a great majority of the Sinn Fein supporters I have met have been very anti-english.

agreed;

nlgbbbblth

overheard conversation

Mr X: "Awful about that young girl murdered in Birmingham"
SF supporter with Celtic top: "F**K her. She was English"

sad but true