Are some people gay just due to conditioning ?

yellum

While I believe that I'm gay due to some genetic/brain chemical thing, I'm not certain every gay man is. I've come across some gay men who find women "icky" and the thought of sex with a woman repulses them. Even the naked form of a woman seems to bother them.

So would you think some men dislike women, find them repulsive and so think that if they don't like women they must like men ?

The attitude of "I'm gay because I don't like women" seems to be used by some "gay" men. So do we have Manchurian Candidate type gay men ?

Surely if people can be brainwashed into killing people they can be brainwashed (unintentionally) to thinking they are gay ?

Atreides

Its a fair point, and if you switch it around often men who are overly discussed by the thought of homosexual relations turn out to be exactly that. I know its going slightly off topic, but sometime the overtly camp can be pressurised into be convinced they are gay simply because of how they dress/carry themselves/talk, with out actually being gay.

dr_manhattan

Bit of a soap box of mine: let me explain

After lots of fooling around as a kid, I worked out that I'm pretty much straight - though many people, gay and straight alike, tell me that because I've been with guys, and have no opposition to being with them in the future, I'm bisexual - I don't feel this is the case, as my attraction to men is very different to the attraction to women: if I were to describe myself as bisexual, i'd feel like an impostor (though I have to admit, saying I'm straight makes me feel that way too sometimes)

Don't get me wrong, these issues don't torture me or even really concern me these days - but I find the question above interesting re: gay by default. So many men, straight and gay, have the wierdest misogynist tendencies, and tend to let them govern their lives, and I find that bizarre...

Anyone ever read Les Feinberg? She documents the history of gender identity in a few books, and I have to say when I first read her stuff, I wanted to open a bookshop in dublin and sell books about sexuality. Among a number of great insights, she digs up a huge amount of truths about gender versus sexuality, for example languages of ancient cultures which recognise three, five and even twelve sexes, completely distinct from each other.

She reckons that the industrialised drive for labour and efficiency was what started a drive to force us into two separate, easily turned against each other sexes, just men and women. She points to the frequency of children born with ambiguous genitalia, as well as those who feel transgendered as a matter of nature, as well as homosexuals, as a complete contadiction to the idea of "has penis = male" and "has vagina = female"

Now, her socialist roots mean that she readily identifies europe and roman law / capitalism with the downfall of a free, indigenous, romanticised society - and I find that a bit hard to take. but in principle, I fully agree with her: and I think the books make hugely convincing reading.

Either way, what i'm trying to say is, that "gay by conditioning" is the tip of an iceberg. I have a gut feeling that "male by conditioning" is just as valid an idea, and that we have let absolutism coud the issues of who we are and who we want to ****.

Recalling the fact that EVERY controlling institution EVER has always known that if you can control people's sexuality and libido, you can utterly control their development, I think that gender and sexual identity is one of the most ignored and yet crucial parts of what needs to be looked at in terms of creating a truly free society at any level.

And btw, nice sig, yellum.

yellum

So Dr M , where can one buy these books ? Any book in particular you'd recommend ?

BTW: Nice username.

dr_manhattan

Unfortunately, nowhere I've been in Ireland: but a really good primer is "transgender warriors" by les herself:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807079413/qid=1076597829//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-7628296-5202224?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

also, if you search under "leslie feinberg" in amazon, you'll get a really good cross section of writing, as les is a bit of a celebrity in the US. Tbh, I am often amazed that such incredibly developed people live is such a puritan, wierd society as the US, but they do:

basically, some friends of mine from the states are involved in pretty hardcore projects which help people get out of the sex industry and find their feet: this connects with a lot of gender workshops and stuff, and one time a good friend brought me to a shop in the east village called "toys in babeland" (www.babeland.com)

- a sex shop that's also a book shop? A sex shop run by women? A sex shop free of sad, pervy, ashamed people and full of happy straight, bi, gay, trans, you name it couples and threeways? I'll have a copy of that, that, and that, and that, oh and a pack of this, and a tube of that...

it blew my fragile mind, haha (okay it didn't, it just was a ray of sunshine) - and gave me reading material for weeks (as well as some top class paraphenelia, hahaha)

So yeah, great people, sorry for the side issue - that's where I found the most books.

Anyone fancy starting a bookshop/resource centre?

;-)

the_syco

Straight due to conditioning?

Some men only "find" that they're gay when they leave post-primary school, as its more or less drilled into to you that boys go with girls, and not each other.

Some just "know", but keep it under wraps during school (so they don't get bullied).

EVERYONE used to only like blondes.
The "not like that big-boobed, long-legged bimbo? You must be gay" thing was really sad, as I prefer brunettes.

Maybe it's the same with some gay's. They're told to think this way, but they still like the other.

boomdogman

I used to believe I was the only gay person in the world because where and when I grew up no one talked about that kndof thing(dirty dirty dirty). Boy did i get a surprise.

There are so many cultural/sexual areas we seem to know bugger all about.

I wanted to rub my dick of Tarzan/Johnny Weismuller when I was 4 so the condioning must have started early! (still think he was sex on a stick!)