Private Sector wont pay for DTT in Ireland

BrianD

I note from today's Irish Times that a consultants report has indicated that the private sector is unwilling to pay for the development of a DTT infrastructure. In short, the Government will have to fund it possibly through RTE.

This effectively hands Irish digital TV over to Sky, NTL and Chorus with Sky becoming the dominant player in rural Ireland. I note that none of the deflector system operators have shown no interest in taking their operations to a higher level though most operators are no more than amateur electronics enthusiasts. Would NTL not jump at the chance of moving to DTT instead of expensive upgrades of their cable systems?

BTW what ever happened to South Coast Community TV?

ShaneOC

South Coast are still broadcasting BBC1, BBC2, ITV1 Wales and Channel 4. I have not heard anything regarding their move to digital for quite some time.

watty

This is not new news, and why DTT roll out is now nearly SEVEN YEARS behind original plan.

NTL are only even rolling out Digital Cable and Digital MMDS because Comreg is twisting arm and threatning loss of francise/license otherwise. They have no money nor interest in DTT.

Chorus have "most" of the MMDS. UHF DTT is a "direct competitor" in a sense to Digital MMDs.

Also Digital MMDS is viable almost as Pay TV competitor to Sky (120 Channels when Analog MMDS is turned off).

The UK couldn't run a 29 channel PAY TV system. At least 8 channels maybe 10 would have to be Free to Air DTT. leaving possibly less than 20 channels as DTT pay TV.

No-one could compete with Digital Cable/MMDS/Sky with only 20 channels or less.

It is cheaper to BUY a satellite (and even Sky doesn't OWN any satellites, it rents channel space) than to build a DTT infrastructure for 95% of Ireland. Even to go to 98% would be horribly more expensive.

Even the electricity to run a DTT transmitter network probabily exceeds cost of feeding MMDS, Cable and Satellite altogether to Ireland.


I bet RTE would LOVE to turn off the analog VHF and UHF TV network and tell people to get MMDS, Cable or Satellite! (They woulld save MILLIONS).


This report confirms what I have suspected for about 5 years. Unless a political decesion is made to have DTT and basically 100% state fund the setup and running costs it won't ever happen.


It would make more sense actually (and cheaper):
1) Issue IRISH FTV cards for the Irish channels on Sky. These should not need Sky Family pack.
2) Take all MMDS off NTL and Chorus and then
a) Switch off the horrid analog MMDS
b) Increase channels to 120
c) Let RTE, Chorus and NTL rent trannsponder space
d) Have all the Irish channels and BBC NI channels Free
e) Leaves space for 50 free radio
f) Space for several new Digital only Free Irish Channels
g) This leaves still about 90 Pay TV channels for NTL / Chorus in their respective areas. A viable size for PAY TV to compete with Sky.

Buy a box for Free To Air for €100
Or get it free (but yours to keep) with a Chorus/NTL sub

MMDS aerial / Dish is €60 to buy retail, so if you have no MMDS dish a €100 install is needed or DIY for €100. Chrous/NTL can do this free if you sign for premium pack.
##

Promlems solved!

Mike 1972

FTA satellite is the best route in the long term although there is a case for a freeview system as not everyone can put up a dish MMDS coverage is brutal and niether sysem is particularly suited to portable sets.

I can actually see MMDS getting scrapped and a partial freeview service (with not all the six available multiplexes getting used) beng implemented (this wouldnt cost that much as DTT transmitters use far less electricity than Analouge UHF ones) Multiplex 1 would carry the four existing Irish terrestrials and an RTE news channel. Mux 2 would carry the five UK terrestrials Mux 3 (and possibly 4) would have BBC3/4/ITV2/UK history/Discovery and some UK radio services. 5 and 6 would be given to deflectors

watty

Originally posted by Mike 1972
...niether sysem is particularly suited to portable sets.

I can actually see MMDS getting scrapped and a partial freeview service (with not all the six available multiplexes getting used) beng implemented (this wouldnt cost that much as DTT transmitters use far less electricity than Analouge UHF ones)....

The transmitters are expensive

The electricity bill is only lower than Analog if the power is too low for set-top aerials or portables, i.e. not much better than MMDS.

There are no portable DTT TVs.

UHF DTT has not enough channels to allow (digital) MMDS to be scrapped.

Analog MMDS will be scrapped.

Mike 1972

Analog MMDS will be scrapped.

The electricity bill is only lower than Analog if the power is too low for set-top aerials or portables, i.e. not much better than MMDS.

The Irish DTT frequency plan envisaged mostly 50Kw transmitters utliising 8K (rather than 2K) COFDM this will give "portable" grade reception across most of the Country

There are no portable DTT TVs.

yet

UHF DTT has not enough channels to allow (digital) MMDS to be scrapped

The MMDS band has only 23 (8MHz) channels UHF has 46 (admitidely not all of them can be used until Analouge it turned off)
The MMDS band will have even fewer channels when the ODTR reallocate a large chunk of it to satellite and 3G phones

watty

Originally posted by Mike 1972
Analog MMDS will be scrapped.

The The MMDS band has only 23 (8MHz) channels UHF has 46 (admitidely not all of them can be used until Analouge it turned off)
The MMDS band will have even fewer channels when the ODTR reallocate a large chunk of it to satellite and 3G phones

No the UHF band has only 5 or six USEABLE channels in any area due to co-channel interference.

The analog MMDS has 11 per area. Digital MMDS can support 120 channels (60 channels when analog still running)

UHF can only support 28 .. 30 Digital, maybe less due to NI services, or 60 to 65 when analog turned off.

Digital UHF DTT is about 10,000 times the setup cost of adding new irish channels to Satellite and about 1000 times the running cost of Satellite.


UHF DTT is a non-starter for pay TV, too high a setup and no revenue due to too few channels. Unless it is directly funded by Government it won't happen.

MMDS is a horrid system. The Analog on it should never have been allowed and spec was wrong. But the network now exists and I beleive that almost all of Chorus MMDS is now digital compatible. Chorus could pahse out analog and double Digital channels in about 2 month period (They won't unless forced to).

The Comreg reallocation of MMDS space may never happen. 3G utilisation is unlikely.

The proposed power here is much more than UK (hence more coslty to run). It does not give portable grade reception. In fact the existing Analog UHF is MUCH poorer than UK with a very small proportion of population able to use indoor aerial for a decent picture. Shops in Limerick selling pocket tvs warn "may require fixed aerial installation!"

Mike 1972

No the UHF band has only 5 or six USEABLE channels in any area due to co-channel interference.

Once the analouge stuff goes co-channel will no longer be an issue. In fact many countries plan to use single frequency networks on UHF

As you rightly say MMDS is a horrible system and in most parts of the country isint even profitable. I suspect Chorus and NTL regard it as more trouble than its worth and only for COMREGS insistance on maintaining it would be delighted to be rid of it

lawhec

Originally posted by LurkingIcon
No the UHF band has only 5 or six USEABLE channels in any area due to co-channel interference.

This I'm sure is of some news to viewers in Derry who don't seem to have too many problems receiving 10 analogue TV channels.

The idea of Ireland using a main terrestial broadcast system in the 2.4GHz range contary to the rest of Europe on UHF would be a huge mistake as it would end up with a non standard system compared to its main trading partners. Ireland is too small of a country to have such a system in place cheaply for consumers. After the analogue switch-off, it is in theroy possible for a UHF 8K DTT network in Ireland to have a 60 + channel system if national SFNs are used for most multiplexes.

As for the power used, compare an analogue UHF service which has a maximum power output for vision at 500kW and a digital multiplex with an erp of 50kW. The analogue service will only peak at 500kW at times and on average will probably run at an average of 40-60kW. Hoever it must remember that the multiplex can carry more than one channel depending on configuration used, thus all analogue channels currently broadcast in Ireland could be put on one Multiplex using a rugged QAM with excellent picture quality, cutting electricity costs for the transmitter site.

Mike 1972

This I'm sure is of some news to viewers in Derry who don't seem to have too many problems receiving 10 analogue TV channels

Or those along the Antrim coast who can get 12 analogue channels (NI and Scottish vrsions of BBC1 2 and ITV along with the 4 Irish channels and Channels 4/5) plus 6 digital multiplexes

Mossy Monk

19 channels go to my tv through 2 aerials

2 of them are dodgy and 1 comes in clearly on high pressure days

watty

Originally posted by Mossy Monk
19 channels go to my tv through 2 aerials

2 of them are dodgy and 1 comes in clearly on high pressure days

Which is why the network can't support More channels.

I can pick up about 20 or so UHF channels. Also you need a few spare channels for home gadgets.

Add one extra channel and then I would be getting 25 channels.

Add two and I would be getting 30 channels... The risk of co-channel interference rises.

I agree the "best" techincal solution is:

* All the Irish Channels FTV card on Satellite NOW.
* The proposed RTE News24 funded and on Satellite FTA NOW. (probabily could be on air in a week on Sky if anybody wrote a cheque)
* A 30 channel UHF Digital Decently powered network (And I think the Irish system as proposed is miles better than what UK has)
* The Irish channels FREE on Analog cable, with better channel spacing and no Band1, only Band III, no Hyperband
* All cable to have at least 90 Digital channels + all terrestrial as Must Carry

* Close both Digital and Analog MMDS. NOW: no-one with MMDS can't be better off with Sky Digital.
* Close all deflectors. NOW. Not when DTT is started as is current policy.
* Close all VHF analog TV NOW
* A 5 year program encourage / subsidise Digital changeover before switch off analog UHF, then have 60 channels DTT.


But the point I'm making is that it won't be down to best techincal choices or what makes sense re; Europe, but the usual political unreality and lack of will by Gov to spend any money.

No-one else will spend money, because there is no way to make money out of DTT.

NTL, yes has no enthusism for MMDS, but Chorus has actually closed (with OTDR/Comreg permission) some cable systems and replaced with MMDS. Not just isolated placed like Tipp Town, but bits of North Dublin and Limerick City that could easily be cabled.

watty

Originally posted by Northern Correspondent
The idea of Ireland using a main terrestial broadcast system in the 2.4GHz range contary to the rest of Europe on UHF would be a huge mistake as it would end up with a non standard system compared to its main trading partners. Ireland is too small of a country to have such a system in place cheaply for consumers. .

With a suitable downconvertor (MMDS ALWAYS uses a Downconvertor= simple LNB really) to UHF, the Digital MMDS can actually use a UK box, or Swedish/Spanish box depending on what is transmitted.

The Irish propsed DTT can't use (Many some or ALL? --Unknown) UK DTT boxes. I think the Swedish/Spanish boxes are compatible.

The Sagem box does not "run" on MMDS signal either.


Unfortunately for consumers there is not exactly a single DTT standard, though there was meant to be.

All Digital MMDS and UHF Terrestrial ought to use COFDM modulation (Not the QPSK on satellite or the plain QAM on cable).

Three standards to take account of noise/medium/propogation:
DVB-s
DVB-t
DVB-c
AS Satellite, Terrestrial and Cable have differing characteristics:

* DVB-s No need for Multipath or coherent single frequency Inference protection, but wide band white noise.
* DVB-t Special characteristic allows multipath reception to actually enhance the signal demodulated, thousands of carriers per data stream give single frequency interference immunity
* DVB-c Like 56K Modem or ISDN or Broadband "modem" modulation, no multipath and fairly low noise.

But Terrestiral varies on how a return path is done (phone or slow shared Wireless LAN type technique) and encryption (if any) and QAM per carrier and 2K or 8k carriers etc and many other paramenters. Some newer receivers can do a wide range of COFDM parameters, But QPSK, "ordinary" QAM and COFDM all require a different chip set in the receiver. The actual band is not an issue a Convertor can be in front of the "aerial" connector, as is the case always with MMDS and Satellite.

Over 80 countries have some form of Digital MMDS. Some use "Cable" type QAM and some use CODFM. Some even use the Metropolitan WAN version of Wireless Networking (related but not same as 802.11 WiFi). All DVB (Satellite, Cable, UHF, MMDS uses the SAME "broadcast" IP packet scheme (i.e. MPEG over TCP/IP) as you might even use to stream video on a PC network. Every set-top decoder has an IP address (They can all be the same on most systems as there are never return IP packets, the receiver "network" interface only listens like a "hackers" IP sniffer).

lawhec

The Irish propsed DTT can't use (Many some or ALL? --Unknown) UK DTT boxes. I think the Swedish/Spanish boxes are compatible.

All UK DTT set top receivers made since the collaspe of ITV/On Digital are compatible with the 8K transmission mode. There has been confusion about the old ITV/ON Digital bozes as to how they would cope with 8K transmissions - one report stated that over 50% of them wouldn't cope, another said only early Phillips and Nokia Mediamaster boxes would be rendered uselsss.

All Digital MMDS and UHF Terrestrial ought to use COFDM modulation (Not the QPSK on satellite or the plain QAM on cable).

There is a private broadcaster in Moscow which transmits DTT on QPSK 8K for portable reception in limos. The only downside is the bitrate limit then created, but even at 7.5mbps, this is still enough to carry two channels with a good quality picture.

QPSK is part of the dvb-t standard therefore any set top or intergrated receiver which does not allow for this does not conform to DVB standards.

Some newer receivers can do a wide range of COFDM parameters, But QPSK, "ordinary" QAM and COFDM all require a different chip set in the receiver.

All ITV Digital set top boxes have been able to cope with the 16QAM transmission standard very well, the only problems arise with trying to measure signal quality through the menus in some boxes. The early Grundig FTA boxes were not able to receive 16QAM multiplexes, a problem that was cured with a software upgrade.

watty

Originally posted by Northern Correspondent
QPSK is part of the dvb-t standard therefore any set top or intergrated receiver which does not allow for this does not conform to DVB standards.

QPSK = QAM 4
QPSK 8K is NOT satellite QPSK (it uses 1 carrier). 2K, 8K etc is the number of carriers (2048, 8192 etc) used in CODFM or OFDM transmission.

Yes DVB-t allows QAM= 4 which is QPSK. But this is not Satellite QPSK or cable QAM. The overall modulation needs a different chip set.

There is slightly more to DTT than 2K, 8K, 16K and QAM= 4, 16, 32 , 64 etc. I'm skeptical as to if a UK box would work on Irish DTT as orignally proposed. Certianally the Trial Transmissions from Three Rock (and amazingly from a VHF TX too) were alleged to be incompatible and Swedish/Spanish boxes alleged to work.

BTW I heard Spanish system also "collapsed", though wheter in UK "ITV Digital" sense or "Irish Trials never going to release" I don't know.

Meanwhile those in Range with big pole and big array of UK DTT are in Lunk and the rest of use have to make do with FTA Satellite for Digital with NO Irish TV, other than the badly named "Sky News Eire" bulitain proposed.

I ain't paying Sky €28 a month on top of my TV licence to get the Irish TV in Digital. So Analog it is for now for Irish TV with me, even though I have 3 Digital receivers (Digibox, High end PC card and nice Palcom DSL4) and 2 analog Sat Receivers (better than UHF analog TV on many channels).

And there are always DVDs to watch too.

lawhec

There is slightly more to DTT than 2K, 8K, 16K and QAM= 4, 16, 32 , 64 etc. I'm skeptical as to if a UK box would work on Irish DTT as orignally proposed. Certianally the Trial Transmissions from Three Rock (and amazingly from a VHF TX too) were alleged to be incompatible and Swedish/Spanish boxes alleged to work.

At the time of the Three Rock DTT tests ONDigital was going strong, and no DTT set top boxes in the UK were available for general purchase outside of the ONDigital loop. It could be that the test UK box was an ONDigital version that was not 8K compatible.

Virtually all set top boxes now sold for DTT in the UK are now 8K compatible - it will either show it in their set up menu (like there is for my Thomson) or it will state this in the manual.

My view has always been to make sure that any DTT set top box is 8K compatible to ensure that it can receive RTE transmissions from Truskmore if & when they start appearing.

watty

No UK box implements the "back" RF channel. Which would make Email and Interactive work via aerial (It isn't fast enough for web browsing though as the "back channel" bandwidth is shared among EVERY viewer on the transmitter.

Well *IF* Irish DTT ever starts I will be *VERY* interested to see which boxes work on it, esp. PC DTT cards (not WinTV analog) as this gives Direct MPEG recording etc like with the Digital Satellite PCI cards.