Is this wrong???

flogen

Ok, I need to put this out for an opinion, and to vent abit too! *its abit long too*

My dad is an alcoholic. He has been for many years now. Im almost 19, and i have a bro and sis, 23 and 26 respectivly.
For many years my mam dealt with his problem in a way she felt best, she kept it from us. She didnt want us to grow up with fights etc and she didnt want to leave him because she still loved (and loves) him.
Anyway, afew years ago, I started to realise the way my dad acted wasnt normal. Until then I thought that going to the pub every night was normal, and when he went on a binge and we were told he was sick, i swallowed it. Now that i know the truth, i feel like i was missing a neon sign, but I was a kid, and 'my dad has a problem' is not the first thing you think of at that age.
Once we all knew, and it was out in the open (in the house anyway), we confronted my dad about it. my mam didnt have to worry about hiding it, and she hoped that being asked to get help by your 2 children would make him see the light(which makes sense).
It seemed to work for a while, and there was no binges, but my dad is stubborn and refused to stop drinking 100%. Now I know that if you have an addiction you cannot expect to continue consuming and and solve the problem.
So for the last few years now he has been on and off, binging for a week, getting picked up and acting like nothing happened, making promises and then starting all again, which made me angry. I know he has a problem, but he has the support of his whole family, and still he wont stop drinking, wouldnt get help and kept lying.

One binge was quite bad, and when my mam tried to stop him drinking he left the house and we heard nothing from him for a week. I remember that during those days there were reports of a body being washed up on a beach, and my mam was worried sick it was his. Now this is where my problem lies. I wasnt. I imagined he was dead, and it didnt bother me. I almost felt as though Id prefer it like that.
Anyway, it wasnt him, and since then he has gone to councilling etc and things seemed to get better (although he never stopped drinking).
That is until lately when he went on a binge again. this time my mam understands that she has, over the years, done everything she could to help him, but he doesnt want to stop, so she tried to get on with her usual routine while he drank. She has also stopped covering for him, and as such most of his family now know etc.
The thing is, I dont think I want him to snap out of this. maybe its because in the past he has, and afew weeks later hed be back to it again, making you feel let down after getting your hopes up.
I would also like to point out that I was never that close to my dad. I used to think it was my fault. Hes into soccer, but i never was, so it was my fault i didnt make the link. I know now that its up to the father to make a bond from an early age, and my interests make no difference to our relationship. in effect, Id say I never really had a "Dad" in the father-figure sense... more a male parent who provided money etc but nothing more.
I wont go into details to why he binges(this is long enough, and besides, there is no reason, wel none that he's told us), but I really dont feel any connection to him at all. Infact I hope Im nothing like him, and dispise it when people say 'god you look like your father' (i dont really, its just that he had long hair when he was younger, and so do i).

I just need someone to help me work this out. Is it right that I feel so negative towards him? I know we were never close, and hes let me down in the past on many occasions, but still... I think that I'd prefer the relief of him being dead than to worry about whats going to happen next (or worse, how my mam is coping with it all), or id prefer for him to kill himself with drink than stop now and continue in a month after promising us the moon.
I know Im starting to sound like a Nu-Metal song, sorry about that! But is it wrong for me to be so un-comfortable around him, and for me to wish he was dead rather than here drinking all the time?

Thanks

Flogen
*just to add, as far as a trigger for binges, its always happy occasions that set them off. e.g. my 18th b/day, my mams 50th b/day AND 25th Wedding Ann., Christmas, my sister moving out to her first house etc. He was even so in-considerate as to go on one not long after my granda (mams dad) died. She had enough to worry about, obviously, but its gotten to the point where all fun times are filled with worry as to when he'l start up again.

D!ve^Bomb!

well u shouldn't feel bad about feelin like this, i reckon alot of people feel like this towards their father, me included,, now i woudn't go as far to say i wish he was dead, but i never had a close relationship with him, then when my parents split up when i was 12 i grew further apart, now i seem him on average twice a year(he lives 15mins drive away),, but to b pefectly honest, it doesn't bother me when i dont see him, i could go for years without seein him and probably wouldn't think twice bout it, wot i'm tryin to say is, get on with ur own life, ya cant go about every day thinkin of other people, your da wont give up drink all together till he wants to..

all ya can look after is number one, yourself:D

I can only speak from my personal opinion but I would DEFINITELY care if he(my dad) died. And I sincerely doubt(and hope) that the only reason why Flogen would not care if his Dad died would be that subconsciously this is all a big burden on him, therefore when he thought that his father might have died he saw it as a burden being lifted, rather than as a person he loved dieing.

Just a thought...

Victor

You are not responsible for someone else's lifestyle or problems if you did not cause them. And you didn't.

Agent Smith

Originally posted by utility_
I can only speak from my personal opinion but I would DEFINITELY care if he(my dad) died. And I sincerely doubt(and hope) that the only reason why Flogen would not care if his Dad died would be that subconsciously this is all a big burden on him, therefore when he thought that his father might have died he saw it as a burden being lifted, rather than as a person he loved dieing.

Just a thought...

so you can be a caring person.......



wow



fair dues dude

flogen

I guess utility is right, I wouldnt say that I wish he was dead, but I cant imagine myself being amazingly upset if he did die. I guess i would feel like that because i wouldnt have to worry about what was going to happen next, what state we would find him in, or what state he was going to drive my mam to.

I dont know what relationship you have with your father, utility, but Ive never been close to mine, and its not like a close friend or loved one dying, at times he may as well be a lodger in my house (at least thats how it feels).
I suspect I would feel abit upset (i know that Im always regretting my lack of a father figure, even though its not my fault, and if he died i would never get the chance to have that again), but its hard to when it feels as though everything he does seems to be an attempt at making people unhappy, drawing attention away from fun times to himself and his self-pity.

In the most current of binges my mam has been trying to coax him from drinking but without forcing him, letting him choose for himself, but I have felt no compulsion to help him at all, because when we have in the past its jsut started again a month later.... i think im tired of being let down so Ive given up and am trying to ignore it

Flogen

Beruthiel

but I have felt no compulsion to help him at all, because when we have in the past its jsut started again a month later....

tbh this is a perfectly normal reaction.
while you continue to facilitate an alcoholic they will never change.
My only real connection with an alcoholic is my uncle, who basically ruined his own life and with it made the lives of his wife and 5 children a miserable existence. They were forever trying to help him to no avail – it was only after 22 years of marriage, when she at last could take no more and she threw him out – it was the best thing to ever happen to him, he had to take care of himself then, and he did – he has been off the drink now for 2 years
it’s a very conflicting feeling to love your dad and hate what he has done to your life, I see my cousins and what effect it has had on each one of them – one of the girls seems to pick nothing but losers who drink too much and they never seem to treat her right, two of the lads are turning into alcos themselves – it’s very sad

look out for number one here flogen, there is nothing you can do for your dad at this stage if he is not willing to help himself. He has a terrible disease which only he can do something about. Perhaps, like my uncle, he needs a short, sharp shock to snap him into the cold light of day

dudara

Your description of your father and your feelings towards your father sound somewhat like a friend of mine experiences. His dad isn't as bad as yours but definitely does have some problems with drink. He's been banned from driving due to drink, found driving under the influence while banned and then banned some more. He drinks every day, but only in the evening and is normally an intelligent and articulate man. Happy events also trigger bad incidents, and I consider his wife to be a saint for putting up with him.

My friends feelings towards his dad are similar to yours. Sometimes I think that he wouldn't care if his dad passed on in the morning, even though I know that's not quite true. But he has had enough of his dads selfish behaviour, and is somewhat cross at him for making his mother endure what she has.

You can't help someone who drinks like that, they need far more serious help. And you're only human for getting fed up with his behaviour. Family bonds will only go so far and they can be broken. Just realise that you had nothing to do with his problem.

qwertyphobia

Living in a family where someone suffers from alcholism particlar over such a long while is going to have a huge effect on everyone else in the family.

There is a two groups which maybe helpfull for you and your family

One is called called Al-Anon which is for friends and family of alcholics

The Other is ACOA which stands for Adult Childern Of Alcholics

I think you will find very similar stories and feelings to the ones you mentioned in both groups, particularly in ACOA Contact details for your nearest groups of ACOA can be got from ACOA Ireland, Po Box 4683, Dublin 1

Al-Anon can be contacted at 01 8732699 (and they would also probably know about the ACOA meetings

Hyzepher

Believe me, no matter how you feel towards your father, if he did die you will wish that he hadn't. IIt is very easy to think of death as a solution to a problem without realising that your dad wouldn't be around anymore - most people think of death in a sterile way and forget to think past it and how it effects them.

I wonder is your dad working? Sometimes when good things happen to others- especially in the family - your dad maybe thinking of his own life and how he has failed - thus looking to drink for comfort. Strange how it may seem a good way of helping your dad would be to talk to him about how much you love him and how proud you are - even if it is difficult. You will always remember stories of your youth then you had one or two good moments with him. Talk to him about these and tell him you wish there were more like them. It is odd but the bond between a parent and their children can do wonderful things.

Forget trying to lecture him into finding help - only he can make this choice for himself. All you can do is be supportive and show him that hteir are things outside of drink.

For your own point of view you must realise that alcoholism can effect people in many different ways, fir the smallest of reasons. These reasons are mainly inward and are caused by your dad's opinion of himself etc. Try to raise this opinion and things will change.

Hyzepher

BuffyBot

I guess utility is right, I wouldnt say that I wish he was dead, but I cant imagine myself being amazingly upset if he did die. I guess i would feel like that because i wouldnt have to worry about what was going to happen next, what state we would find him in, or what state he was going to drive my mam to.

Hmm. You know, it's exactly how I felt. Then my dad died.

My dad was a gambling addict, squandered every bit of cash my family had and my mother had to beg, borrow and steal to keep the family going. And suffered for it every single day. It broke the family eventually. She still loved him though, but I hated him for what he had done. Over the years things got better, but we never really got on - apart from the earlier stuff, there was other stuff between us.

Still, now that he's gone, I'm sad. Not devastated, or even upset - just sad, because there is a piece missing. Couldn't tell you why. I'm not sure I even want to know why. It's just the way it is. utility_ is wrong. utility_ is speaking out of his hole as I doubt he knows what he's taking about.

If it happened to you tomorrow, I suspect you would feel quite similar to me.

Originally posted by BuffyBot
utility_ is wrong. utility_ is speaking out of his hole as I doubt he knows what he's taking about.

You basically said exactly what I said u fúcking spa.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by utility_
Insert reply here...

Ermm. Indeed. Good comeback etc.

Perhaps I need to be a bit clearer. I was objecting to your comment about burdens being lifted which I don't think is nessecarily correct. Things are a bit more complicated by the sound of flogen's post.

Even though he basically agreed with what I said?

You are some moron...

As if you know better than the person who actually has the problem...

Beruthiel

Originally posted by utility_
You basically said exactly what I said u fúcking spa.

utility_
banned for a week
B

Walls

Hello to the original Poster

Your Dad has suffered under an addiction that is famous for twisting and corrupting the normal family bonds. He's been a figure more familar to you for his absence then his presence or impact in your life. While a lot of families aren't close, his absence is due to his drinking rather than any lack of closeness on anyone's part. This creates a daily underground stress in the house. Someone very close to everyone is there but not there, due to something external to the household. You can't allow him true intimacy with you, but you can't just mentally disregard him either.

His drinking is or has been enabled and covered up by his wife, which is not to say she did the wrong thing. She did what she had to to put you and your siblings first, a decision that had its consquences on you all. For one, it meant you all saw him daily thinking about his addiction. That means you all saw him daily removing himself from the house.

You say that your Mum has realised that she is unable to control your Dad and has stopped covering for him. This means that he is now without the safety net of her protection and it might impact on him. It has impacted on you, in that you now see how far your Dad's condition has taken him away from you.

Instead of a feeling of loss you feel numb and disinterested. It is a lie of the times that bonds once made can never be broken. Instead there is a need for never taking them for granted. Your Dad did just that, and now there is little in the way of shared experiences, memories or even just company to bond the pair of you. The fact that you feel little or nothing for him is therefore understandable, almost to be expected. The only other option your Dad has left you is much more dangerous, and that is rage.

I think I would advise you to have a chat with someone who has experienced that same lack of control over a family member and to get their viewpoint. There is a risk in this type of situation to repeat what we see and that is something to be avoided. You can't control your Dad, you can't even predict your reaction to him, but you can see that you don't act out his own behavior (and it doesn't need drink to do this). But I would say that your numbness is a reaction to him that is on foot of his own behavior, and so very easy to understand.

flogen

it is all well and good to say bonds can be broken, but as i said before, they never existed IMO (maybe before i can remember, I was told he used to play with me alot as a yougn child, but I wouldnt remember)

As for repeating his actions, i see your point, and its something that Im consious of, and probably will always be (hopefully not as a burden that is). the fact that i never saw his problem up-front as a child means I was never under the impresssion that it was ok (i assume that if a young child sees a parent and supposed guardian doing something afew times, or even once, it would seem normal to the child). I have my mother to thank for this, and am grateful for what she did. she felt it was the right thing todo, and she did so at a great emotional strain.
As for my anger, that is just the passing feelings you get when something winds you up something else... Im not a violent person, quite the opposite, and so I dont see myself heading that way. However, there is no guarentee for any of us that something like that will become of us in years to come, i doubt many *aholics plan to abuse their chosen substance to dangerous levels.

thank you for your look on the matter, it is good to see outside perspectives, especially people who arent even biased by personally knowing me...:)

Flogen

liz2000

just thought id give u my 2cent worth, i really do sympathise with u on this one, personally i know that alcohollism is a really selfish disease which is chronic , it dosent reverse baack to normal drinkin at any stage and the only cure is total abstinence. i know that for sure, i completely gave it up, i did it for myself and my daughter and my family in total., i was stessing them out so much, sometimes now i want a drink but remind myself of where it always takes me, to hell usually,
your dad is responsible for taking the first drink, thats his decision but after the first one the alcoholic losses all control and i know thats really hard to imagine for non alkies but its true, he has to just stay away total abstinance, its already taken too much from him and from those around him, you have the right to feel the way u do and i think its great that u are sooo honest about this problem, happy situations do trigger drinkin as they are social events whcih typically involve relaxing and lettin loose, its your dads decsion to abstain from the first drink because as he probably knows after that first one there is no more freedom , just slavery to an unseen force which reeks havock to all including himslef, id say he is a very lonely person but the help is there and the choice is his, there is great support in AA and in rehab programs, until then u just keep goin with ur own life and try not to feel gulity ,
hope this has helped u somewhat
liz

flogen

thanks liz, it did help indeed,
We have always stressed abstinance is the answer, but until now he has felt that he could handle what was termed 'controlled drinking'. as you pointed out, there is no control when an alcoholic drinks, that liberty is lost.
As a positive update, btw, he has just come out of his latest binge, and for the first time has admitted he was an alcoholic (he had before said he had a problem, but dodged the actual term). He also recognised that he cannot limit his drink, and knows that he has to stop 100%, and wants to. I know there is still alot to do, but this is a good sign, i just hope it can be followed through (although, and forgive my negative attitude, Im not getting my hopes up as this has just made it worse in the past).
I am pretty sure that I will never be close to my dad, i think at my age Im too old to start a relationship that should have started when I was born and carried on until now (this is very difficult and awkward as Ive said). However I would be happy if he stopped and the family could normalise itself (somewhat at least). I know that after so many years my mother needs a break from all the stress and strain, and that afew more years of it on the rest of us can only be a bad thing.

p.s. Liz, congratulations on your achievement. Although I have never been directly in your situation, I am sure it was not easy, but you managed to break through the selfishness that drinking causes and do the right thing for your sake and your families.
Flogen

loismustdie

Hyzepher - post on the what do you know about the last poster thing on after hours cos your sig is deadly

sorry -

it's understandable to feel negative but you have to try remember that alcoholism is an ilness and your dad didn't do anything to intentionally hurt you, most of all he ahs hurt himself. you should really try to deal with your feelings by other means than boards becasue you have to take care of serious issues that deserve attention that you won't get from a pi forum probably as it's obviously affected your life as can be expected

liz2000

well flogen, im glad that my advise helped somewhat, i think its great that ur dad has taken the first step and admitted it to himself and others, this is often the most difficult one to do, it took me years, anyway of course you dont want to get ur hopes up and it is always a possibility that he will relapse, its very hard on ur own, he has to develop other inteerests, this board became one of mine, he cant expect to put on the father role after all this time, it will take time to develop a relationship with u all again but maybe he realy has made the first step, anyway i do hope he keeps it up for himself and all of u, best of luck,
i dont think there is anything worng with posting on this forum for advise at all,
lizz

ColinM

Originally posted by Beruthiel
utility_
banned for a week
B

That seems very wrong to me. Buffybot just waded in, probably didn't read what utility wrote, but expected him to have said something uncaring or unhelpful and so dismissed whatever it was that he wrote as being wrong while basically taking a similar stance to him. I think utility was quite justified in calling him a spa.

I was expecting to see an apology from buffybot to utility. I was surprised to see you felt it was appropriate to give utility a week's ban.

Beruthiel

thank you for assistance on the moderating there ColinM
perhaps I should have put up an announcement to explain that Buffy and Skanger have been banned for a week also

next time PM me with your concerns
B