Any freedoms left?

Treora

After half a winter of current affairs and issue programming I am wondering how many freedoms we have left. I mean true freedoms without censure. I understand that the little ones have to be protected from themselves and everyone else, but once you can vote one would think that self-determination exists. It appears that an aged governance plus a stagnant society & intelligencia cause morals to recede up the back door until eyes water and throats gag. Unfortunately you can find that the younger a stable state is the less laws and fears it has and the more hopes and constitutional rights it has. Has anyone a list of freedoms we have lost since 1921 or even how many we have now or will have once an E.U. constitution comes?

Capt'n Midnight

Well in 1921 there was the death penalty
and lots of personal freedoms have been granted reluctantly by the Govt because of EU leglislation.

davros

I'm not seeing the connection with scepticism. Sounds more like Politics or Humanities, would you not agree?

Treora

Mayby it should be in politics, but I am sceptical that the Irish have not any real rights left and those that we do have will be gone before you can say boo, which of course you will no longer be to say.

While the rights themselves appear to remain, national interpretations and implimentation of EU law has put so many conditions on the rights that the initial purpose of them are detached from their practical application. Speech, movement, possession of property, presumption of innocence...

How many people realise the the U.S. embassy's political attaché regularly attents the Dáil to check on "U.S. dissenters" whether on economic, rights or security issues.

davros

It's a good topic but it will get a much better response over in Politics.

BuffyBot

Perhaps you might enlighten us as to what freedoms you think we've lost?

uaobrien

Originally posted by Treora
After half a winter of current affairs and issue programming I am wondering how many freedoms we have left. I mean true freedoms without censure. I understand that the little ones have to be protected from themselves and everyone else, but once you can vote one would think that self-determination exists. It appears that an aged governance plus a stagnant society & intelligencia cause morals to recede up the back door until eyes water and throats gag. Unfortunately you can find that the younger a stable state is the less laws and fears it has and the more hopes and constitutional rights it has. Has anyone a list of freedoms we have lost since 1921 or even how many we have now or will have once an E.U. constitution comes?

We have the freedom to leave our country if we're so upset at the loss of our other freedoms.

Freedom of Speech
Freedom of Religion
Freedom to congregate
Freedom to bear arms ... oh wait, no that's that other place.
Freedom to choose whether we want to live or die (as opposed to countries like Somalia, Rwanda, Liberia etc. where someone will choose for you with their firearm)

I don't mean to be snotty, but don't confuse the current political screw up we're enduring in this country, with some impeachment to our freedoms as citizens, there are far worse places to be.

I'll be the first to rip our countries village idiots (read politicians) apart for the choices they make, but they have not stood on our rights. And if you're seriously dissatisfied with the status quo, you can always exercise one last freedom at the appropriate time which we still retain - Freedom to vote and express your opinion that way. You helped choose the govt.

In ancient Greece they had a word for someone who avoided engaging in political life - idiot. If you think you can do a better job, involve yourself. Don't let others make decisions you can do better on.

Hehehehe, I'm the (so-far) 1 vote for yes, can you tell.

Personal opinion, we're as free as we ever were. Cryptic statement i know, but theres not a whole lot to be said.

Dependent on the types of freedoms you might be refering to, we may have lost some. But at the end of the Day we have the Freedom to Leave ireland should we totally disagree with Irish policies. For me that is Freedom. The right to choose where i live. I'm not getting kicked out of my own country, but i reserve the right to choose my own future.

Sparks

Perhaps those thinking they have unassailable rights left would care to discuss the matter with some gardai without legal witnesses? Or perhaps they'd like to vote on the issue (as many times as necessary to get the right answer)? Or they could call someone to talk about it (if you don't mind having the record of that call made accessable to whomever in the gardai deem appropriate for the next few years)? Just be sure not to irk the FBI, given their recriprocal arrangements regarding arrest warrants...
:rolleyes:

uaobrien

Originally posted by Sparks
Perhaps those thinking they have unassailable rights left would care to discuss the matter with some gardai without legal witnesses? Or perhaps they'd like to vote on the issue (as many times as necessary to get the right answer)? Or they could call someone to talk about it (if you don't mind having the record of that call made accessable to whomever in the gardai deem appropriate for the next few years)? Just be sure not to irk the FBI, given their recriprocal arrangements regarding arrest warrants...
:rolleyes:

Well at least you left out the Illuminati, the Council On Foreign Relations, and the Project for a New American Century. I thought you might have at least mentioned ECHELON and the N.S.A. though.

Camille

Hmmm

The more enmeshed in the EU we become, the more "freedom" we lose as an independent nation.

uaobrien

Originally posted by Camille
Hmmm

The more enmeshed in the EU we become, the more "freedom" we lose as an independent nation.

You know, I'm sure the state representatives were thinking something similar when they attended both the U.S. Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention in the 1770s and 80s.

I seriously can't understand why people bitch and moan about something they voted for. If you voted for the Nice treaty and EMU and continued membership of the EU then you're at fault for whatever happened since.

If you claim you didn't know all this was going to happen and you were uninformed, you should have voted no.

IF you voted no, then I'm sorry but that's the way democratic referendums work, the majority vote carries. If you don't like it, be more vociferous next time, preferably before people go to vote.

The only sure bulwark of continuing liberty is a government strong enough to protect the interests of the people, and a people strong enough and well enough informed to maintain its sovereign control over the government.

-- Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Camille

Who's bitching and moaning? Just a point of fact.

uaobrien

Originally posted by Camille
Who's bitching and moaning? Just a point of fact.

Sorry if I made it sound personal. I've read similar viewpoints in other threads. I believe we are responsible for the actions of the officials we elected.

If people believe they have been cheated out of freedoms then I believe they're neglecting accountabilty for their actions.

There is a quote which I think is appropriate though, I can't remember the person who said it:

No one can take that which is freely given

Like it or not we are reaping the decisions and elected officials we supported over the last decade or 2. We may not have had much say in them or maybe we had a say in all of them, dependant on our respective ages. However to cry about it now is akin to closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Again, apologies if you thought my comments were directed solely at your statement alone.

Victor

Originally posted by Treora
How many people realise the the U.S. embassy's political attaché regularly attents the Dáil to check on "U.S. dissenters" whether on economic, rights or security issues.

But he could check the Dáil website for the transcripts and not bother travelling.

Sparks

Originally posted by uaobrien
IF you voted no, then I'm sorry but that's the way democratic referendums work, the majority vote carries. If you don't like it, be more vociferous next time, preferably before people go to vote.

Erm, I voted no. Twice. In two seperate so-called "binding" referenda. Fact is, we just don't have the level of control over our government that we need to have. And so we complain and protest and so forth.

uaobrien

Originally posted by Sparks
Erm, I voted no. Twice. In two seperate so-called "binding" referenda. Fact is, we just don't have the level of control over our government that we need to have. And so we complain and protest and so forth.

Thank you for pointing out my gaff. Referenda, not referendums. I rest on my laurels, a more educated man.

sceptre

Originally posted by uaobrien
Thank you for pointing out my gaff. Referenda, not referendums. I rest on my laurels, a more educated man.

(off topic)

OED recommends "referendums" over "referenda"

uaobrien

Originally posted by sceptre
(off topic)

OED recommends "referendums" over "referenda"

I owe you one

(/off topic)

Dasilva94

There's been a large widening of our freedoms compared to the dark days of the eighties. In the areas of contraception, divorce, the freedom to vote on EU treaties thanks to the Crotty descision, freedom of access to information on abortion after the overturning of the SPUC case, the rescinding of section 31, greater freedom from having the local parish priest as an undisputed moral authority, and don't forget the freedom to buy Playboy