"fifth cheapest out of 14 European countries"?

Ripwave

According to David McRedmond, oreillycom will soon have the "fifth cheapest out of 14 European countries" basic DSL offerings.

Can anyone come up with a list of the 10 countries that are more expensive?

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, and only counting offerings from the incumbent telecoms provider, can we come up with a list to prove him wrong?

BT's basic offering is £29.99, which is more expensive than eircoms proposed €40.

Belgacoms basic service costs €30.37 (Weird number, but that's what it says on their webpage). That's juts internet access. It's €39.54 if you want "Skynet", which appears to provide 3 POP addresses and 50MB of webspace. No doubt McRedmond wants to compare their offering to that, but he's out of luck - oreillycom will be 46c more expensive :-).

Does anyone have a link to the equivalent offering from the incumbent in each of the other EU countries?

Ripwave

France Telecoms basic offering seems to be €29.90 if you sign up for 24 months, or €34.90 for 12 months.

So far, that's 2 that are cheaper than oreillycom. We only need 2 more to make a liar out of McRedmond. Any takers?

pickarooney

KPN (Netherlands) has three packages:

1024/320 for €34.95
2048/320 for €52.00
4096/640 for €88.00

Ripwave

Originally posted by pickarooney
KPN (Netherlands) has three packages:

1024/320 for €34.95
2048/320 for €52.00
4096/640 for €88.00

How's your Dutch? Is speed the only difference between the "Lite" and "Basic" offerings?

So far the incumbent telecom companies in Belgium, France and the Netherlands are cheaper than oreillycoms proposed offering. I can find lots of cheap DSL on Spanish websites, but I don't know who'd be considered the equivalent of oreillycom. Any suggestions?

bizmark

According to a german i know the only differnce is the speed

but he cant be sure

Töpher

Damn you and your editing!!! I was about to have me some fun!!

carrotcake

germany's t-dsl

T-Online dsl 5000 MB
768/128
5gb cap
1.59c per mb thereafter
€24.95 per month


btw, since you're only including incumbent operators this would surely make it a dsl-only affair?

bizmark

i had to add that

i could ask a dutch guy i know but hes not online :rolleyes: as far as i know he has that basic service

Ripwave

Originally posted by carrotcake
[btw, since you're only including incumbent operators this would surely make it a dsl-only affair?

? I don't understand?

I suggested incumbents only because they probably represent a "worst case scenario" - you will always find operators with cheaper products than the incumbent, but the incumbent is still the "default" choice of Sean Citizen who just goes with whoever is most familiar.

If we can find more than 4 "worst case" providers that demonstrate that Mr McRedmond was being "economical with the truth" (again), it'll be worth contacting all the usual suspects with a list of what DSL really costs in other EU countries, so that McRedmond won't be able to get away with misleading the public.

Dasilva94

I guess France Telecom are the French incumbent:
http://www.agence.francetelecom.com/vf/navs/frame.php?fh=5&fg=5&cf=A/vf/internet_multimedia/extense/index.shtml

They have 512k at €29.90

pickarooney

It's not that straightforward in Holland. KPN isn't an ISP in itself, so those are only their "don't pay more than this" prices. They have several partners, such as Planet Internet and xs4all who basically divvy up the ADSL connections between them, and give KPN about 50% of what the customer pays, in competition against the cable providers (who also provide a telephone service).
Looking at the individual offers, the prices quoted are misleading, as the average is closer to €50 for XS4ALL and Planet Internet. Actually, I'm not sure where KPN pulled those figures from, unless they just mean how much they get from the customer
I'll check it out, maybe give them a ring.

Ripwave

Can anyone speak Spanish?

(I think Telefonica is the incumbent in Spain?)

pickarooney

I can't open the pricelist page in Opera. The main page opens but everything after that is blank.
Telefonica is the Eircom of Spain though, if that's any help.

Capt'n Midnight

Wouldn't it be simplier to find European countries that are dearer and work out how many countries are left over.

"How much do you want to spend ?"
http://point.tiscali.it/Adsl/quantovuoispendere/
Solo 36,95 € al mese senza costi aggiuntivi 256/128
can't find any mention of a cap.

http://point.tiscali.it/adsl/prodotti/mega/
With the goverment grant of €75 - you get 6 months free. - €12.75 per month but you have to pay 5c per mb after that.

Note: if you pay €56,95 per month you get 640/128 and a minimum of 64/32 (can't do that on 48:1)

Now do they also offer this service in the Vatican and San Marino ?

[edit]
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/build/3xfaster.html?code=ZZ-NL-11GK
€15.99 per month.. 150Kb - can anyone confirm speed and T&C for the eircom offering ?

http://www.tiscali.com/where/index.html
I'm sure they have other offers in these other countries too.

BTW: The grand duchy of little fenwick would probably be cheaper too.

PhoenixRising

Am I missing something here ?

Eircom have announced that they intend (pending approval from Comreg) to reduce their monthly charge to €40, a reduction of €14 for eircom customers and a wholesale price reduction of €4. Is that not a good thing ? Even if you're not an eircom customer, you should still see a decrease in your broadband charges once these changes take place.

I'm an eircom BB customer, and with the new charges my annual BB costs will decrease by almost €170. I think this is a positive move, yet a lot of people on these boards seem intent to talk it down or try to find holes in it, apparently due to some blinding hatred of eircom.

I know eircom are not perfect, far from it indeed, but it's still a move in the right direction, isn't it ?

Spunog UIE

mmmm shouldn't the cost of line rental be included. Rip off.

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Gideon
mmmm shouldn't the cost of line rental be included. Rip off.

mmmm no! As the vast majority of households will have a phone line anyway with or without broadband (some people actually use the line for making phonecalls ), the cost to Joe Public of signing up for broadband is as Eircom or any other ISP quotes it.

The cost of line rental is a separate issue.

bdiddy

up Eircom. I reckon they're learnin. wont be long till broadband is feasible.

bizmark

ok talked to the dutch guy and he says the Lite package has a 20gig limit the rest are unlimited

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by PhoenixRising
I think this is a positive move, yet a lot of people on these boards seem intent to talk it down or try to find holes in it, apparently due to some blinding hatred of eircom.

I know eircom are not perfect, far from it indeed, but it's still a move in the right direction, isn't it ?

No it's just stalling - they know they will have to open up to competition and in the meantime they are extracting the maximum amout they can with minimum investment. Also keeps comreg and the politicians happy - "look what we've achieved - irish BB costs have nearly dropped as much as they have in other countries" By comparison NTL were offering BB at €20 per month in parts of Dublin - that's less than you pay for the Line rental...

RE: cost of line rental being a separate issue - the sooner ESB or NTL offer voice over their copper the better.

PhoenixRising

I take your point Capt'n, but still fail to see how it is anything other than a move in the right direction. Are you saying that you don't welcome this move ?

BigEejit

Personally I think this is a ploy to put pressure on the WISP's before they start getting a foot in the door ..... but even so, I hope that the WISP's have enough headroom to undercut and still make a (small) profit .....

When I have a choice of WISP's I'll be adding the cost of line rental and broadband together and comparing that with the monthly cost of a WISP service plus 5 euro for ready to go call credit.... of course there are other considerations like caps and up/down speeds .. but I hope I'll be using a WISP by the end of the year

Which ever way you look at its a win for the customers.

Ripwave

Originally posted by PhoenixRising
Am I missing something here ?

Apparently. Do you find it acceptable that the public voice of any company should be allowed tell bare faced lies and get away with it?

I'm an eircom BB customer, and with the new charges my annual BB costs will decrease by almost €170.

Don't bank on it. From what I hear, oreillycom are planning to give you a "free upgrade", whether you want it or not, and keep charging you €54.45.

Of course, you obviously don't care about the money, or you wouldn't have gone with oreillycom in the first place!

I think this is a positive move, yet a lot of people on these boards seem intent to talk it down or try to find holes in it, apparently due to some blinding hatred of eircom.

"cheaper broadband" would indeed be a positive move. But this new pricing will still be more expensive than the prices currently available! The "fifth cheapest broadband in Europe" would indeed be a positive move. But it looks like that's another lie too.

Oreillycom are pulling the same stunt that they pulled last year, getting free publicity for a product that hasn't received regulatory approval yet, and before their competitors have had an opportunity to put together their own product plans. (oreillycom retail have known about this this planned price cut for a while, I'm sure. ESAT and UTV were only told about it today, along with the rest of us).

I don't have a blind hatred of oreillycom. I do have a blind hatred of dishonesty.

PhoenixRising

Originally posted by Ripwave
I don't have a blind hatred of oreillycom.

Sorry my mistake, you're obviously unbiased. :rolleyes:

Please explain this statement.

But this new pricing will still be more expensive than the prices currently available!

From what I can see the main competitors (ESAT and UTV) will be dearer. I can't find a service for sub €40 bar NTL which is only available to a handful of people. Will this not make eircom, the cheapest, assuming the ESAT and UTV don't follow suit ?

"cheaper broadband" would indeed be a positive move.

I'm paying €54.45/month at present, so at €40, it will be cheaper broadband.

Of course, you obviously don't care about the money, or you wouldn't have gone with oreillycom in the first place!

I resent statements like this, which I also see far too often on these boards. I'll buy what I want thank you very much. You don't know me or my reasons for going with eircom.

As I said before, I'm not an eircom fan - I just think we should have a more balanced argument, thats all.

Sarsfield

Its Eircom. Thats right Eircom. Not oreillycom, eircon, eshat voodoofone or anything else. These names are funny once and sound foolish soon after. Please stop it

edited 'cos I forgot o-poo. Alright, that one's still a little funny

spongebob

Belgium Holland and France supply cheaper (usually better as in Belgium) incumbent DSL for under €39.99 a month.

So does Telia in Sweden 250/64 for 299KR is €32.80 a month.

Remember that Eircom RADSL is a GUARANTEED 256k Product and UP TO 512k Product lest anybody forget

Sarsfield ...what about Meaty-Hoor?

M

bizmark

Lads try and keep it on topic please this isnt about wither the move by eircom was a good one or not its about the prices in other eu countrys compeared to our beloved eircom

Ripwave

Originally posted by PhoenixRising
Please explain this statement.

I've already explained it in posts in this forum, and the IOFFL forum.

The minimum contract is 12 months. €12*40 + installation (€60 wholesale) is €480 plus installation. If you sign up for UTV today, the first 12 months will cost you €495 including installation. I'm sure if installation was going to be free, they wouldn't have mentioned it in todays press release. oreillycom were charging for a modem before the current price promotion. There's no indication what they will do in March, but if you sign up today, it's free. Don't count on it being free in March.

From what I can see the main competitors (ESAT and UTV) will be dearer. I can't find a service for sub €40 bar NTL which is only available to a handful of people. Will this not make eircom, the cheapest, assuming the ESAT and UTV don't follow suit ?

And why wouldn't they follow suit? They just found out about this today, unlike oreillycoms retail arm, who've been meeting with their wholesale arm for weeks working this out. The wholesale price is only dropping €4, because this makes it extremely difficult for IOL to beat oreillycoms price, because of margin squeeze. (unlike UTV and IOL, oreillycoms retail arm doesn't actually have to hand over €23 to their wholesale arm when they sign someone up).

I'm paying €54.45/month at present, so at €40, it will be cheaper broadband.

Except that you won't be getting cheaper broadband, from what I hear. You'll continue to pay €54.45 and be upgraded to a 1MB service (whether you want it or not).

And then there's the little question of why eircom was charging you €18 more than the wholesale price (€27 plus VAT wholesale, €45 plus VAT retail), but suddenly they find that they only need a margin of €10 (€23 plus VAT wholesale, €33 plus VAT retail). Don't you feel like you've been ripped off for €8/month since you signed up?

As I said before, I'm not an eircom fan - I just think we should have a more balanced argument, thats all.

Is it just my imagination, or have you ignored my comments about dishonesty? You want balance, but dishonesty doesn't matter?

Ripwave

Originally posted by Sarsfield
Its Eircom. Thats right Eircom. Not oreillycom, eircon, eshat voodoofone or anything else. These names are funny once and sound foolish soon after.

It's not mean to be funny. I have a serious point to make.

"eircom" is a valuable brand, not least because a lot of people still feeel some misplaced loyalty to it because it's "our" telco. It's not. It's a privately held company run for the sole purpose of enriching the owners. They took €500 million of cash out of the company last year as a "dividend". Half a billion. One hundred euro for every man, woman and child in the country.

It's important to remind people of this. oreillycom isn't in any way disparaging, as many of the other names are. It's a serious, honest reflection of the fact that it's no longer "our" telco, and that it's a private company, and the most well known member of the crew who now own it is Tony O'Reilly, who also is closely associated with a significant part of this countries media, and that this needs to be borne in mind when reading coverage of Tony O'Reilly's telecoms company in Tony O'Reillys newspapers.

OfflerCrocGod

Ripwave were did you hear of the upgrade?; that is the kinda speed I'd like (prefer 2Mb) but I am in no mood to fork over cash to €ircon!. So what I'm wondering is have you heard wheter IOLBB and UTV will also be upgraded to 1Mb?; how about the cap there is no point in getting 1Mb if you can smash the cap in a couple of hours!. So everyone pays €23 for wholesale meaning UTV and IOLBB will also drop to €40 - will we be getting €35 ADSL from one of those two. If we do I think BB will finally start to take off.

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Ripwave
It's not mean to be funny. I have a serious point to make.

I know. And your point is very valid. But it took you 2 paragraphs to explain the meaing of oreillycom. oreillycom doesn't carry the message. Thats what I was trying to say.

Meaty-Hoor That'll keep me amused all day tomorrow! I'm a simple soul really.

Capt'n Midnight

No I don't welcome the move because they are just throwing crumbs.

It's a stalling tatic - the increase in line rental means that eircom BB customers are being subsidised by non-BB customers (>90%) so for the average user the price has actually gone UP.

Yeah that bit about using line rental to pay for BB rollout, didn't the govt already give them subsidised fibre etc. surely part of the €492m? could have been used for BB investment..

As long as they look like they are doing something then the pressure is off them and the politicans (and comreg?) can pat themselves on the back.

Please NTL, rollout telephony over cable ...

bizmark

Lads get back on topic please or ill have to start deleteing/moveing topics in order to clean up the thread

You can make your own topic to discuses if this is a good or bad thing or if excitisting eircom broadband users will be upgraded to 1 Meg but this thread is for compeering prices against other Eu countries.

I swear Boards is amazing for topic drift Form the price of broadband in Holland to a long post explaining a funny name for eircom

Kristok

sorry for staying off topic but there is no hope of going to 1mb, the starter is radsl the 1mb service is the normal dsl and its not just a matter of flicking a switch to turn radsl into a 1md service. If theres a price drop it will apply to all starter customers old and new.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Kristok
sorry for staying off topic but there is no hope of going to 1mb, the starter is radsl the 1mb service is the normal dsl and its not just a matter of flicking a switch to turn radsl into a 1md service.

And your source for this is?

No doubt, there will be some RADSL customers whose lines won't be able to sustain a 1MB signal. I have no reason to believe that this will stop oreillycom charging them for it!

cmdrpaddy

the incumbent is still the "default" choice of Sean Citizen who just goes with whoever is most familiar

The problem with this is that in a country like belgium cable internet access (NTL) was available a good while before Belgacom supplied ADSL. Most communes had TV supplied by certain cable companies and these companies were generally cheaper and provided a better service than Belgacom.

Ripwave

ComReg made a presentation called Broadband in Ireland to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources last June. I've attached one of the graphs in that presentation. And sure enough, if you round all the other prices up to the nearest Euro, Eircom slips in there at the "fifth cheapest in Europe". What do you think? Is this the source of McRedmonds dodgy claim?

Capt'n Midnight

Huh ?
So against MAY last year we are now the ffifth cheapest.
Except
- the Denmark figure includes line rental.
- And it only lists incumbants.
- And I'm sure some of the others have dropped prices too.
How does it compare to current prices when you include line rental ????

Note: In Italy you can get Govt grants for BB

Also if you are into irony page 31 pointing out how we should be ahead of EU average for BB uptake based on our other use of technology.

OfflerCrocGod

The thing that really makes me laugh is the fact that ESAT are right next to Eircon on the chart and it's quite evident that ESAT are cheaper:p. Why was ESAT included when it's not the owner of the lines?.