Penelty Point Success

Cork

Road Fatalitys are down to a level not seen in 40 years.

This is some achievement as there were no too many cars in Ireland in 1965.

It is a pity that such a simple system was not introduced years ago as it would have saved lives.

Still - It is a worthwhile development.

seamus

It's been up and down though. Some months have seen big increases, others have seen big decreases. If no-ne dies between now and New Year's (unlikely ) then we'll be at the lowest level since 1963...

Someone with a statistics fetish (/me looks at Victor) might do up a little graph corrollating the months that had low deaths this year with when Brennan made another speil about points

Beëlzebooze

I still find it laughable that the powers that be try to curb the road deaths by introducing penalty points, whilst the most lives would be saved by educating trafic participants.

therecklessone

I say credit where its due. Its been a good start, but a hell of a lot more needs to be done.

If Brennan and friends think they can rest on their laurels, then they should think again. Those figures will rise again if they fail to address the standard of driving on Irish roads, and they need to introduce a dedicated traffic corps. Speeding checks need to be completely random, on every road in the country. And lets get the Gardaí down the road from pubs that are known to be frequented by drink-drivers, on a regular basis, and not just at Christmas.

Kell

Hmmn-

I actually think the whole lot is laughable. Speaking as one that has driven from east to west and vice versa at early hours of the morning and late in the evening maintaining a steady 75-95, I can honestly say that the lack of cops is deplorable. Throw in murky weather and you can be guaranteed that you wont see nor sniff a single speed gun.

So, I have come to the following conclusion- cops dont come out before 8.30 in the morning. If they did they would catch 100+ drivers every morning ploughing their way from outside Rochfords Bridge Dublinward. They also dont come out after 9pm (at least on the Galway-Dublin road). If they did, they would have caught me in excess of the limit at least 30 times this year. Now either I have been extraordinarily lucky or something is seriously wrong with the policing of the laws.

As well as that, can someone explain to me exactly what the ruling is on drink driving i.e. does being caught mean automatic disqualification for a year? Becuase if it isnt, then it f*cking well should be.

Oh and another rant- something like 90% of all road accidents occur on single carriageway roads yet 90% of Ireland is carpeted by appallingly badly surfaced single carriage roads. Now when the gov't finally figure that bit out and start giving us decent f*cking roads to drive on, mebbe we'll see the biggest reduction in road deaths ever.

K- :mad:

Villain

Originally posted by Kell

So, I have come to the following conclusion- cops dont come out before 8.30 in the morning. If they did they would catch 100+ drivers every morning ploughing their way from outside Rochfords Bridge Dublinward. They also dont come out after 9pm (at least on the Galway-Dublin road). If they did, they would have caught me in excess of the limit at least 30 times this year. Now either I have been extraordinarily lucky or something is seriously wrong with the policing of the laws.

I had a thread on this a long time ago, I have been driving 400 miles a week since June and I have seen the cops twice and in the exact same place where the road is 3 lanes wide. The cops don't come out once the sun go's down.

Up to the week before xmas 333 people had died on the roads the last 3 all in one night and all after night fall.

People also have to remember that cars a lot safer now than what they were 40 years ago, I would like to see some facts on the number of serious injuries this year from RTA's.

The Minister has done some good but not near enough, they announced this week that there wasn't going to be a seperate Traffic Core set-up, why the fuc.k not???

It's a fuc.king joke you can drive back roads at night and do 100mph and NEVER EVER get caught but if you do 80 on a motorday in broad daylight the chances are you will get caught. It's all one big joke

Kell

Originally posted by irish1
if you do 80 on a motorday in broad daylight the chances are you will get caught. It's all one big joke

I remember when the points sytem came out Conor Faughnan from the AA was quoted as saying something along the lines of "lets see the system fully in use on roads that are dangerous rather than on dual carriageways and motorways where it is much safer to be over the speed limit". In the same newspaper as the quote, the front page photo's were of the cops on the N11 duall carriageway making a mockery of the system on its first day. Ah well.

K-

GreeBo

Speaking as one that has driven from east to west and vice versa at early hours of the morning and late in the evening maintaining a steady 75-95, I can honestly say that the lack of cops is deplorable.

Its assholes like you that are the phucking problem mate!

You sound like one of those "If I dont get caught, its not illegal" idiots.

Why you feel the need to drive @90mph is beyond me, unless dickheads like yourself cop on,(pardon the pun!) no amount of police presence will stop road deaths.

dahamsta

That the best you can come up with Cork? Penalty points? Why am I not surprised?

Hands up who wants to hear a list of Eff-Eff achievements in 2003 from Cork!

adam

Villain

Originally posted by dahamsta
That the best you can come up with Cork? Penalty points? Why am I not surprised?

Hands up who wants to hear a list of Eff-Eff achievements in 2003 from Cork!

adam

Yea and maybe Sparks can draw up a list of FF's broken promises

Kell

Originally posted by redoxan
Its assholes like you that are the phucking problem mate!

You sound like one of those "If I dont get caught, its not illegal" idiots.

Why you feel the need to drive @90mph is beyond me, unless dickheads like yourself cop on,(pardon the pun!) no amount of police presence will stop road deaths.

Of course speeding is illegal. So is smokin pot, being drunk in a public place, not having all your lights working correctly, blocking a yellow box rah rah rah.

No- the point I am trying to make is that most will continue in their erroneous ways unless rapped across the knuckles.

You assume that my driving above the speed limit makes me an unsafe driver? Speed is not the issue you muppet. Inexperienced drivers, poor roads etc etc et al are the problems. I have never put anyones life at risk including my own. Speed is one thing, bad driving is another and one does not automatically consitute the other.

But then again, you wont be interested in my answers to your abuse as you've already made up your mind. By the way, in all honesty, can you say that you've never bent a law?

Just for the record, in case anyone is listening or interested, I drive quickly as the quickest route from A to B not because I get some intense thrill out of braking a law or because I think I am fúcking brilliant.

K-

GreeBo

You assume that my driving above the speed limit makes me an unsafe driver?

Err well yeah, I do actually, and so do most people, thats probably why they set speed limits in fact, wow, cosmic.

Speed is not the issue you muppet

How exactly is speed not the issue in a topic called "Penalty Points Success"???


Speeding is unsafe, there is no getting away from that fact, and Im sure you are the best driver in the world and could drive while putting on your makeup and shaving, but most people think you shouldnt, in the same way that most people stick to a limit set out by law.

If you are going to continue to speed like a moron until you get caught or crash, you are a fool and I hope its only yourself who gets hurt, and not some "muppet" doing 40 who got rear-ended by you. :mad:

bonkey

Originally posted by Kell
Oh and another rant- something like 90% of all road accidents occur on single carriageway roads yet 90% of Ireland is carpeted by appallingly badly surfaced single carriage roads.

At the risk of setting off another rant...

90% of the accidents occurring on 90% of the roads means that they have the same accident rate as the other 10% of roads (which have the remaining 10% of accidents).

This would imply that they are no more dangerous...not that we need better roads.

jc

mike65

Originally posted by Kell
I have never put anyones life at risk including my own. Speed is one thing, bad driving is another and one does not automatically consitute the other.

K-

I agree with the second part of the above...the first sounds like a hostage to fortune. How do you know you have never put anyones life in danger?

Mike.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Kell
blocking a yellow box rah rah rah.

Block a yellow box will ya? Why I oughta...:mad:

Seriously, it amazes me to hear apologists for breaking speed limits claim that they are safe drivers, and are the best judge of what speed they should drive at. By that reasoning, I can drive past a school at 50mph just as the kiddies are on their way out the gate, because I'd never put anyone's life at risk :rolleyes:

Hands up who thinks they are a bad driver? Anyone? Doesn't mean we are all angels on the road though, does it?

People will only obey speed limits when there is a real chance of being caught breaking the limit. And thats on all roads, motorways/dual carraigeways/country boreens the lot. Random speed checks should be the norm, and without the warning sign. You shouldn't need a heads up, you should just obey the law.

Maybe when we learn to respect the rules of the road there is a chance that speedlimits will be adjusted to reflect our new mature attitude to driving. Maybe...

Zombrex

Originally posted by Kell
You assume that my driving above the speed limit makes me an unsafe driver? Speed is not the issue you muppet.

Speed is one thing, bad driving is another and one does not automatically consitute the other.

Are you taking the piss?

Driving above the speed limit is bad driving you muppet.

Just like the idiots who joyride around Dublin thinking they will never lose control of the car till they rap it around a tree, your over confidence in your driving ability and the limits of the control system on your car, is truly scary.

The speed limit isn't some random number made up to piss you off. Above the speed limit on a road it is impossible for anyone including yourself to judge and react to any potentional accidents, such as kids running out. At very high speeds on motorways your breaking distance is huge, your reaction time is nill. You are putting your life in your hands of the gods because you are basically screwed if anything out of the ordinary happens. You cannot react to anything at high speed. It is pure luck, nothing to do with you being a good driver. You have been lucky.

Speed is the number one issue.

Thorbar

I think someone doing 35 mph and sticking to the middle of the road is as much a danger as someone who's going 70 mph and up. I generally stick to around 60-65 if I'm on a good road and I don't mind doing around 50-55 if the road or weather is dodgy. But its the auld grannies in their micras who hug the center line at a break neck speed of 35 mph that get to me. Only time I really get angry and take risks is when I'm over-taking these muppets.

Also from personal experience going 95 mph is dangerous no matter how skilled you or the standard of your car or driving ability, you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

seamus

Originally posted by Wicknight
The speed limit isn't some random number made up to piss you off.

Actually, they are speeds primarily picked so that they are within the acceptable risk zone of a majority of drivers. Interesting study here - http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html ...
That's not to say that it's safe drive above that limit, but that it's allowed that a certain amount are going to drive above the limit no matter what, so the aim is keep the speeders at a reasonable speed.

Above the speed limit on a road it is impossible for anyone including yourself to judge and react to any potentional accidents, such as kids running out.

That's highly ambiguous and debatable. You may have a better chance to deal with and react to hazards doing 40mph in free moving city traffic (10mph over the limit) than you would doing 40mph in no traffic on a windy back road in the Wicklow mountains (20mph underneath the limit).
I would maintain that motorways are easily safe enough for travelling upto 90mph, but this speed is beyond the capabilities of too many drivers and too many vehicles, so could never be viable.

Zombrex

Originally posted by seamus

I would maintain that motorways are easily safe enough for travelling upto 90mph

It is "safe" as long as absolutely nothing happens. If anything out of the ordinary happens you are screwed, because you do not have the time to react. That is why you get huge pile ups on motorways caused by one car breaking to avoid a fox, because, even a "safe" speeds, people and the cars they are in, cannot react in time to something happing up the road.

Again, it is down to pure luck, the luck that nothing will go wrong in front of you. If you are lucky you can travel down the motorway at 200mph and you will be fine. But it is nothing to do with the driving ability of the driver.

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
Someone with a statistics fetish (/me looks at Victor) might do up a little graph corrollating the months that had low deaths this year with when Brennan made another speil about points

Sorry, I had it done about a fortnight ago (yes, ), but hadn't read this thread until now. Will post it up during the week.

I think six months were record lows for the 1998-2003 period, three were average, but another three well **above** average.

I think penalty points have worked, but the publicity needs to be worked on more and the rest of the offences need to be brought on board ASAP. One place I would be very critical of is that penalty points were talked about for 5 years, but only implemented after the election, which cost several hundred lives and billions of euros.

mr_angry

I think some of the "good drivers" on this thread seriously need to re-read their braking distances, not to mention their reaction times.

For the record, the "grannies" in their micra are responsible for the same amount of accidents as people like Kell. However, the difference is that they result in significantly less fatalities. I almost always drive within the speed limit, and I thoroughly enjoy driving. I see no reason to save 10-15 minutes by doing an extra 20mph in bad weather, and putting everybodys life in jeapordy.

Kell

Originally posted by therecklessone
Block a yellow box will ya? Why I oughta...:mad:

Seriously, it amazes me to hear apologists for breaking speed limits claim that they are safe drivers, and are the best judge of what speed they should drive at. By that reasoning, I can drive past a school at 50mph just as the kiddies are on their way out the gate, because I'd never put anyone's life at risk :rolleyes:

First sign of a muupet is one that jumps to conclusions like the previous few posters. Again, why do you all assume that me driving between 75 and 95mph on a NATIONAL ROUTE from Dub-Galway which can accommodate between 6 & 8 cars widthwise, automatically means that I drive at 50/60 in a 30mph zone such as city centre roads/housing estate etc, where I categorically do not.

But then again, none of you who posted comments such as the above will be interested in that last point as you werent interested in my last comments from previous posts i.e. driving above the limit is the quickest way from A to B and not some insane obsession with breaking a law. To answer someone who wondered why I would drive above 85 in the first place? At 5am in the morning it means a 2.5hr trip to Dublin from Galway instead of a 4hr one.

K-

GreeBo

To answer someone who wondered why I would drive above 85 in the first place? At 5am in the morning it means a 2.5hr trip to Dublin from Galway instead of a 4hr one.

Ohh fair enough so, I didnt realise that your time was so vitally important.

The fact that you drive at 95 mph is enough, it doesnt matter what you do anywhere else.
You just dont seem to get it,
IF YOU DRIVE THAT FAST, YOU NEEDLESSLY PUT LIVES AT RISK!

To try to redeem yourself by pointing out that its "not some insane obsession with breaking a law" is just plain stupid, I could care less why you do it, just stop doing it a$$hole.

and as for Thorbar

I think someone doing 35 mph and sticking to the middle of the road is as much a danger as someone who's going 70 mph and up.

You my good man, are a moron.
If someone is doing 35 in a 35 zone, and you are ignorant enough to condem them because you think that they are not as cool a driver as you are, then you are a big shiny dick.

Heres hoping that on one of your overtaking manoeuvres, you meet a cement truck.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Kell
First sign of a muupet is one that jumps to conclusions like the previous few posters. Again, why do you all assume that me driving between 75 and 95mph on a NATIONAL ROUTE from Dub-Galway which can accommodate between 6 & 8 cars widthwise, automatically means that I drive at 50/60 in a 30mph zone such as city centre roads/housing estate etc, where I categorically do not.

But then again, none of you who posted comments such as the above will be interested in that last point as you werent interested in my last comments from previous posts i.e. driving above the limit is the quickest way from A to B and not some insane obsession with breaking a law. To answer someone who wondered why I would drive above 85 in the first place? At 5am in the morning it means a 2.5hr trip to Dublin from Galway instead of a 4hr one.

K-

Ah yes, because insulting me will make your point all the more valid. Muppet...the last refuge of a scoundrel.

For the record, I never said that because you disregrad the speed limit on a national road, then you automatically drive above the limit in a 30 zone. What I said was that if I, or another individual, applied your reasoning regarding speed limits, then I could drive above the limit in a 30 zone and claim that was justified because I'm a good driver and know what speed is safe.

If you want to break the speed limit on regular occassions thats your choice. I believe you are showing poor judgement (to save that amount of time on the N4 you'd need to do 85+ for a long time, and thats a sh*t road full stop). But there are many like you, who think they are the best judge of their driving and do exceed the limit in 30/40 zones. You are in no position to judge their actions.

Sparks

Hate to break it to you reckless, but kell actually has a point in that the safe driving speed limit has got squat to do with the legal speed limit - and Kell, reckless is correct in saying that the safe driving limit is not necessarily higher than the legal limit - often, in fact in the majority of cases, it's far lower. Back roads with 60mph limits come to mind. Anecdotal case in point - new year's eve I'm coming onto the N11 and on the roundabout at the top of the slip road, I'm doing about 15 mph with no acceleration or braking, and the car goes out of control and tries to swap ends. At 15 mph, which was half the legal limit at that point.

So there's the glitch - the safe driving speed limit depends on many things - the quality of the road surface, the environmental conditions, the condition of the car and it's associated features (traction control, ABS, etc...), the number of pedestrians in the area, the loading of the car and the skill of the driver, to name just a few. So if you were to try to use this speed limit, you'd have to have different limits for each and every car on the road at each and every point in space and time. That's a bit too complex. The legal limit may not be anywhere near as accurate, but it's a lot easier to manage logistically.

And since most of the time the safe limit is below the legal limit, I don't see much of a problem with it, with one or two minor exceptions (like 60mph limits on motorways and 30 & 40 mph limits on the straightways of the N11).

GreeBo

I'm doing about 15 mph with no acceleration or braking, and the car goes out of control and tries to swap ends

The point which has been mentionned earlier is, what does Kell think would have happened to you if you were doing his "safe" 95 mph?

Kell

Originally posted by redoxan
You my good man, are a moron.

If someone is doing 35 in a 35 zone, and you are ignorant enough to condem them because you think that they are not as cool a driver as you are, then you are a big shiny dick.

Heres hoping that on one of your overtaking manoeuvres, you meet a cement truck.

Yes- my time is that vitally important.

Leaving aside the subject of MY exceeding the speed limit where I deem to be totally safe i.e. long straight stretch of road, no cars, enough space for about 8 cars widthwise, why Redoxan do you jump to so many conclusions regarding peoples drivin habits? Do you assume that anyone that exceeds the limit is a boy racer intent on killing everyone? Did you assume that person above was referring to a car doing 35 in a 35 zone? My conclusion was they were doin 35 in a 60 zone. Why else would the poster be annoyed?

You also view speed as being the greatest evil of all in this debate, yet do you have a problem with Autobahns in Germany where there is no speed limit and far fewer accidents? All the people driving those roads are drivin the same cars as us, so do they also fall into your all encompassing category of being unable and unfit to drive at such a speed? Do you also assume that I am nineteen and am on a first provisional? If the answer is yes, then your assumptions do what the old addage mean them to and you are vastly mistaken.

Sparks- thank you. I also know what conditions merit what driving pattern I should take and I had a similar experience as yours early december across the sally gap where the car did swap ends at again 15mph in second gear and no acceleration. Where most of the objectors to my driving seem to fúck up is assuming that I get into car depress accelerator to floor in all conditions on all roads.

I entered into this debate using my quick driving speed as an example to illustrate how if the points were really that effective, why hasnt someone that has done quite as high a mileage as I do at frequently high speeds been caught yet, and no I am not saying that its OK if I dont get caught.

K-

bonkey

Originally posted by Kell
Where most of the objectors to my driving seem to fúck up is assuming that I get into car depress accelerator to floor in all conditions on all roads.

Actually, where they - and you - are fúcking up is by assuming that the mods will continue to sit back and allow this name-calling litany to continue.

If you really feel that people are insinuating this about you Kell, then might I make 2 suggestions :

1) Provide a quote, because every time you alleged this so far, someone has pointed out that this is not what they've said. Add in some insults, and this sums up pretty much that entire portion of the discussion so far.

2) Take it to a thread which is relevant. This discussion is supposed to be about the penalty point system, not whether you agree with Kell's driving, and/or the speed limits.

I may be wrong, but last I heard (November, it would have been), not a single driver in Ireland at that point had had their license taken off them based on the points system. Personally, I find it amazing that anyone could t
tout the "success" of a system with such a track record...especially (as Victor pointed out) where the "success" evidence is questionable.

jc

mr_angry

The fact is, Kell, that if you are doing 80-95 on any road, and a vehicle in front of you suddenly halts (e.g. he himself is involved in an accident), then you have virtually no chance of reacting without ploughing straight into the back of him. Now, you may have certain mitigating circumstances in that you leave at 5am, but that does not negate the fact that you are being reckless with not just your own life, but other people's too.

If you can't be bothered to get up in time to drive safely to and from work, then I suggest you either:
a) Move to Dublin
b) Get a job closer to Galway.

At least that way you wont be putting good drivers' lives in jeapordy.

Sparks

Originally posted by redoxan
The point which has been mentionned earlier is, what does Kell think would have happened to you if you were doing his "safe" 95 mph?

I couldn't have - my little car has an absolute, can't-go-any-faster-boss, limit of just under 80mph. And that's downhill, with a following wind, and with the dash vibrating so much it's like there's a live jackhammer in the glove compartment....

Zombrex

Originally posted by Kell
Leaving aside the subject of MY exceeding the speed limit where I deem to be totally safe

That statement is what people object to Kell, not whether you are a "boy racer" or not.

I don't think you are trying to crash your car (at least i hope not). But you don't get to decide what is safe. You are an unsafe driver not because you want to kill yourself, but because you do not respect the restrains put on you by the rules of the road. You deem yourself to be better than the rest, to have to capacity to know what is safe, which is ridiculous because as I have stated it is impossible for you to know what is going to happen and if anything does happen you are screwed.

You will be perfectly safe banging down the motorway at 95mph as long as you are lucky and nothing happens. You will be perfectly safe banging down a national road at 95mph as long as nothing happens. But you cannot, and are (rightly) not allowed to judge this yourself. The risk that something will happen on a motorway is a lot smaller than on a narrow national road, and as such the speed limit is higher, but it is not zero risk zone. There is always a risk.

You either follow the rules of the road or you don't Kell, there is no middle ground. You are an unsafe driver and a danger to others, simply due to the fact that your over confidence lets you take higher risks and disregard the laws when you feel like it.

The scarest thing about drivers like you isn't that you break the law but the fact that you don't see anything wrong with doing so. You say you don't take risks or speed on local roads. What if you thought it was safe to do so? You are asking everyone to trust you, to trust that you know what you are doing.

You don't get to decide what is safe.

Victor

Originally posted by Kell
You also view speed as being the greatest evil of all in this debate, yet do you have a problem with Autobahns in Germany where there is no speed limit and far fewer accidents? All the people driving those roads are drivin the same cars as us, so do they also fall into your all encompassing category of being unable and unfit to drive at such a speed? Do you also assume that I am nineteen and am on a first provisional? If the answer is yes, then your assumptions do what the old addage mean them to and you are vastly mistaken.

There is no Autobahn to Longford and as far I remember, Germany has higher road death rates than us.

star gazer

Penalty points worked because the perception was, that if you speed you will get points, if you collect six do not pass go, go straight to suspension from driving. The Gardaí didn't have the resources and the system wasn't compuiterised. Almost all the lives saved were saved in the first few months of the introduction. It is a great pity that the implementation wasn't up to the initial success of the new system.

Victor

Compared to 1998 - 2002, 2003 worked out as follows

Jan	Record low
Feb	Record low
Mar	Above Average
Apr	Well Below Average
May	Near record high
Jun	Near record high
Jul	Record low - but still very high
Aug	Record low - but still very high
Sep	Record low
Oct	Average - but still very high
Nov	Average - but still very high
Dec	Record low

Total	Record low (historical)

sci0x

Good to see its working.
Any ideas how many ppl have already lost all 12 penalty points, if any?

sceptre

Zero so far denis.

Three or four people have 10 though. Heavy betting a while back that the first person with 12 was going to be from Waterford but no developments there yet either.

sci0x

Oh thats good to hear. The guards are very strict!.

My principle who nver broke the limit in his life was pulled over and asked for his license (or something). And he couldnt provide it so he drove away with 2 points taken from him. He drove down the road and found it so he returned to the guard with it thinking the guard would take off the 2 points again. However he was not wearing his seatbelt when he returned and had 2 more points deducted from him hehe.

Victor

Originally posted by sci0x
Oh thats good to hear. The guards are very strict!.

Hardly - they are handing them out at a rate of about one ticket per Garda per month.

dahamsta

Redefining "success", especially for Cork.

Penalty points system flaw undermines success claim

18/01/04 00:00

By Sean Mac Carthaigh
The government has admitted that no one has been tasked with obtaining crucial statistics on the drivers' penalty points system.

This means it has no accurate way to assess whether it is having any effect on road deaths.

Meanwhile, The Sunday Business Post has established that, while a massive 27 per cent of all penalty points are being imposed on Dublin drivers, just 13 per cent of road deaths occur in the capital.

This undermines the correlation between the dangerous driving that attracts penalty points and the fatal accidents the system is designed to curb.

[...]

Victor

Meanwhile, The Sunday Business Post has established that, while a massive 27 per cent of all penalty points are being imposed on Dublin drivers, just 13 per cent of road deaths occur in the capital.

A biased piece of journalism if I've ever seen one, typical of the SBP and just highlights the ability of journalists to only see one statisitic in an entire book.

Part of the problem is that the system hasn't been extended fully to account fo rdefective vehicle, dangerous driving etc. Dublin actually suffers one of the highest accident rates - it's just that they aren't fatal - it would be interesting to see how the percentages affect overall qulity of life. This follows a sustained campaign by the local authorities in the county to discourage traffic away from inappropriate roads, previously fatal accidents are now injury accidents. From 1997-2001 Dublin City **only** accounted for **all** of the deaths reductions in the entire **country**.

Victor

Further discussion and a wordy rebuke from me.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135924